Building the Duck River sub

Another ATSF Admirer Dec 30, 2007

  1. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    I have it in my head (again) to build a layout. I've decided to be charitable and start a thread about it. So, here goes...

    History:
    The third white man to ever see Duck River was an English Gentleman who, having emigrated here from the Old Country, thought the placid river in it's gentle valley would be the ideal site to establish a country manor and raise some Ducks.
    Consequently when the fourth and subsequent white men met this placid river with it's collection of water fowl, they named it Duck River.
    When the ATSF pushed west to reach California, they found Duck River a blessing and a curse; providing much needed water for the thirsty iron horse; providing a level path to follow for a while; but also requiring bridges and then replacement bridges when the fickle river washed them away.
    In the many decades since, diesel might has obsoleted the iron horse, the manor has long since crumbled, and many of the ducks have flown west for the winter; leaving puzzled tourists at the Duck River Water-tower Cafe (and Souvenirs) to wonder about the origin of the name.

    Setting:
    Somewhere south of Denver, Colorado; North of Tuscon, Arizona; East of Barstow, California and West of Kansas.
    An alternative history, where a river called Duck indeed exists in this region, somewhere reasonable for the ATSF to lay rails around it. (Google says there is an actual Duck River in Tennessee, but I'm not using that one)
    A land and a time where if SF and SP, or ATSF and BN were thinking about merging, they haven't started it yet - so 1979-1995.

    Givens and Druthers:
    • Room is a rectangle, about 9.5 x 10' (3.035 x 2.885m)
    • Room has to be shared with at least one computer and a fair few books, plus any other stuff that drifts past and sets up camp.
    • Entry door in the centre of the East wall
    • Window in the centre of the West wall, some access to window required (Layout across window is tolerable, covering window is not)
    • Closet in the north-west corner of the North wall
    • Need to maintain access to the closet
    • 13" minimum radius
    • Maximum mainline grade 3%
    • At least some continuous running, for mindless train-watching (reverse loop to reverse loop is fine)
    • DCC, usually one operator, sometimes maybe 2-3?
    • Maximum reach and thus layout depth = 2 feet, 24"
    • Eye-height = 63", so main layout height 57-59"
    • Second deck about 12" lower, so 45-47"

    Goals and Stages:
    In no particular order, things I see needing to be done / major milestones in the Progress domain:
    • Build a staging yard along the South wall, with a reverse loop around the helix area
    • Get track laid on the main deck of the South wall
    • Build a helix linking the two decks
    • Get track laid across the window and along the North wall
    • Make beautiful scenery on main deck of South wall
    From here we get to further goals, like
    • rework the staging yard to add scenery / address short-comings found with use
    • rework the main deck (south wall) once I decide how the switching / operating / scenery balance lies
    • extend scenery around more of the room
    • rework the main deck (north wall) once I actually achieve all of the above
     
  2. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    Room Overview

    Some photos of the space available. Click photo for a bigger version; thanks to RailImages.

    [​IMG] | [​IMG] | [​IMG]
    1. Looking East and North at the Bookshelves. The black+yellow spirit level is about layout height
    2. Looking South at computer, keyboard tray slides away to reduce depth to 24" for easy reach-into layout
    3. Looking South-East at workbench + layout shelves. The metalwork in midair is the Helix Space, at Staging Height.

    And since I can't seem to capture the essence of the room in one photo, an aerial view showing the basic room layout:
    [​IMG]
    (so the photos above were taking standing by the Closet)
     
  3. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    First Proposed Track Plan

    In order to start somewhere, and to start small, I've come up with the following track plan:
    [​IMG] | [​IMG]
    Main deck and staging.

    From these plans, I hope to turn the boring shelves seen in my last post into something more like:
    [​IMG]

    Salient Points:
    • seven staging tracks with only-slightly increased spacing. May change to six tracks with more spaces when I draw things 1:1 and test finger-fit
    • probable six lap stacked helix at 15" radius and 50mm (2") rail-head to rail-head rise. The Helix space is 1m square (39.4"), which is just a little too tight for a spiral helix with a total 12" rise with reverse loops around the outside
    • helix track length: 15.4m
    • main deck track length: 19.4m
    • scenic block in front of back track to visually separate tracks
     
  4. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    Progress for 30 Dec 2007

    Today I worked on framing for a backdrop; having determined that I can bend 1/8" generic hardboard dry to 12" without it snapping. But not to 8". :)
    Since my wall already has white metal brackets attached to each stud to hang the shelves off, I took my Dremel to some U-shaped Aluminum channel and added notches to make little anchors to hang wooden framing from the wall. Many many cut-off discs later, I have my first piece of 1x2 framing glued and clamped until it dries. Since I don't have enough clamps to do two frames at once, I will have to do the rest tomorrow :)

    I also created a preliminary track plan and a thread on TrainBoard to put it on.

    Using ppuinn's nifty Spiral Helix tables, I find that minimum 13" radius, 1.25" wide ramps and 39.4" maximum footprint, with no straight sides and no rise before / after the helix (i.e. my track plan pasted above) and a gradient of 2% gives me 8.9" rise on lap 5 support 5, which is the last support before hitting the door :)
    A gradient of 3% gives 13.4" at the same place; so it might be do-able with a 3% gradient.

    3% would give me an excuse to run double-head on an otherwise short train :)
     
  5. ppuinn

    ppuinn Staff Member

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    I would strongly urge you to avoid the 3% grade...even if double or triple heading might look great. Shoot for 2% and, only if you absolutely have to, settle for 2 and 1/8th or 2 and 1/4 percent grade.

    How flexible are you willing to be to achieve the 2% grade?
    If you go with a 1 inch wide ramp, and 7 inches of straight sides on an oval, then your spiral will fit behind the door and you can rise 12 inches in 6.5 loops. If you change the throat into your staging tracks by bringing it across the front of the helix, and climbing the helix the other way around, then you should be able to fit in 8 staging tracks that are about 6 feet long.
    At the top and back of the helix, the upper level track will split so that one track comes forward to pass along the front of the layout and the other goes hidden along the back part of the upper level.

    Is there any possibility of making a staging return loop under the window or making an upper level AND a lower level lift out to cross in front of the closet...or does window access (and real estate negotiated from other family members) preclude such an arrangement? Having a 2-ended yard instead of a stub yard and having the reversing loop after the staging tracks would make staging WAAAAY easier...i.e., no need to back any train all the way around a reversing loop in order to sent it out again...,just pull around the reversing loop before pulling into staging at the end of a run, or else leave staging by way of the reversing loop at the beginning of each run.
     
  6. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    Progress for 31 Dec 2007

    Looking at framing for backdrop again; and it fell off the wall :(
    It seems glue + me + timber + metal != good.
    Not to mention it is very awkward to try to glue seven little brackets to timber, clamp them without them moving, and get the whole thing to line up with the wall afterwards.
    So, no photos and it's back to the drawing board.

    Currently I'm thinking of screwing vertical risers to shelves above and below the layout; so those shelves are fixed in place and together; but the layout can still move around between them.
    Pro is the backdrop actually gets shallower, giving me back a few precious mm at the edge of the layout; Con is that it's rather more permanent than brackets hanging off white metal things.

    Also trying to over-engineer this thing (as is my wont), leading to thoughts on making the main deck one section or trying to have a sectional layout again.
    Sectional layouts are much easier to wire and paint and scenic, as they can be pulled off the wall. But I've never got a cross-module track join to work right; and in fact that's the main reason I dropped the layout for 9-10 months last year.
    When you're frustrated all the time, there's no happy outcome :(

    And now to happier things: Spiral Helices ;)
     
  7. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    design, helix

    How feasible is a 1-inch ramp? Thinking about clearance and preventing derails from taking the four-foot trip to floorsville.
    I did a search of trainboard, and the only comment I could find was a post from you on having to clip some supports for clearance?
    You're right, 1" wide would make quite a difference on space :)
    (modifies spreadsheet to support 7 loops)
    13" minimum, 1.25 wide, 2% gradient, 39.4 max footprint, 0 oval, 0 rise before and 0 after, I can fit 4.625 laps (5 support 6 is red); change to 1.0 wide and I can fit 6 full laps (7 support 1 is red). Loop 7 support 1 would be 12.06 inches high, which might even fit in the space.
    Making the spiral an oval would help (4 inches one side for an inch of rise), but then the helix starts to impose on the rest of the layout a bit more. This room is probably only just big enough to justify a helix at all (15.4m of track in the helix, 19.4m on the main deck. hmm)

    The main reason for the current direction of the helix is to 'face' the front upper track; to observe right-hand-running that most American Prototypes seem to follow ;)
    This way I can have a train come out of the helix and immediately drive off down the 'correct' track. The main reason for a reverse loop on the main deck is so I have the option of continuous running without a helix present - so I can build the deck first if I feel inclined.
    Looking at that top end, there's currently no easy way from the back (semi-hidden) line onto the helix; so that area might have to change anyway. Hmm.

    At present I only have 7 staging tracks, and I might drop that to 6, to provide more finger-room between tracks for re-railing / fiddle-yard behaviour.

    The land grant for Duck River is the entirety of the room; so it's Mine All Mine; and any limits on the layout are my own fault; like wanting to actually keep all the books somewhere; needing to get at all the stuff I've got stored in the closet; and so forth.
    So in theory I could move into the centre of the room and have even more layout; excepting that I know I'd never finish all that, and it makes the room look.. cluttered.

    I looked at making the staging double-ended (or even sceniced; hence that deck has a backdrop curve for reference); but I found the ladder made the main body too short - but that was with the reverse loop and existing yard throat untouched.
    If I move to a spiral, the bottom loop at 13" is way to the right of the current helix shown; and that whole yard throat changes as a result.
    I could cheat and put a Wye or Run-around on the window end of the yard (coming out from the wall a space, but not all the way to the closet), and just run the engines around, and that might get rid of the reverse loop for most reasons (how often do you turn an entire train?)
    On the other hand, if the first level of the helix is 13", then I can put a 17" reverse loop under the helix supports (harder to clean).
    Having two levels across the window would be okay if they're shallow in reach; although putting a backdrop on the second level would drop the natural light level quite a bit. But if I started going all the way around on the so-called staging deck, I would have to think seriously about scenery and then the project just balloons. Down-side, I'll be here for Years. Up-side, I'd get more trains :D
     
  8. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    Track Plan Revision 2

    Assuming an oval spiral helix fits, new track plan.
    [​IMG] | <not yet updated>

    Reworked the main deck helix trackwork; the outside reverse loop is almost the maximum radius track once backdrop and door swing are taken into consideration; and even then, I'm running real close to the edge of the benchwork. Safety lip not optional :)

    I note I've twice got a pair of facing turnouts that could be replaced by a double-slip; but I've always shied away from them from a reliability standpoint. Anybody willing to comment? A visible double-slip and a mostly-hidden one, how well would they work? Would I be setting myself up for pain and suffering?

    Re-checking the math:
    Wall to door 1070mm
    backdrop 35-50mm
    1020 absolute maximum space, with the door hitting the layout (and the door handle perfectly placed at staging deck height!)
    Allowing one inch from track centre-line to edge of cliff (far too close), we're down to 970mm / 2 = 485 maximum track centre-line. (19")
    ppuinn's tables have a maximum legal centre-line of 19" when maximum helix footprint is 39.5"; so my oval spiral helix (13" min, 2% grade, 39.5" footprint, 0 rise before, 0 rise after, 5" straight) is 6 full loops for 12.9" rise. But that's without a reverse loop around the outside of the helix.
    So I need to go away and think more.
     
  9. Cleggie

    Cleggie TrainBoard Member

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    I like what you are doing here, walking us through the design process. I look forward to watching your progess.

    A couple of questions, what track are you going to use and what brand of turnout?
    My personal preference is for Atlas code 55 track and turnouts. Although I have seen some Micro Engineering track and do like what I see. The problem there is availability and the extra cost plus shipping it over from the States, however...

    Have fun with it.
     
  10. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    I don't know, it feels a little ego-centric. I believe it will work just so long as there is progress; which means I should probably get off the keyboard and pick up the powertools. I would love to get the backdrop framing 'hung' before I finalise the track; as it's starting to eat into my layout space - it's nearly 2" from wall to front of backdrop at present. :tb-err:

    aah, shipping.
    At present I've got a stockpile of several metres of Peco C80 flextrack, and a few (10-12?) Atlas C80 points - extremely unprototypical looking with that black coffin - as well as 2-3 Peco C55 turnouts. All from previous layouts.
    I figure if I use up that lot on the Staging Deck where looks aren't important, I can then investigate better options for the main deck. If I go with a cylindrical stacked helix, I'd probably try to use Unitrack for that; it has a reputation for being Bullet-Proof; and bullet-proof in a stacked helix is good.
    Any troubles with flanges on the atlas C55? :tb-smile:
     
  11. OC Engineer JD

    OC Engineer JD Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Looks like it will be interesting and fun. :) I would try and stay away from the steep 3 percent grades too. Looking forward to seeing the progress!
     
  12. Cleggie

    Cleggie TrainBoard Member

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    No problems with Atlas & Kato locos and rolling stock or Inter Mountain & Athearn but I have a few Micro Trains and Red Caboose covered hoppers that are fitted with "pizza cutter" wheels and they... bump along...:tb-wacky: So I will swap out the wheels at some stage.
     
  13. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    Progress for 2 January 2008

    Drilling seven holes in timber and getting them precisely spaced appears to be almost as awkward as gluing little brackets to timber equally precisely; but I got it done.
    [​IMG] | [​IMG]
    So, I have timber frames horizontal and level across/above the main deck; meaning I can screw / glue / staple my generic hardboard to the wall and actually fit a backdrop.
    More importantly I now know the total depth from the wall will be 34-35mm (about 1 3/8"), so I can allow for this in my plans.

    Layout Design / Track Planning
    Looking at the staging yard and trying to put a reverse balloon on the window end; I can make one that sticks out all of about 700mm and thus wouldn't hit my head. But that carves off the end of the yard something vicious.
    If I make one that carves less, I hit my head on it sitting at the computer.
    If I move the balloon behind my head so I don't hit it unless I wheel the chair backwards, it blocks the closet.
    So I'm starting to think there's not really any way to put a loop there and still have a staging yard and keep my skull intact.
    [​IMG]
    Shows what I've got to play with by the window:
    Made the staging double-ended with a lead track to let engines escape.
    The helix-end is only wired in for show; it's not good or right
    The red box is where I sit, so any tracks protruding into that box I hit with my head.
    The bright blue loop top left corner is a minimum radius reverse loop, just to show how much it intrudes on the yard end
    Trying to think vertically; could I put a reverse loop above the staging deck and still have it all "work"?


    Conclusion: I still need to work more on the plan. :)
     
  14. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    Track Plan Revision 3

    After some playing with a sheet of paper, I managed to work out why I couldn't work out a reverse loop with the simple observation:
    • a single ended yard requires a backing manoeuvre via a wye or similar to put a consist back that was facing the wrong way
    It also follows that I don't want to be reversing trains on the helix :)

    So, if I don't want some sort of backing manoeuvre, I'm going to need a double-ended yard; which means things get .. interesting

    [​IMG]

    By using an 11" radius and by bending into the window instead of avoiding it, it's possible to put a reverse loop just up by my head (actually just in front)
    This is going to make reach into the corner awkward, as noted.

    I also observed that reach around the helix is reduced; meaning having a yard ladder just outside the helix is hard to reach. Solution: put the yard ladder under the helix.
    Ooh boy.
    Flipping the helix over again (climb counter-clockwise) to line up with the staging tracks - makes the main-deck awkward again. Tight point over the yard throat is 1.5-1.6". Not so good.

    Also did a "finger-test" on yard spacing. With a 12" gap between decks, I can just poke my head in to look at a derailed car on the back track. With 35mm between tracks I can just rerail a car; bumping neighbouring cars. With 40mm it's easy with almost no bumping.
     
  15. ppuinn

    ppuinn Staff Member

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    It's feasible...especially if you use plywood or engineered paneling of some type which would be much stronger than 1" wide Homasote (which is just a 1/2 inch thick compressed paper product).
    [​IMG]

    While standing inside the Peoria Helix (pictured below), I inadvertently assisted a Kato loco to "take the plunge". Had to replace a coupler and touch up a crunched corner of the shell. Since the Peoria Helix has a half dozen turnouts throughout its rise and standing in the center of the helix is the only way to reach the throat of the 7 track Farmdale staging yard, I knew I'd be spending a lot of time in the helix so I put cardboard around the outside edge of each loop and around the inside edge of the lowest loop. I'd already made the access hole enough smaller than the lowest loop so I had a surface for resting tools and "stuff" when working.
    [​IMG]

    True, and only you can determine whether the 4 inches (or one car length) sacrificed above and below are worth it.


    Not sure I follow your logic on this one...I'll do some cogitating, too. I usually advocate leaving the helix to the main level of a layout from the front of the shelf rather than the back, but in this case, the trade-off is worth it because you will have MUCH easier access to your staging level turnouts. With 12 inches separating the railheads, you will not have much room to work on the turnouts in the throat of the staging yard...a situation you will gnash your teeth over and strain the muscles of your back (Been there, done that!).

    Finger-room is good!!

    How short is "too short"? I think I can get you about 5.5 to 6.5 feet with a run-around arrangement instead of a reversing loop, and all of the staging level turnouts within 6 inches of the front of the layout (Hmm...I'll bet that got your attention! <big grin!>) There would be straight tracks at both ends for coupling. There would hardly be any S curves (possibly 2 on the track used for the run-around).

    To do this, you would have to climb clock-wise up the helix instead of counter-clockwise and start the helix at the bottom of the oval (against the wall with the door), and you'll enter the upper level from the back of the helix. There would be a curve from that first support to the front edge of the lower shelf (behind the door) and the first turnout to staging would be nestled at the outside of the oval just a little above (toward the center of the room) from the straight section of the oval--about 2 feet in from the wall with the door.
    The picture below shows one possible track arrangement for the window end of the staging tracks. The helix end of the staging tracks would have a similar turnout arrangement, but, after the straight portion, the track would curve back to the right to run parallel with the front edge of the layout.
    [​IMG]
    The blue and yellow yard sticks are 2 feet apart (the tiles are 1 foot square). Assuming 1.5 inch track centerlines, the front track centerline would be 12 inches from the back of the layout. If you go with 7 tracks instead of 8, you could fit them all on a 12 inch shelf. Adding more finger space might reduce the number of tracks to 6.
    The area under the window 2 feet from the left wall is 1 foot deep. The area under the window 3 feet from the wall is 3 inches deep. The end of the yard tail (your loco escape track for making the run-around move) is about 18 inches from the first turnout and 5 feet from the left wall (4.5 feet from the closet wall).

    Amen, Brother.
     
  16. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    design, plotting

    1" roadbed
    I'm thinking sub-bed = 7mm (1/4") ply (3 sheets laminated of not-properly-dried Pine; it's all you can really get down here); same as my layout proper. Framed every 12", it seems to "behave" as much as anything. Vertical supports could be either MDF or ply again. MDF is heavier, but more stable for a given thickness. It'll take screws edgeways better - ply tends to de-laminate/split if you try that!
    12mm MDF versus anything up to 17mm ply (same as my bookshelves).

    I know my luck with floorsville; for me it would be bits of Kato everywhere. Hence I'll keep the nice engines (like my sig) off the layout for test running!
    The helix will be above a 12" shelf at about hip-height; so there's a natural "lip" at the bottom of the helix on that side; although, there's also a shelf below the helix at hip height that's connected to the workbench that'll be perfect for tools.. ;)

    oval versus round
    My current plans have a 5" straight; and that's about as far as I'd want to intrude (RTS offers an easy 5" set-track for rapid prototyping)

    on the direction of the helix...
    Having played with the track plan, I'm not sure I follow my reasoning either!
    My current scheming has a Clockwise Climb spiral oval which comes out on the main deck back of the wall, and where the staging enters parallel to the (open) door, furthest from the layout (South) wall.

    Too short is 4.0 feet or less. Generally unless I really louse up the ladder, I can get a 5-6 foot single-ended yard.
    For a "run-around", I would be more inclined to just leave one track body empty - easiest way to do that is run up the next consist while the first one is heading back towards the helix; or just have one less consist staged than there are tracks.


    Not 100% sure I follow you; I've made up (yet another) rough track plan with supports numbered; if we can agree on a description of things using this, that should help.

    [​IMG] | [​IMG] | (click to enlarge)
    (upper deck unchanged from revision 2) | (new staging deck, revision 4)
    Lower deck enters the helix at about 1 and orbits 4+ times to leave on the main deck at about 5. Still want a reverse loop on the main deck; although with a 12" space, I need that radius for the last helix loop, so I have to find somewhere else to put it!
    As I read your post, you're suggesting coming out on the staging deck between support 2 and 1 (towards the door), and then curving around the outside of the helix towards support 7; possibly starting the ladder even earlier than I have.
    The only thing that worries me about building out past #7 is that it will cover my workbench (the red box). Although, I can hang nifty 6W fluorescents under the layout and just light up the workbench.
    <plays with digital camera> hey, white-balance on this thing works! I can make it adjust the colour for the lighting. Excellent. I might post some photos after I finish this reply.

    Under the window, I've tried two yard ladders; the one in place is smaller; the one that is disconnected comes out as far as the black diagonal line, and they both have the same yard lead ("engine escape") for comparison only - this is about as long as it can get before getting in the way of the closet. In practice it only needs to be as long as 2-3 engines. or head across the lift-out (swinging gate if I make it double height!) and become the start of the reverse-loop industry section on the lower deck.

    One idea I saw in another thread that I liked is the olde english idea of Cassette storage. Beside the engine escape yard would be a good place for a cassette "dock". Just not a 6' long one!

    The final answer on the finger-space is that 1+5/16" is about minimum, with a small amount of adjacent track bumping; and 1+9/16" (33.3-40mm) is ideal; so a little over 1.5" and thus 7 tracks in 12" is comfortable.

    With the ladders as drawn, the track by the wall is 1.83m (about 6'), the closest is 2.1m (about 7') and the shortest inner track is about 1.7m (just under 6').
    I think I need to work on compound curved ladders. I've got straight ones down pat, but curved ones hurt my head too much after 9 hours of work.
     
  17. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    space mockups

    Alright, took a little longer because RailImages is being wacky.

    [​IMG]
    Metal rod marks the edge of the helix; the three sheets of plywood then handle the ladder (although not too well) The ladder starts about where the most protruding touches the square sheet, curves across the middle square sheet and onto the long parallel sheet towards the monitor
    Thanks to the flash, the level of shading the overhang provides isn't clear.

    [​IMG]
    A similar mockup of the window wall; with the horizontal timber at 12" from the wall; the leg about where the chair can wheel back to, and the yellow tape-measure marking where the layout has to stop before it clouts the closet door.
    Also worth noting is TrainBoard on the monitor... with my previous post showing :)
    Everything between horizontal timber and the wall can be gifted to the layout.
    The smallest a return loop can be made would clip the corner of the monitor and overhang the mouse (just by the black and yellow level). Make me claustrophobic.

    As always, more photos can be found in my a_layout album
     
  18. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    Workbench Lighting

    As a contrast, here's a photo without the flash from a similar angle to the previous workbench mockup
    [​IMG]

    And here's some chair-level shots of the workbench with the mockup as an overhang:
    [​IMG] | [​IMG] | [​IMG]
    Left: no flash, incandescent room ceiling lamp only
    Middle: no flash, 10W fluorescent clamped to the staging track underside and facing away from my eyes
    Right: turning on the flash

    From this we can tell a few things
    • after the sun goes down, room lighting alone is inadequate for photography and pretty marginal for trying to do closeup work
    • my camera can adjust white-balance for different light sources. My eyes are not so advanced
    • flash makes hot-spots. no flash leaves shadows around the edges
    • my workspace clutter moves
    Not obvious from this photo, but obvious to me sitting here is that the lamp only really illuminates the side of an object closer to the back wall than the light.
    This is going to have implications for photographing things using layout lights.
     
  19. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    Track Plan, update to Revision 5

    Took some time on the weekend to check out a nearby model show, and visit both vendors thus represented. Managed to liberate a couple of Atlas C55 points and some atlas C80 flextrack - for half the price of Peco flextrack no less. Also got a brace of Tortoises and Hares, so I can experiment with different turnout geometry, different flex track behaviour and slow-speed / stall-motor point throwing.
    Playing with lighting the whole room at 6500K fluorescents. It actually works okay; until I walk out into a room with 2700/2500K incandescents. Then they look yellow and the (layout) room looks blue. gah.
    Googled photos of the real Arizona sub-divisions for reference. Is it just me, or is BNSF replacing the pink ballast? :(

    In layout planning news, I've come up with a plan for the staging that I'm quite a bit happier with.
    I give you, The Duck River Sub, revision 5b:

    [​IMG] Main Deck (click to enlarge)

    Main highlights include:
    • a river, in lovely cyan
    • an unscenic'd area, in orange
    • artisticly angled tracks that don't parallel the walls
    • An interchange, shortest track is about 5-6x dash-8 40BW long
    • main track exits helix at the back, support 5, 12" high (no climb allowed - any derailments down a cut at the back of the wall would be hard to reach)
    • reverse loop! uses helix to drop 1.2" and exit about support 1, and then rises at 2% along the light green "foreign" tracks.
    • one double-slip where green meets blue

    [​IMG] Staging Deck (click to enlarge)

    Staging highlights include:
    • minimum yard track = 2195mm, or 7'2"
    • maximum yard track = 2362mm, or 7'9"
    • compound ladder off the helix, with all turnouts in easy reach
    • compound curve off the ladder (erk)
    • helix supports as marked
    • come off the helix between support 1 and 2 towards the door, and then curve around the outside towards the wall and the yard.
    • rerailers where possible
    Looking at it, it might be more fun to add rerailers even where it isn't possible, to improve derailing. But I'd have to change the ladders and probably lose some length to pull it off.
    So, unless anyone can see any major flaws; or I come up with any major improvements, I might call this a workable "release candidate" for making benchwork to.
    And go back to designing an actual scenic'd deck to go above it.

    Summary:
    So I've now got a track plan that seems fairly do-able and in the space available too.
    I'm now open to comments / suggestions on where it can be improved; otherwise I might just sleep on it for a day or two, before starting to consider Benchwork :D
    First problem being, the helix calls for a 1.2m x 1.2m sheet for the subroadbed, and I can't fit that in my car...
     
  20. ppuinn

    ppuinn Staff Member

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    Some questions:
    The bottom (smallest/inside) loop looks like it has an inside radius less than 12 inches...did I miss a design change or am I misreading your diagram?

    You've drawn the first staging yard turnout under the helix and the track leading into the helix as curving along the outside edge of the helix (maybe under the largest and highest two loops). That means you will have about 8 to 10 inches of clearance directly above the turnout except where the track passes through a support. This seems a tad close, to me anyhow. Have you had a chance to construct some mock-ups (like you did with the 3 plywood sheets and the metal rod--but with the supports and loops of the helix instead of the shelf) to see if the space you have in reality is as ample as the space that seems available on paper?

    When troubleshooting turnouts, I've always found it useful to be able to look directly down onto the turnout from above, and to look straight along the rails from engine cab height. Will placement of your staging turnouts allow that? If you put a 2 to 4 inch straight section of track in the blue track where it passes under support 1, you will shorten all of your yard tracks by that amount and will reduce your head space over the workbench, but I suspect the tradeoff with increased ease of initial construction, inevitable future repair, and constant track cleaning/maintenance on the first turnout will be well worth it.

    Will you be controlling the turnout at the top of the helix by the door with a manually thrown ground throw or a Tortoise (or Tortoise and Hare)?. If you use the Tortoise, it will extend down roughly 3.5 inches toward the lower level from the underside of the sub-roadbed supporting the turnout (which I agree should be MDF rather than plywood). As a result, Tortoise (or Tortoise plus Hare) placement will become critical to lower level track clearance on the helix side of the first staging turnout.

    You mentioned getting some Peco turnouts to test various curved compound ladder track configurations. Will you be going DCC or DC? This might affect turnout brand selection because some turnouts are more DCC friendly than others.
     

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