Actually, MTL is doing a GP9 and AZL is doing a GP7. Similar but not quite the same. AZL originally planned on doing both but I think they dropped their version of the GP9 when MTL announced theirs. Randy
Awesome data lists Hemi. I've been looking for something like this for years! Looks like the Alco list is missing and the GE list isn't complete, but still a very good source! Thanks, Randy
Relevant truck centers: GP7/9: 31' GP30/35: 32' U18B: 30'8" When I firt thought of the U18B as a possible shell, I was thinking for the upcoming GP7 or GP9, since the length is closer.
I just saw the drawings and noticed the choice I thought was a RS-11 was really a RS-II (2). I don't have a GP35 to know what the frame is like, but there must be some dead space under there to get a RS-2 shell on it. The hoods would still be too wide just like the GP35's, but at least now I could give a RS-2 a vote even though I wouldn't buy one. Most Erie RS units had very small fuel tanks that would be hard to model: http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/loco/erie1030blb.jpg Plus I would rather have a set of GP7/9's than a set of alco's. It will be interesting to see what the MT GP9 looks like compared to the AZL GP7. Some AZL locomotives have a etched section of doors that fit on each side of the motor to make the hood thinner. http://www.zscalemonster.com/azl/SD70AZL001.jpg It could be that the AZL's model looks much better, but we'll see. I would love to see F3A's & B's if the shells were nice and crisp!
Since I have built one of Tim's Mi-Jacks I can speak here. I have a large collection of photos of Mi-Jacks. So far I have yet to find two units that are exactly the same. FWIW if you take two automobiles of the same type & model or two of anything else assembled at different locations you will find they are NOT the same - NOT by a country mile. So what does Tim do, but make a kit that gets the flavor - and believe me it is a darn good flavor!! Same for Lajos or MTL or Robert or anyone else making MODELS!! ..and I have assembled a goodly number of these. Anyone complaining about a model in Z that is plus or minus 3 inches in some dimension does not have his head bolted on too tightly. That measurement variation amount is getting into the thickness of a coat of paint on the model when increased to the real world measurement. Don't forget paint is ALWAYS real world thickness whether the item is protoype or 1:10,000. Further I suspect if one is complaining about that type of measurement variation, the complainer has yet to build his first model or layout, but most likely is in the THINKING stage, and has been thinking about a layout for the last 20 years. Yes there are a few dud models out there, but 99.99% of the stuff we see here and talk about here is exceptionaly realistic. ...don
My head is still on plenty tight, but thanks for thinking otherwise. I've built plenty of stuff, but thanks for thinking otherwise. :hmm4er:
Keep in mind that 3" in O scale is one 16th of an inch. While I may not notice if something is 3" off, I would notice if at first glance it doesn't even look like what it is supposed to be. At all possible times I would make things as close to scale as I could. If I was a company and was going to mass produce items, I would doubly make sure that things "looked right" I think Tim's container lift is a perfect example. I have no idea what the dimensions are of the real machine, but looking at Tim's model, it looks "right" ...I doubt that is by accident! Sometimes MT will skip right over prototype dimensions, they do it in N scale and probably more so in Z. Anyways, if Searails does make a locomotive shell I hope it is a success. Even if I don't buy one the fact that it is a success will mean the more likely there will be more (hopefully closer to prototype) models in th future. And I always hope the next model is better than the last.
I think the jist of this thread is, we would all like there to be more locomotives available, and while some would like it to be 100% accurate, others would just like to have the locomotive, even if there is some compromises. Some of us may never see the day that our favorite locomotives are accurately released in Z, so an offer of a compromise is our best hope. An example is the U25C. It was made available in N Scale, as a lumpy offering many years ago, but has never appeared in N and I doubt it ever will. Z? Not a chance in my lifetime, so a U18B shell might be the closest starting point I ever see. It's an NP Favorite of mine, but an obscure loco that few railroads other than NP and Conrail ever owned. I would have to think that a shell kit for another locomotive would be a compromise, just by sake of the mechanism not being expressly designed for that shell. But now that I think of it, I am willing to play with whatever shells I can get to increase the variety of models I have. I'll focus on NP down the road, and play with what I can now.
actually now that I think about it ... if AZL and MTL are making High-nose GP-79s ... I wouldn't mind a low-nose GP9 shell
Is Z REALLY Viable as a Scale?? Hobo Tim[/QUOTE] "The only thing I was trying to say in my original posting is that a desire exists that is great for everything that is made in "N" scale, to be made in "Z" scale, and they want it now! That ain't going to happen, at least not that quick. Alot of people are going to have to settle with items that are not quite prototypical, or actually look correct, but just so long as the item has the Flavor, then alot of people will be satisfied, at least till a better version is produced." I'm wondering if there Z Scalers aren't just a small, vocal group who are in denial about the future prospects for Z. You have two "major" manufactuers, one of whom is in bankruptcy and has made only a few decent North American pieces (GG1, IC 4-6-0 and open platform cars) and the other is in Z only because they don't have to compete with other manufacturers that they think have taken away their business in N Scale. A few diehards have commissioned plastic and brass projects but no mainstream companies see Z as an opportunity.. or at least haven't so far. You are fortunate in that there are small-scale manufacturing processes available now that were not around when OO and TT went nowhere in years past.... but with so few mainline suppliers I really admire your optimism!! I raise this for more than my own curiousity.... are all the major manufactures missing a business opportunity or is Z Scale a non-starter? Charlie Vlk Railroad Model Resources (whose Z Scale handlaid test layout-on-a-plank resides in Mike Skibbe's basement along with some of my Nelson Gray and MicroMachine cars)
Ohh, Them's fightin' words. ;-) What is your definition of "Viable as a Scale"? Worldwide or in the USA? In Germany, Z is just as popular as N. AZL is becoming a large manufacturer if you look at the number of products they are releasing, yes that's still only 3 major players (although you could count Bowser as a major player even if all the Z scale work they have done has been commisioned by others). More and more products are coming out from major players as well as small companies. More small companies are appearing. So many products are coming out that i can't even keep up. And what is the minimum of commercially manufactured products for a scale to be considered "Viable". At the beginning of HO and N, they had fewer products than Z does now. Is model railroading all just about ready to run product? What about people actually building models? Some of the best work I've seen in any scale is coming from Z right now. To some that is an attraction, the challenge of it. I see more and more N scalers converting to Z because they feel there is no challenge left in N now. My 2 cents. Randy
Charlie, You SO have not done your research. Z scale is the 2nd fastest growing scale on the market today. It only lags behind garden railroading. What do you mean no mainstream companies see Z as an opportunity. Do you not consider Micro-Trains main stream? Look at MTL, in the last year, GP35s, ballasted track, new rolling stock such as PS2 covered hoppers and 50' FMC boxcars. Let us not forget their upcoming GP9 release plus more new rolling stock. Also, you don't know about American Z Line. Let's look at their line: Brass: C44 E8 PA1 SD45 F45 SD40-2 SD40T-2 GS3 GS4 SP articulated passenger cars AC12 cab forward Injection: F59PHIs Bombardier cars California cars The ONLY injection Surfliner on the market SD70M SD75I Announced injection: GP7 GP9 Coal porters Autoracks Z scale also has a number of startup. Pennzee offers three bay hoppers and reefers. Full Throttle is offering cylindrical hoppers. There is much more on the market than most people give us credit for. It is THE reason Z is one of the few scales actually growing today. Z is viable. It is real. You have have had to go to every National Train Show since 2000 to see the module displays and realize Z is for real. Rob Kluz
You are fortunate in that there are small-scale manufacturing processes available now that were not around when OO and TT went nowhere in years past.... but with so few mainline suppliers I really admire your optimism!! Charlie Vlk Railroad Model Resources [/QUOTE] I forgot to mention that in Z scale it's not really "optimism" that seems to drive us, it is a disease of a very passionate nature. I started in HO and went to N for a awhile before discovering Z and in my experience, the only other model railoroaders I've met that are as passionate as Z scalers are G "scalers". Maybe it has something to do with a persecution complex, maybe it has something to do with the uniqueness of the challenge of micro-miniature models, maybe it has to do with the cute factor, I don't know, but it is strong and getting stronger. While I see model railroading as a whole on the decline, it still seems that interest (shown by the number of new modelers and clubs in z scale) is still growing fast. Other than G scale, I see more women in Z than any other scale. Perhaps that is because we are a little more welcoming than some of the grumpy old men I've run in to. Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling all non-Z scale model railroaders grumpy old men, but that stereotype does not hold true AT ALL in Z scale. If you want to grow the hobby, you have to be welcoming to all. Randy Smidt
Charlie pulled the pin and lobbed! Rob- After you get past the anger and read Charlie's post again, I think you'll find that he already addressed MTL as mainstream and Pennzee and others were the small passionate start-ups that he mentioned. I wouldn't count brass as mainstream anything, but you do have a point with the AZL plastic offerings. They are releasing as many new models in plastic as many of the mainstream N and HO companies. The magic number for cutting hard tooling for an injection molded piece of rolling stock is around 300 pieces. A good question for this debate would be, "Has Robert been able to sell 300 of a single freight car kit to the current Z scale market?" If he's close with laser cut kits, and with no real marketing to support the sales, then I'd call the scale viable. If Robert is in the 100-150 piece range, then maybe it's not quite there yet.
