Progress for 24 January 2008 Thinking more about how to do the Helix, and found ppuinn's blog on all about helixes. Read it once so far, probably going to have to read it again yet Worked out dimensions for the helix support plate and appropriate timber framing to go under it. | She'll be 1.05m by 1.2m once trimmed. All the framing is just sitting pretty, it has to be screwed together yet; although it's (mostly) drilled already. The space where the pile of electric drills is sitting will be cut out as the access hole, and the little short timbers off to the top/right are staggered like that deliberately - you can't make a perfect + shape out of timbers screwed together flat </voice of experience> Looking at it again, it probably wants a couple more cross-pieces yet.
"Spring" Layout Party Just for fun, I've volunteered for the Sixth Annual International Spring Layout Party Never mind that it's not spring in at least half the world At the end of 24 January 2008, my "layout" looks like this: | | (click to enlarge) I shall achieve one or more of the following before the end of Friday 21 March: run a train on the staging deck have a blue backdrop on the wall for the main deck run a train up the helix
Tell about the dimensions on the helix, please... minimum and maximum radii, grade, ramp width, total rise from bottom to top, other tangents coming off the helix besides at the top and bottom? How thick will the subroadbed be? ...and the more important follow-up question: How much clearance will you have between the top of the railheads where the track enters the bottom of the helix, and the underside of the subroadbed forming the ramp of the 1st loop where it passes over the entering track? I had to do some surgery on 2 of my helixes to ensure adequate clearance at the bottom entrance to the helix. This first pic is taken from the inside of the helix and shows how I cut the OSB panel under the Homasote to give myself some more clearance. Sort of drifting away from the helix clearance issue to another helix topic that you will eventually have to consider...making the transition off the sceniced layout into the unsceniced helix: The trees are on the inside of this helix because operators will be standing directly in front of the helix entrance and can easily see into the unsceniced portion of the helix. So I put the trees up to block people from seeing the inside of the helix. This second picture shows the helix entrance from the outside.
I just looked back through the posts about the kink on the curve and couldn't tell from the picture...when you cut your gap, did you use plastic insulators to bridge the gap and keep the rails aligned or did you just go with cutting the rails but not the webbing/ties underneath the rails? With Peco Flex track webbing/ties designed with spaces between the ties so often on both sides, there may not be enough strength in the plastic to overcome the metal rail's urge to straighten out, especially if you only secured the ties down 2 or 3 inches away from where you cut the gap, so you get a kink after 10 minutes or 12 hours. Ken (Cleggie) talked about using adhesives to hold the track down. If using adhesive continuously (i.e., no stretches of track without glue holding every tie in place), I'd guess there wouldn't be much kinking possible, except for the portion of the rails where the plastic tie plates and spikes that hold the rails to the plastic ties get cut or broken. At those spots, the metal of the rail will be following its natural urge to straighten out and will slide to the outside of the curve causing a kink. On my layouts, I've held track down using track nails into Homasote about every 2 or 3 inches (a little less than 2 to 3 inches on curves, a little more on straight tracks). When I have to join rails on a curve, I try to solder the joint before I nail the track down...and if I need a gap on a curve (which I deliberately avoid if at all possible), then I've often had to put nails on the outside of the outside rail to keep it smoothly curved. Ummm...stick with me here...this next wording is going to get a little convoluted... The "outside" of the curve of the inside rail is between the two rails where the wheel flanges roll. Because the nail heads stick up too far, I can't put a nail between the rails on the outside of the curve of the inside rail (if that phrasing makes sense!?!?), so I rely on the plastic ties to keep the rails appropriately gauged. This works fine unless the plastic spikes on the inside (between the rails) of the inside rail or on the outside of the outside rail get cut or broken. When that happens, then the track gets a kink because it is no longer being held in correct gauge. I've had some success temporarily pinning the rails where I need them to be and then Super Glueing the rails to the plastic ties where the molded spike had broken or been cut. But be warned...in two places, I've also had the SuperGlued section suddenly fail weeks/months later, probably because I was too conservative with the glue, and over time, the normal expansion and contraction of the materials broke the seam. Guys that hand-lay track sometimes use circuit board ties every few inches to solder the rails at the proper gauge...and in the middle of the tie, they just cut a gap across the copper facing on the top of the tie so there is no short. If you are ambitious and want to set up a reliable gap on a curve, I'd guess you could cut a 1 inch square of copper clad circuit board, cut gaps in the copper cladding in the form of a plus sign so Rail A is gapped from Rail B and Electrical Block 1 is gapped from Electrical Block 2, and then solder the rails accordingly. (Hey, all you hand-layers! Chime in on this idea, please...will it work?)
on helices: Spiral helix using ppuinn's excel tables Earlier revision trackplan, but still mostly accurate, the main deck is supposed to look like: Helix will be 13"R on the bottom, actually starting over by Support 2 (right, the apparent dead-end above); so I'm going to have to tune the run-up (more now that my helix footprint is down and I know precisely how tall it is). Oval, 4" straight, 18.5"R on support 5/5b where it leaves (left, blue track). 5.5 turns at 2% max grade for about 12" of climb (metric 300mm = 11.81") 1" wide roadbed, thinking 7mm ply at present, might include cork for the heck of it. Supports are either 17mm 7-ply plywood or 12mm MDF, I'll have to see which cuts and takes screws better. Maximum centre-line width is 37.5" (953mm) and space to door is 1050mm, so there's at most 4" around the outside of the helix (2 each side). Maximum centre-line length is 40" thanks to the oval and it's about 3" from the wall. One exit part way, on turn 5 support 1 (green track, right by the door above the handle!) it comes back out and climbs along the front of the Main Deck to make my reverse loop - so I can run continuous on the main deck. The brown crooked line across the front of the helix is the notional scene end; my thought is to make a jagged mountain type thing that both rails have decided to punch under; so sloping up over the helix, tunnel mouths on the tracks, and continue the mountain down a little until there's a fascia. Probably it'll need a black fascia-equivalent between decks to hide the ugly helix; and I'll dream up some train-detection scheme so they don't get lonely / lost during the climb. Now that the footprint is down, I've tried looking at the staging lead-in track, and I don't like it; it runs with varying curvature under two supports, with very little clearance on the first - meaning structural weakness there. So I might re-jig that section to come out between support 1 and 2 and curve around the outside for longer to meet the ladder. On kink experiments: The track was laid with continuous glue and no pins (except while the glue cures). The track and webbing both were cut. Track was not pinned. The point of the exercise was to emulate a gap between modules, since my layout will be sectional if I can do so - it simplifies wiring and scenicing, at the cost of more timber and having frustrating arguments with flextrack What I was looking at this time was a four-brand "bake off". Abuse each track (as is my wont) and see how they handle it. All of the tracks kinked a little - proving again that gaps on flextrack on curves are bad if you can avoid them. The Peco kinked worst and is the only one that derails from it. What I will probably do on my staging deck at module joins is lay some blank PCB I've picked up across the module join and glue it down solidly (I see screws involved as well). Solder each rail to the copper, then cut gaps through the copper but not the fibreglass between each rail and between each track - so all rails are electrically isolated but mechanically locked into place. Then dremel through the tracks+PCB between modules along the line-of-join, so that they are separate. With the soldering and the single sheet of fibreglass, it should be rigid and robust; just ugly, so I will need a way to disguise it on the main deck. For non-module-joining curves (i.e. the Helix), I fully intend to glue down every tie, solder the join and if needed spike the ties around the join to make it flow smoothly. Hopefully that explains some of what I was/am doing. <fifth smilie goes here>
Track Plan Revision 7 As a prelude to building the actual track-holding modules for the Staging Deck (ooh), I attacked RTS with a big stick and a small tape-measure, and made my staging ladders "accurate". Main Deck: mostly unchanged Staging Deck: The compound ladder has been rejigged a little (but is still nasty) to keep constant radius where possible and straight tracks (sort-of red coloured) between points. This will make it easer to draw track centre-lines with a ruler! As well as the revised ladders, I've pulled the helix exit out sooner, to avoid having to punch large holes in the supports - now there's just one smaller hole - and the curve is constant radius again, so I can just draw one arc to get the centre-line.
Progress for 28 January 2008 Ahh, long weekend. Finally got the helix base up and started looking at other Layout Party goals. Put up more framing for the backdrops - including a decision to prep for a backdrop on the Staging Deck; as even a flat blue or black would look tidier than pink + white brackets Measured the deck separation to reply to ppuinn and discovered that when I dropped the staging for artistic reasons, I forgot to move the main deck too, and 7.5 turns of helix to get 14" of separation just won't fit <bang head on wall>. This lead to ripping up most of the backdrop framing (note absence of photos up to this point) and rescrewing it about 2" lower, so the deck brackets fit again. 12" of separation and 5.5 turns. | Hmm.. actual daylight messes with the camera some. Brackets in the middle of all that timber are now at the right height. I'm planning to bend the backdrop to about 12" around the corner, and come out about a foot over the window, so if the curtains are open they are hidden behind the backdrop to avoid spoiling the view! I don't want to wall over the window altogether, it provides Natural Light and Airflow to the room. With the improved track plan posted above, I took measurements and started building track-base boxes for the staging deck. My current plan is to have four little boxes (1x2 frames with ply tops) with track+cork glued to the top of that. If the boxes are (semi-)removable, that makes wiring and maintenance a little easier - assuming I can make module joins that don't have me pulling what's left of my hair out! Refer "Kink Experiments". I've built the first box for the corner without the ply top yet, and cut timber for the second. Now if I could just work out a reliable easy non-dangerous way to get my mitre saw to cut 15/75 degree angles..
Progress for 28 January 2008, Helix Helix White brackets still at the wrong height; but that's okay, they would collide with the track on the helix anyway! so they've been removed. I'll have to support the main deck some other way around the helix. Probably by using the helix supports, which will be located as noted in Teal (greeny colour). Staging deck enters/exits at #2 at 45-46" over floorsville; main deck mainly exits at #5 through those white brackets at 57" over floorsville, with the reverse loop exit back at #1 and 55.8" or so. The hole is usually 12" radius, except where it hits under-ply framing. There's only room for a small tool-ledge, so I'll have to leave the rest of the messes strewn across the workbench, which is almost reachable from under the helix anyway. The helix supports were located by use of calculator and ruler before the hole was cut - for anyone else building a helix, I recommend locating the supports first, then cutting the hole. It's a lot easier to draw a circle when you can put a nail in the centre! I also found time somewhere to go shopping and buy more timber, more fluorescent tubes, and marker pens in two different colours (helix drawing), as I also don't think pencil + cork would work too well. In conclusion: I've got the helix base up and ready for supports and a spiral slinky-style roadbed; although I won't know correct heights until the staging track is in place or at least ready to be laid. I've (eventually) gotten my horizontal battens for the backdrop up and around the corner, so I could staple up a backdrop whenever I get around to it. (before 21 March) I've measured all the dimensions for the staging deck boxes (trying not to have any joins on curves or cutting through turnouts - why tempt Murphy?) All(!) I need now is the free time to put tools to timber and timber to walls.
Progress for 2 February 2008 Aah, summer. Spent some quality time in the (hot) garage playing with power tools. I've managed to accomplish several things since monday: finished under window framing for turn-around ladder finished all four staging deck sectional boxes Attached lights above workbench cut plywood to fit all four boxes and the helix-end ladder Or, in pictures: | . | Hung a hardboard fascia under the staging deck over the workbench, so the fluorescent tubes aren't visible while sitting - I don't like bright lights in my field of view. Built a 1:1 mockup of the new helix-end ladder and test-fit it; principally to work out where and how to cut the plywood so it would fit, and not have any switches across a join I've ended up with the whole ladder on one module, looking like some sort of demented one-horned Viking! Things I Could Tomorrow / Next Week: Nail down plywood tops to boxes decide if the staging deck "needs" cork. It probably does, just in case I decide to scenic it later in life Wire up staging deck now, before all the sections are in the way permanently; including a sub-mission of Finding the DCC Command Centre So I'm several steps closer to actually having a "Layout" and even being able to "run trains".
How to name a ladder? Now that all the difficult-yet-easy steps are out of the way, it's time to get serious about this layout.. And work out what do I call the two staging deck yard ladders? If I had scenery and had worked out which way was North, it would be easy "(timetable) East Ladder" and "(timetable) West Ladder". When I had only one ladder, it was even easier - "Ladder" For now I'm calling the one on my left the "Helix Ladder" and the other the "Turn-around Ladder". Maybe Mountain ladder and Prairie ladder would be more accurate? Here's another view of "Mount Helix Timetable Elsewhere Ladder" to mull over: She's the one on my Left; the track which will lead to the main deck via the 5.5 turn helix; as such, she could be seen as the "escape" ladder, as well as the "entry" ladder. The one to my right merely leads to a 2' long lead track, for engines to escape and run-around the train to be useful again elsewhere. Obviously nowhere near as exciting or amazing, so a wonderful name is needed to stop her becoming embittered and cynical. Do cynical yard ladders cause more derailments than naive ones? And with that I throw the question open to the audience : What should I name the two yard ladders on my Staging deck? Just so I can refer to them unambiguously.
I've named the staging areas on my layout for the cities or yards they represent. There is also a fantasy town that represents the signature city of West Presence on a friend's freelanced West Presence Gateway RR that interchanges with the P&PU in N-Scale. If I need to refer to the ladder at one end or the other of any staging area or siding, I usually add East/North or West/South depending on the direction the line runs. I've labeled all 4 helixes by their location (Peoria, Bartonville, and Pekin for the surrounding cities and Kellar for the Branch it serves (which is named after a neighborhood the prototype Branch ran through)). If I need to refer to the top or bottom of the helix, I use the name of the town or siding that is closest outside the helix and most of my areas are based on what the prototype RRs called that section of their track. For example, at the bottom and top of the Bartonville Helix the track splits into 3 lines: P&PU, PT, and CNW. At the bottom of the helix I'll refer to the Bartonville Helix at P&PU Wolschlag or at CNW Hollis or at PT Sommer...even though all three tracks run through the same area on the layout and the prototype.
Progress for 5 February 2008: The Plywood Sea Managed to staple plywood tops to the boxes; and it looks Much Better now; almost like a Layout Room. | And a possibly better photo of the workbench with it's new ceiling Last layout I screwed the plywood tops down; this being tedious and requires fully charged drills (I have three cordless drills: Drill, Countersink, Screw). This layout I have decided to try Stapling the ply down - experimenting on the workbench first, the staging deck second, before the main deck. There seems to be a real trick to stapling 7mm ply down.. A 10mm staple will punch through cleanly; but with only 3mm in the timber it won't stay put. A 14mm staple will not punch through cleanly, standing proud and leaving a mess As the staples are not barbed or serrated, they are only friction fit, and tend to work loose over time So I have the following ritual. With no staples in the gun, staple the plywood sheet, to produce "dimples" With a small drill bit, drill through the ply at each end of the dimple when all dimples are placed and drilled, dust the sheet and the timber to remove sawdust glue the timber and press the plywood down staple plywood down with 14mm staples through the previously drilled dimples allow glue 24hr to cure before tapping staples flush with mallet and punch Someone remind me to post a reply in about two years to see how well the method worked in the end! So I have progress. Vaguely next will be to look towards wiring / organisation around the layout; drawing track centres; building subroadbed towards the helix. I will continue to resist the urge to lay track and run a train, as I feel that would be rushing things a bit too much at this stage.
Progress for somewhere in February 2008 Wow, no updates for two weeks. I've not been sleeping, I've been playing with Google Earth.. And doing some layout work in the interim. With the staging deck sections basically built, I want to do sort out some of the things around the layout area that will be harder when everything is bolted down. i.e. wiring. Step one: Fix the height of the bookshelves: | click to enlarge Now the lower ("general fiction") deck (just above the fan - it's summer) is at exactly the same height as the staging deck - what a coincidence. The next deck is exactly at main deck height. I have 2.1m of general fiction and 3.2m of science fiction. Magazines and other non-fiction are at the bottom of the shelves, along with wire and bits. | click to enlarge I've also slung up the main deck lighting - despite not having a main deck! 56W of fluorescent tubes provides ample lighting, possibly even too much. What's that what has appeared in the bottom right corner, behind the monitor? | click to enlarge Could that be transformers, DCC command station and DC and DCC throttles? I figure this corner is probably the best place for everything electrical to live. (I'm not kidding about the not sleeping, that Google Earth thing plus the Challenges Forum is a dangerous combo. Mmm.. geosleuth )
Progress for 18 February 2008 Tonight, I actually sat down and finished the wiring for the staging deck, framing. This is all the DCC / bus wires that are stuck to the permanent framing. Atop this sits (and plugs in) the sectional boxes, attached by the beige plugs that you might be able to see waving around in the photos. /\ from upon high left, helix end /\ from upon high right, command station end /\ from the room doorway /\ from the helix looking down the yard (they didn't look as good as thumbnails. Hurumph.) I've checked most of it for continuity and put DC volts onto it. No DCC yet; need to wire in the command station and the circuit breakers and ... Should check voltage drops - there being about 3m max of very expensive copper involved. 1.5mm² (about 15AWG) main lines and 0.75mm² (about 19AWG) section-feeders. Will probably use the 0.75mm² on the sections and maybe even something smaller for actual track feeders. As long as it's <1V of drop on the track, I'm winning. And that's where I'm at. From here the todo is: Cut fascia to hide the framing, wiring and most of the command station pile Paint fascia Hang sockets for cab bus off fascia Clean pile of tools off workbench. So I'm now one more step closer to running trains! (emoticon goes here)
Awesome thread I'm really enjoying seeing your progress and we are lucky to have Dave our own helix expert here as well. If you are ever in Sydney let me know you are welcome to come and operate the layout.
Progress for 24 February 2008 Thanks I'll let you know if I ever hop over the ditch. After doing all the wiring, my next step was the DCC: wire in the command station and breaker. It's in place and since I don't have any US quarters, I tested it by shorting the ends of the bus with a pair of pliers. It shuts down 100% of the time, although I'm not sure the breaker is catching it before the command station; will have to look at the settings - and the LED's aren't visible in that corner <scratch head> Need each district to go down without shutting down the whole "layout". (need to lay track so I can remove the air-quotes) Extreme close-up of command station / electronics pile: | (click to enlarge) After that, on to the fascia. In theory this is simple - the permanant framing which the staging deck sits on gets it's own fascia. Then each section of the staging deck gets another fascia which doesn't hide (much) of the existing one. So I've been taking 3mm thick hardboard and stapling it to the framework: | (click to enlarge) It turns out 6-axles and long-wheelbase fixed-driver engines aren't the only ones who hate S-curves. While trying to fold my hardboard around the curves, it up and exploded! twice! So I've had to divide the problem in twain, and I have a sharp angle on one corner instead of a smooth curve. /\ .. spot the knee-bend The layout looks a lot better with the fascia up.
Progress for 24 February 2008, part 2 So next to paint; two coats of flat black - toyed with a dark green or tan (the main deck is going to be desert / arid, so a brown should work for fascia); but then I considered that flat black was easy cheap on hand And this is the staging deck anyway! And with paint it looks even better. Are those brush strokes overly visible? Because those staples definately are In fact, the staples are so bad I'm going to have to find some other way to hang my main backdrop off the wall - having a beautiful blue sky marred by staples every few feet is just not workable. Thought I'd finish off with a kinda "where I'm at" for almost the end of February, 2008. /\ Right end looking towards yard /\ From the door looking into the room All zoomed out like this, those staples aren't overly visible at all. Hmm..
Thanks for the update. It is a very large project to build a complete layout. It is very much to your credit that you have posted the progress here for all to see. IMHO, it is progressing steady, steady, steady. Nice work! :thumbs_up:
Steady? Nah, I wanna run trains! Trying to walk a line between plan this thing in so much detail it's paralysing and I get nothing done; and rushing into things and making hasty mistakes. But it is a long road; fortunately all of the framing, wiring and 'civil engineering' is the part I like about the hobby. Things will probably change when I get the track down and start eyeing up the plywood scenery.. Even with my last layout, I found there were points in the construction I'd wished I'd stopped to take a photo. Hence I'm taking a lot more pictures this time around. Progress: Going with nails c/- my new electric nailer+stapler (nicer than spring-powered manual stapler, but less portable), I've hung the first piece of staging deck backdrop already. (click, enlarge, etc) Hold sheet in place, thwap nail home, and then use the nail punches and the baby sledge to drive the nail flush / inset a little. Overview: That's as far as I'm going across the window on the right. There will be another sheet on the left, I'll have to play with the helix a little to see where the backdrop has to reach to - no point making and painting something that will never be visible From here I get to sand, fill, sand and paint (lightly sand between coats, right?). Time to find those photos of Arizona "sky" blue..
I like the way you are doing things, it's looking good. :thumbs_up: The clatter of little wheels can't be far away.:tb-wink:
