Thanks for the comments, appreciate it 40cm squares, not 12" I originally laid the room out using an Armstrong Square of 40cm, hence the grid is set to that. It's more of a round number than 304.8mm. But no, the first curved track of the helix is 334mm radius - it's only a rough helix spiral; more me playing with RTS than anything. That's a good idea. It'll probably take me a bit more effort to make support-mockups than flat sheets of ply though. Especially to brace it all in place. Hmm. Interestingly, the (green) helix track spiral I used for revisions up to 5 was a little smaller; so the ladder is actually clear of those. Probably a good thing I decided to improve that before getting to real timber. I wouldn't be adverse to moving it out a little; I don't need the workbench that much (I'm going to have to light it anyway) and the yard tracks would still be long enough if 4" shorter. I'll see what the mockups have to say. Good point. Let's see what turning on both main-deck and staging in RTS show... That turnout is about the only vertical-clearance-issue place (other than the yard ladder). I think it depends what track I use for the helix - if I use code80, I can use an unprototypical Atlas point with above-deck solenoid and there's no vertical issues. I was advocating MDF vertical supports; are you suggesting MDF subroadbed as well? Definately DCC. I was actually tempted to use my existing atlas points for all the hidden places like the yard, and work out which is better of Peco or Atlas C55 for the main deck. I checked my atlas C55 with a multimeter first thing I got them home, and they look to be pretty well DCC friendly, with no opposite voltages only a few mm apart. Peco isn't so good, the points in particular are a possible problem. Apparently several years ago Peco started making their points a little more DCC friendly though. I will see. One added wrinkle on the helix; I definately can't get a 1.2x1.2m sheet of timber into my car; so either I'm going to have to work out some other way of getting one home (no trailer, no roof rack), or I make the helix out of two sheets spliced together! I'm figuring if I do that, make the joint off-centre probably on the long axis, and glue a splice-plate over the joint before cutting the spiral out.
Helix mockup, postponed Alright, I built me a mockup of the helix area using MDF, plywood and F-Clamps. I like F-Clamps. Unfortunately, I left my camera at work, so I can't take any photos of it all tonight. From my mockup I can say, ppuin is right, 8" vertical isn't a lot of free space for waving a head around in. On the other hand, moving out the track 5" starts to seriously overshadow my workbench. Fine I can light it, except the staging deck is at forehead height if I'm sitting; so there's a limit to how overhung it can get before I get clobbered in the head! (it gets hungover and I get the headache. Great. ) If I drop the helix to 4" straights, I have to add 11" of straight climb on the main deck, which reaches about to the tunnel mouth, or maybe level with the end of the run-around on the Interchange. Then I could add as little as 3" straight on the yard level and still clear the supports; giving me 2-3 inches more for my head. With 5" helix and 5" straight on the yard level, I've got 12" overhang. On the gripping hand, an actual helix would be curved and not have such a vicious corner on it like my square mockup does. Definitely needs photos. My last great idea, seeing this much hardware hanging off the wall is maybe I want to drop each deck by 2". Going to make the helix duckunder hard on the back, but might provide better viewing / maintenance for both decks.
Most places like Carters or Placemakers have free loan trailers if you've got a towbar, otherwise if you don't live too far out of the way they might be able to put it on a truck that is going somewhere near your place and deliver it for little/no cost.
Hey, another kiwi. Yeah, no towbar and the owner's manual for my car recommends not fitting one - it's not designed for towing. But it is shiny and green. (I like my car. My car, trains and F-clamps.) I know placemakers has/had good terms for delivery, just not a lot of punctuality; so if I visit them today they might be able to deliver timber sometime this week; and then I just have to weather the hassle of running around chasing timber deliveries. Alternatively, I find a coworker / make friends with someone who has a towbar or a ute or similar.
Helix mockup, photos Aside: placemakers has put the price of delivery up to A Significant Number; so I'm making friends with a guy who owns a station wagon; apparently this will get me a sheet of timber that works without splicing Overall shot of space. vertical clamp by green tape measure is 1' into bench and 1.5' from monitor. Green tape-measure is about where the second two points of the yard ladder start (where the ladders goes from 2 to 4 tracks) supports are the right height and almost the right radius. That leg is crooked. It's hard to build a table with just clamps. And that corner bottom left juts out too much and influences my perception of the space. Note the F-clamp and timber blocks over the tape measure.. A better shot of the tape measure. The F-clamp above the tape measure is at loop N-1 and thus has 8" of clearance here, which ain't a lot. Conclusions: Consider dropping to a 4" straight on the helix consider adding 2-3" to the helix to ladder track to get out from the shadow of the helix build a new mockup that is vaguely circular/oval, to test the space against the workbench again cardboard support with a deck at the right height to experiment with just how far out of the shadow I must drag the track. ditto for checking the 10.8" loop against the door and the helix against the door handle
Helix mockup, Take 2, photos Four photos per posting, 16 photos... hmm I reckon this should take 6 postings. Built a new mockup mostly out of cardboard, being light and easier to cut than ply or MDF, as well as a lot cheaper (in this case, free!) Started with a 5" straight side, with the back loop about 1/2" further from the wall than I would consider a bare minimum - i.e. 1.4" from the backdrop; assuming there is a backdrop behind the helix To build a helix: Step 1: Cardboard. Lots of Cardboard. Step 2: draw circles on cardboard Step 3: rub out circles and draw Spirals Step N: work out some way to support cardboard at layout height. Metal bars will do in a pinch Step N+1: check your helix doesn't hit anything: walls, doors, your own head The access hole has been cut at 11" for now. The spiral runs past the metal bar (about support 1) at 1" intervals: 13 (not used), 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 (last). On level 6 on this support, a turnout will diverge outwards and reach hopeful towards the door. My job is to make sure it doesn't touch it!
Helix mockup, Take 2, photos .. II Okay, cute, if you access rail images while uploading, it screws up the upload. This is going to take longer.. Added cardboard supports If the support to the right, number 7, looks a little wonky, that's because it is! it fell down right after I took the photo! No harm done, so it was told off and taped back down: Note, outside radius in heavy black line; cardboard at 8" (5th loop) and plywood at main deck level (over 6th loop) As the plan revision 5 stands, that cardboard is the 8" clearance I have come to know and love And hanging out over the workbench Outermost radius track is 8.5" over the workbench; the plan currently calls for main deck to be about 6" past that and staging will have to be moved as well.
Helix mockup, Take 2, photos .. III The importance of a good Location for a helix cannot be overstated. Location. Location. Location. Start by picking somewhere with a good View: Okay, so it's got curtains and a chair. How about a Staged view? In my mind's eye, I can just imagine 7 tracks with ample finger space cruising down that wall, being warmed gently by the two particle accelerators below the deck. In case you hadn't guessed, that's what my room looks like from inside the helix. I've dropped both decks by 2" and pushed the CRT monitors forward to fit a 30cm / 12" deck behind them. Hmm... only two photos this post. Let's revisit my Door Handle: | (as with any teeny tiny photos, click to enlarge) The top support is 10.2" vertical or so, and that's where the turnout comes out. On the staging deck, the helix entry is actually behind this support. Okay, the cardboard is right - that IS support 1; and my track plan has Oval Support B what I've drawn as '1'. Hrm. I think it's going to be tight. I've got a 1/2" at the back I can push the helix away from the door. If I don't run the backdrop as far as the back of the helix, I can shave another 3/4" off that and thus move the track 40/25.4 inches away from the door (1.5748", call it 1 and 9/16)
Helix mockup, Take 2, photos .. IV Still using a 5" straight on the helix, here's the workbench clearance. Let me introduce you to my three little sticks. The one on the left indicates the outside radius of the helix, which at this support is 18.75" The middle stick is 4" further out than that. The right stick is 5" past that, and thus a total of 9" beyond the outside radius. Thanks to my overly generous cutting of the cardboard, in the first shot all you can see is the third marker. Let's trim the cardboard. After all, it was free, how bad can it be?
Helix mockup, Take 2, photos .. V Ahh, by collapsing two posts earlier, I got it done in five. Sliced the end off the cardboard and moved the helix left to test a 4" straight. All the supports are fractionally the wrong height now. Oh well. The left most block is now 1" to the right of the outermost track radius. Wich is apparently 17.75", not 18.75". I must be tired. | (click to enlarge) note heavy track centre = outside radius of spiral. Marked 19-21" just for amusement. (Note to self: keep feet out of future downwards shots) Okay, taking the corner off the helix bench makes me feel a lot better about sitting at the workbench, if I slide the keyboard tray away. That one inch difference has quite a psychological impact; or else I'm just fixating on it.
Helix mockup, Take 2, Conclusions And now that it's 1 am and I have work in 7-9 hours, I think that is quite enough achieved for one night and I'm going to bed! Conclusions: cardboard is flimsy rail images only works if you don't touch it while uploading 1:1 scale mockups are highly recommended for working out space usage :thumbs_up: Next I think I will: sleep torment coworkers with track plan make a cardboard "gauge" box or two off my NMRA gauge, and put one by the wall and one by the doorhandle and see which one gets smashed first see how much bigger than 22" diameter the access hole has to be build a cardboard yard ladder and put it down around support 7 and see how ladder + gauge box fares against support 7 Tomorrow is Wednesday, so I might not have time for much after work. Thanks for reading this far!
On thursday I made friends with a guy with a station wagon, and picked up some timber, without having to auction off any internal organs for delivery fees (of course, the price of a sheet of ply these days is another kidney entirely..) Curiously, his "station wagon" is only really comfortable taking 2.4m of dimensional timber; maybe 2.6m if you're not keen on the windscreen. My little Hatchback will take a 3.0m and only scuff the dash some. I got bored / couldn't sleep last night, so I grabbed some glue and some track - turns out it's "GT Made in Italy", not Atlas like I thought. Oh well. I glued it down anyway just to play with. My trusty 40' gon getting an 0-5-0 test shunt; on an 11" radius, just to see if the track will do it; and it does So I've started looking at a track bill to build everything on both decks.. According to my notes, I need: 12 left hand points, got 11 in various shapes 11 right hand points, got 14 in various shapes 56 metres / yards of flex track with no errors or trimming; got 38m 20 rerailers, got 4 56 metres of cork with no errors or trimming; got 7m 1 double-slip, got none And I could probably liberate more points from my ex-layout, currently collecting cobwebs in the garage. I would be tempted to go with my existing code80 for the staging yard (21m) and thus chew through most of the peco flex-track on the straight(ish) sections; and then see what brand does best in off-layout tests for the helix (15m) and the main deck (12 + 8 m) So now the question becomes: have I doodled and planned and over-engineered enough; and is it time to try to build benchwork and lay track?
Progress for 14 January 2008 Still no layout yet, but some tangential progress... Picked up some more flextrack and code 55 points on the weekend - tho not enough to do the main deck; and looked at an off-layout comparison of different brands + glue + cork + plywood. More details in my weblog. Suffice to say that at the 1 day mark I am happy with the results of all four tracks; they have done much better than any previous track to plywood or track to foam experiments I've done. Most Kinked award goes to Peco C80. Second place to Atlas C80 (I think I nicked a sleeper with the Dremel) It remains to be seen if they will stay happy and non-derailing over the rest of the week; if they can manage that, I might call that Good Enough and start using the technique on layout tracks. Since it's got power, a throttle and an engine and it all works, does that mean this counts as my Layout? Or do I need more than one piece of powered track for that title? I still need to find a Double Slip and an N-scale Duck - I think Preiser makes one... .. Until the next update, then ..
Progress for 18 January 2008, Benchwork Started (aside: glued tracks): After 4 days, the atlas and GT tracks haven't moved at all; I suspect the peco has shifted a little, but not enough to worry a 4-axle wagon. Benchwork: Despite the truly entertaining temperatures (at nearly midnight I have a fan blowing air towards me, can't be much over 76F), I spent some time in the garage with the Power Tools and made some framing for my benchwork. I've decided to build a fixed frame and attach that to the walls permanently; and then I can decide to build semi-removable modules or permanent modules on top of that. Permanent modules would use less timber and cause less heartache on the joins; but would be harder to wire and scenic. Semi-removable modules would use more timber, require heartache to make the joins work, but could be removed for fiddling like scenery and wiring. Since it is difficult to get a single 3m long piece of timber into the layout room, I decided that I would do all the messy cutting and drilling out in the garage, and carry pre-drilled beams inside to assemble in the room. It's like I've made a "kitset" of my benchwork. | | | (click to enlarge) You will need: electric drill for drilling holes timber that isn't too badly warped plan of the space with timber lengths noted a second electric drill for countersinking holes is handy compound mitre saw for chopping timber to the wrong length a tape measure and pencil for marking timber at the wrong length a carpenters square for ensuring timber is marked at almost right angles a little jig for drilling all those holes (56 drilled and countersunk, 42 pilot holes only) Hopefully tomorrow morning before temperatures hit 80F I can screw my kitset together square-ish and take pictures of it to show off my handiwork. When it DOES hit 80F and starts trying for 85F, I might go for a drive in my car to the nqsLHS - at least my car has A/C! (NZ houses are rarely decently insulated, so it's seldom more than 1-3 degrees difference between inside and outside. But that's okay, because around here it rarely ever freezes, and 80F is considered hot - just as well since no-one has any A/C!) On the off-chance someone might be interested, I took some photos of the Garage while I was out there. These can be found in my rail-images gallery
The little glued tracks that could (Experiment in Plywood, part 3; Progress for 18 January 2008, part 2; aside, part 2) Okay, after my comment in my last post, I thought I'd power up the test track and see what a 6-axle thought of the kinks. The Atlas Code 55 track is beautiful; the 6-axle SD70M runs across the gap without a care in the world. To find the gap, follow the pencil line across the middle of the drawing. (Click to zoom in.) The Peco Code 80. Umm.. Well.. She derails! both trucks, not a hope of making it through okay. There's a loud click at the kink and it's all over. (Anyone need help finding the kink?) For reference, 4 days ago the 6-axle passed both joints without derailing. (hmm. no clear photos of a gapped and not excessively kinked track) So, what should I do with it? Do I scream? Do I cry? Do I dig a large hole in the back yard and bury all 30-odd metres of peco C80 that I have sitting around? Or do I simply refuse to use it on anything more curved than a not very curvy thing? I definitely ain't using it to lay my helix! And it's use on the staging tracks just got a big question mark applied to it.
Hmmm... What to do... You could do all of the above, I know I would! But seriously can you lift the track and re-lay it. Like you, I did some experimentation with track laying before I started my layout and discovered that Peco flexi was a little harder to work with than Atlas to get the same result. It can be done, I am sure that Peco flexi will be ok for your hidden staging. Just make sure that you have the track well pinned down after you apply the glue. I have been using "Liquid Nails" on my trackwork with good results. There have been odd sections of track that I have lifted and re-layed with no real grief. With joins in the middle of a sweeping curve I join two lengths of track first by soldering the joiners to give a really long single length of track that you can gently curve to suit your road bed. And as mentioned before, pin the track securely after gluing down and you are happy with the joins. I also use springloaded clamps and or "G" clamps with a small scrap piece of MDF flat across the track to keep things in place while the glue dries. Just an extra note: There are differences you may or may not be aware of between Atlas and Peco flexi. Peco track: Both rails can slide in and out and it doesn't matter whitch way you curve the track. The underside of the track has gaps between the ties that alternate side to side that allow this to happen. When you bend the track it will tend to hold that shape. Atlas track: One rail is fixed and only one rail is able to slide. The sliding rail should be on the inside of the curve. The underside of the track has gaps between the ties on one side only. When you bend the track it will tend to snap back to straight and not hold a curve. What this means is when laying Peco track to get a nice smooth curve requires some pushing and pulling. While the Atlas track has some natural tension, pin one end and push the other and it will form a nice smooth curve every time. Hope that helps?
I presume you have to have a gap on the curve? I would avoid any gap on a curve with any type of track if you can. No doubt that the code 55 is much better in this case.
For this experiment I've actually deliberately introduced the gap in the curve, which is just on a scrap piece of ply. I want to see what it does when I do that. The reason is simple: my last layout I became frustrated and disheartened and eventually stopped working on it, and tore it all out, because of flextrack on curves. I would get it perfect, the 6-axle would run through it and it would be beautiful. Ten minutes or 12 hours later, the engine would derail. I would add pins and spikes and glue and anything I could think of; and make the track perfect, and the 6-axle would run through it and be fine. Ten minutes or 12 hours later, the engine would derail. This time around, I have decided that I am not going to have this layout do that to me. I really don't need the grief, and I would just give up on trains and go watch TV. Thus, an experiment on a scrap piece of plywood to see if there is any method I can use to actually get the track to stay put. And, for everything but peco code 80, I can. Happy thought: I can lay flex track on curves and across module joints and with a little care it looks like it will work. Sad thought: I have 30+ pieces of peco flex track that are only good for straight lines. And now I should probably go and slice up my new pieces of timber and add them to my kitset benchwork, so I can add photos to the thread! Obviously when I actually start laying track on the layout I will be following good practices where possible: sliding rail on the inside of the curve solder joints on curves expansion gaps on the straights only glue and/or pins to hold track down keep module joins away from sensitive trackwork - points and curves And I may even solder circuit board to the rails across module joins when I get that far.
Progress for 19 January 2008 Spent the early part of the day assembling the benchwork, before hiding in my nice cool car to fetch more timber (9.6m of 1x4, 9.6m of 1x3 and 26.4m of 1x2 - should last me a week or two) This stage required an electric screwdriver - I went with my high-torque 240V drill, because I didn't make the pilot holes deep enough! as well as a right-angle clamp, some C/F clamps, and a supply of screws. | | Looking closely you should be able to see the screws everywhere. Using the 40' gon to mark the probable track height for reference. Putting the cardboard helix base and yard ladder back in place for space testing
Having more timber, I added some Legs to the Helix I've lowered the staging deck by 2" to improve the viewing angle; although that means the helix duck-under is also 2" lower, and I'm starting to notice that already.. 2" lower also means the layout is closer to the computer monitors than I would like; as we can see if we look back up the yard towards the helix: Nothing for it, those old-fashioned heat-producing particle accelerators just have to go.. So I bought me a shiny new LCD display. Going from 1.9M pixels to 2.3M. This freed up a little bit of space around the keyboard, which has promptly filled with clutter - a clamp, a cellphone, two tape measures and a tube of Liquid Nails. That last piece of timber is just clamped down at present; I should be able tomorrow to work out how to clamp it and screw it down so that it's square, without demolishing that corner of the room. Going forward, I hope to be able to run some wires for the lighting and then maybe even tack up the backdrop(s), before they get buried by layout and access gets harder.
