Building the Duck River sub

Another ATSF Admirer Dec 30, 2007

  1. Flash Blackman

    Flash Blackman TrainBoard Member

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    Wow! Seems like a big job,to me. So you are going to superimpose the MDF and the plywood for extra strength? Interesting idea. It will also be interesting to see the steps to accomplish this. Thanks for the pictures; I certainly look forward to next weekend.
     
  2. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    No, the MDF is a replacement if the ply falls apart - call it Plan B. Both would be just too heavy for my likes - as it is, the MDF is something like 4x heavier than the ply :(
    It was just faster to make an MDF ramp, even if I never use it :)
    I've already got a base, so I just need supports and to put it all together.

    I just got bored while watching TV so I made some cardboard supports to play with and see how badly the ply does :)
    It takes a surprisingly large piece of timber (or cardboard) to make all the supports!
     
  3. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    Progress for 26(ish) April 2008

    Okay, putting the spiral ramp on to supports is really a two man job. One man with duct tape can do quite well, but I really recommend finding helpers for this one!
    But since it's somewhere past 1am and all reasonable (and unreasonable) helpers are asleep, and I just have to test it today...

    [​IMG]
    /\ The helix really dominates the room now

    [​IMG]
    /\ The spiral was held flat by duct tape, lifted into place atop the supports and then very very gingerly the duct tape was removed, lowering the ramp onto the supports. The spiral is just unmanageable if all six loops are allowed to gyrate of their own (twisted) free will

    [​IMG]
    /\ Looking towards the yard. Guess I'm not going to get many shots looking out from the helix anymore. Note the two little blocks holding up the main deck island. I'll mention that later...

    [​IMG]
    /\ Support two, where we transition from approach ramp to spiral proper.

     
  4. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    From this I have learnt:
    • Making supports uses a lot of material
    • Check and recheck you've transferred the right heights - I've got one screw-up on Support 5 that's not too obvious but would not be good on the real supports
    • The helix fits! :D
      • And misses the doorknob when the door is open!
    • Support the main deck. The great big island is heavy and pulls the whole helix sideways, threatening to topple everything! :(
    • Mock-ups are good
    But I still haven't decided on ply vs mdf yet, and the cardboard supports haven't helped enough. However, I think I have worked out how I will solve the "plywood" issue once and for ever:
    [​IMG]
    If I build a mock-up like that out of scrap timber (I now have plenty), and use a suitably flimsy piece of plywood for the blue 'test' piece, I can see if ply is a problem or not.

    And now, I should go to bed.. I have work in about 29 hours, and I still have a day of "not train stuff" to get through tomorrow :D
    mmm... helix...
     
  5. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    No real changes..
    My helix has now been sitting up on cardboard for 2.5 days without toppling over, so the duct tape must be working :)
    Roll on the weekend :D
     
  6. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    Not much progress thus far on the weekend.
    I've annotated the cardboard supports with notes on where they need cutting and fixing / enlarging - found something like four heights that were incorrectly transferred from the spreadsheet.
    I've pulled everything down and hauled it out to the garage. Duct tape is Great :D
    I've also bought new drill bits and jig-saw blades; I suspect I'll need them to make the supports.

    Tomorrow I will draw up new supports on the 17mm ply and possibly even cut them out.
    Then I will have to work out how I can attach the timber supports to the helix base. I'm thinking screwing 1x1 or 1x2 to the base and then screwing the supports to that - much like Cleggie did for his helices, over here
    I don't think I want to have anything much screwed upwards from underneath the helix base - that approach isn't likely to work too well; so everything needs to be screwed or glued downwards; and glue is a little too permanent. :D

    And now I'm starting to worry that I'm moving too quickly; even though at this rate it'll be another week before I have track down. [​IMG]
    Time to go find food - see y'all tomorrow.
     
  7. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    Progress for 4 May 2008

    Okay, so I didn't use the jig saw or the mitre saw at all today - in fact, the only power tool I got to use was my skillsaw - unless you count my car. It's powered :)

    Took some photos of my Support Weight Mockup.
    [​IMG]
    more pics.

    Both types of timber bend if weighed down; and supporting the ply every 350mm or so appears to work fine, for the mockup anyway; so I'm inclined to go with the ply. It's lighter and looks like more fun!

    After that, I hauled out my sheet of 17mm thick ply and played with fitting the cardboard mockup supports on it to see how much it would take, the answer being 640mm by 1200mm; or 2'2" by 4'. I've concluded the best way to fit the supports, while still being able to cut out the ledges with a jigsaw; and have the whole thing relatively square, is to cut two 320mm strips off the sheet.
    [​IMG]
    The metal rail is clamped at just the right point that I can run the saw along it and thus keep a straight cut!

    [​IMG]
    Here we can see all ten cardboard supports on the two strips. And that's all the power tool usage I get for today.
    Each cardboard support is carefully annotated ("scribbled on") with notes on how much bigger (or smaller) it needs to be; hence the apparently blank space bottom right corner of that pic - that space is used by Support #6, for holding up the main deck helix exit.
    As always, there are more progress shots in my album
     
  8. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    Progress for 4 May 2008, continued

    [​IMG]
    Support #5 on the left, Support #2 on the right, with a 5mm "saw" space between them.
    A small horizontal mark indicates which column is Loop 4. This is my "keying" mark to help me get the right height in the right column!

    Several hours later, all the heights have been written on the supports, and a horizontal line drawn at that height. When cut out, it is these horizontal lines that the sub-roadbed, roadbed, track and ultimately Train will rest on :D
    The vertical lines shown are the sides of the supports which the train will side-swipe on the way past.

    [​IMG]
    Added horizontal lines (actually running up and down in this photo).
    Top of support #6 to the left, bottom of #6 to the right (note the heights)
    Also visible are the little 'U'-shaped (or '[' when standing up) notches in each vertical line.
    [​IMG]
    Support #8, also with little notches.

    My current plan is to cut into each vertical support wall about 7mm deep, to provide a notch for the train on the helix to pass each support wall without hitting it. It's not perfect, but it should work . . .
    More worrying is that from top of the support to the top of my NMRA gauge is 50mm, and on lower levels, the vertical spacing between loops is less than that!
    At this point I will probably have to just try it and see.

    And that's pretty much it for tonight. It's now too dark for playing in the shed (might be time to fix the lights out there?), and it's dark when I get home from work; so that's probably it for another week - Summer must be over at last!
     
  9. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    A picture is worth ten thousand words

    Or, in this case, about 101kb.
    Thinking back to my verbal description of the side-swipe problem, I decided a picture would illustrate my meaning more clearly.
    But the lighting in the garage is so poor; trying to take a flash shot of a metal surface square on?
    One of my eleven pictures came out!
    [​IMG]
    Here we see my trusty NMRA gauge (yes, you can get these here in .nz :D ) sitting on step '51' of one of the supports - probably #6.
    Note the vertical line on the left, between step '51' and step '100'. Note how the gauge is sitting over it.
    Note the notch around it to provide clearance.
    Note how step '100' comes back into the diagonal on the top left. Not a problem for my passenger cars, maybe a problem for double-stacks.

    The gauge is sitting high of the step line, because there's 7mm of subroadbed and 4mm of track. I may skip the 3mm of cork in the helix to help the height issues.

    Hopefully that's a better explanation for all the visually inclined people than my excess of verbiage (which you get anyway! ;) )

    But that raises the question of how much louder would a train on ply inside a mountain be, compared to a train on cork on ply inside a mountain...
     
  10. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    No progress from the last two weeks, alas :(
    Been busy at work, and then I got hit with a cold on the weekend. :(

    It feels like Winter has finally made it to New Zealand - soon I'll have to think about plugging in the heater and keeping the train room warm..

    So I'm still halfway through making the supports for the helix; with one to two day's work before I can put everything together and have a permanent helix of my very own :D
    Let's see what the weekend brings.
     
  11. Cleggie

    Cleggie TrainBoard Member

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    My $0.02, just go with the track on ply. I doubt you will gain much by laying a cork roadbed in your helix. I have track glued directly onto MDF in my helix and notice very little noise. Save the cork for "visible areas" where track appearance is important.

    Keep up the good work, it's looking great :thumbs_up::thumbs_up::thumbs_up:
     
  12. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    Progress for 17 May 2008

    Thanks for the two cents; although you'd have to round it up to 10c these days :) I imagine Winter is even more noticeable down your way.

    Set out today to carve up the supports using my Jigsaw. The jigsaw wasn't doing a very good job of strictly vertical cuts; meaning my support steps would have been inclined without even trying. I suspect this is due to owning a cheap saw and cheap blades. Got halfway through the third and decided there has to be a better way. So I bought a Band Saw :tb-biggrin:
    Unfortunately, going shopping used the last of the daylight, so I had to work on in the dark - stealing a desk lamp and some of my main-deck lighting fluoros so I can see the sawblade before it takes off anything I care about! I believe this is one very dangerous power tool!
    So the photos aren't very good, as the garage is cold, not overly well lit, and now about an inch deep in sawdust...

    [​IMG]
    All ten supports cut out and sitting about where they should. Each support also has two little "feet" made of 1x1 timber (pine). The feet will be screwed to the support so it can stand vertical, and then I will screw the feet down into the base from above - as trying to screw everything together from the underside would be just an exercise in frustration...
    [​IMG]
    Support #6 up closer, including feet. Support 6 is the longest, as it has to hold up the "landing area" for the main deck - lesson learned from the cardboard experiments!
    Note the little notches cut into each support, for side-swiping. I believe I covered that in an earlier post.
     
  13. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    Progress for 17 May 2008, Continued

    More photos in my album
    [​IMG]
    With feet screwed on, each support stands up and is less inclined to fall over than my cardboard mockups. Support #7 in the foreground, Support #2 in the left background is the transition from foam ramp to plywood spiral.
    Supports 1, 1b and 8 have arches/tunnels to allow the approach ramp to clear them. Dimensions for the arches were made from the cardboard mockups - although I neglected to leave enough space for the feet!

    [​IMG]
    In theory the NMRA gauge will fit through that opening.

    The supports now have feet and can be test fitted; But before screwing them down to the base, I need to determine the optimum sites to do so; and the only way to do that is by finishing the helix:
    [​IMG]
    The cut out spiral sub-roadbed has been duct-taped flat and very carefully placed atop all the supports. Just like the cardboard mockup, but without as much risk of collapse.

    Crawling (literally, my knees hate me now) into the middle of the helix, I carefully untaped each orbit and then fiddled and fidgeted with everything. Supports to tweak, spiral to align.
    I really have no idea what the actual incline is at any point; I may need some way to measure that to ensure I haven't built this whole thing crooked.
    [​IMG]

    So my very first helix is starting to take shape. Still quite some way to go before I can do "accidental uncoupling" tests with suitable (low value not ATSF roadname) wagons.
    As always, walking the line between "hurry up and run trains" and "slow down and do a good job".

    From here, what next?
    • Finalise support locations and screw them down. Possibly check gradient as well
    • Screw subroadbed to supports
    • Drag everything inside
    • Lay track
    • 0-5-0 a train up and down
    • Wire track

    I'll probably be busy tomorrow, but today at least has been a day of progress for the Duck River sub.
     
  14. Cleggie

    Cleggie TrainBoard Member

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    Yep, feeling the winter's bite... "there's snow on them there mountains". And the frosts are no insentive to get up early in the morning.

    I'm with the "make haste slowly" idea. Any improvements/alterations you can do now before the helix is in place will be well worth it. Still, what I can see form your pics looks fine, and I'm sure you will be running trains in no time at all.
     
  15. JBT

    JBT TrainBoard Member

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    Inspirational!
     
  16. GregK

    GregK TrainBoard Member

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    Looks great!

    Although here, it's SUPPOSED to be spring/summer, but yesterday it was 56 degrees F for the high. Which is way below normal.

    Where's all this global warming they've been talking about? I want some!
     
  17. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    Progress for 24 May 2008

    "Global Warming" would be nice now that it's actually getting cold. Maybe I can build a bonfire from all my scraps of plywood? :D
    Although I think "Global Warming" is just going to make all the bad weather, storms etc, worse, and not lead to nice warm winters.

    Screwing down supports to the base and the ramp to the supports required a little bit of fiddling to try to optimise everything - the helix must be centred on the base correctly; and then it must cross the supports correctly and then the supports behind you move as you fiddle with the ramp in front of you and...

    I started by picking Support 3 to be my master "must be perfect" support; from this Supports 1 and 5 became the secondary good supports. Each loop was lined up first to Support 3 and then to supports 1 and 5. With these supports screwed down, all other supports were moved around to be Good (but not necessarily perfect)

    [​IMG]

    With all the supports screwed down, step two is to affix the spiral ramp to the supports. I've gone with screws here. Little ones with good grab. At this point I learn a lesson of experience for the next helix: if the track centre must be 13mm from the edge of the support, take your time when cutting it out to do a decent job.
    It'll make lining up the ramp on the supports and making sure the whole thing fits go a lot more smoothly!

    [​IMG]

    At this point woodworking for the helix in the workshop is pretty much complete. I suspect that every point on the helix is at least 2mm "out" from where it was on the paper. I only hope that 2mm here, 2mm there doesn't add up to make the helix unworkable.

    [​IMG]

    (yes that is a computer in the background. It does go. sort of. The stereo beside it is good for playing music to be heard over the power tools)
     
  18. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    Progress for 24 May 2008, part 2

    [​IMG]

    With everything screwed together and looking good, I picked up my new helix and dusted it off. At about 10-12kg, this thing is one-man-portable; but only if he doesn't have to go through any doorways! I did get help to carry it inside...

    Whereupon it didn't fit in the space made for it!
    It turns out that my main deck height measurement is off by about... 7mm - the thickness of the plywood. So the ramp hits the backdrop and so do supports 5 and 5b:
    [​IMG]

    So much hacking and sawing and use of power tools in the layout room later, I managed to get it to fit! (Look closely and see that one of the tunnels has no side - that space is required for the door handle)
    [​IMG]

    So I think I'll leave this post with a blue photo, the edge of the top deck meets the edge of the backdrop.
    [​IMG]

    So there it is. I have a helix framework all set up in my room - or as my sister calls it, "A Stadium for Trains" (she was also impressed by my new bandsaw)
     
  19. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    Layout Overview, 24 May 2008

    Taking a look around the layout room.
    [​IMG]
    /\ California Ladder, complete with Coalgons
    [​IMG]
    /\ Yard body and Duck End Ladder, oh and the Stadium for Trains too.
    [​IMG]
    /\ Looking across the yard from the door, by the helix
    [​IMG]
    /\ Looking past Support #8 at Support #7, Module #2 and the Duck End Ladder. Note the little notches in Support #7 to get around the module.
     
  20. Another ATSF Admirer

    Another ATSF Admirer TrainBoard Member

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    Layout Overview, 24 May 2008

    [​IMG]
    /\ Over the helix looking down at the staging deck. Come the main deck, this view is going to be hidden.

    [​IMG]
    /\ From the helix looking out at the yard. Nice stripy effect.


    I guess the logical next step is to put track on the helix and then start rolling things up and down.
    Having got this far, I would like to take a pause to say a big thank [​IMG] you to all the people who've helped me get this far. All the forum dwellers who have given me advice and ideas, even if I didn't use them. All the people in the real world who've lent a hand (or shoulder). And especially ppuinn for the excel sheet that made my helix possible!
    But I can't leave out you, whoever you are, helping my view count (4800!) by actually reading the thread.

    Don't forget to tune in tomorrow for the next installment :tb-cute:
     

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