You're perfectly welcome not to like the show you attend if, in your opinion, it stinks- no problem there. And under no circumstances are you obliged to buy anything from anybody- if their price ain't right, it sits there. You and I are on the same page of the hymnal there. However........ I leave my nitpicking tools at the door, and have little tolerance for such individuals myself. When it comes to display layouts, I have more respect than to openly criticize their work. If the show is not organized in your opinion, and you take those complaints to those possible, be ready to get asked to volunteer to help with the next show. This is put-up-or-shut-up time.....if you agree, and volunteer at the next show, good for you. If not, why complain? It's good to have an LHS nearby that does you right. Not many people are that lucky.
I agree Yo-ho....I quit going years ago....I remember when you could get deals from all kinds of vendors. I was always short on $$ so I would save up and wait for the one SoCal show (now there are 3 to 5 in our same locale). I used to take $200-300. But I could guarantee I could get one loco for 10% off, 2- 15% off, 3 or more 20%.......and close outs and stuff...WOW! But like we all know now....oh hummm. No deals, same stuff as LHS, higher prices, and large crowds, parking fees and traffic.
Just purely from a logic standpoint, the put up or shut up argument doesn't really work. I've paid money to enter the show. That's how I've helped out. If I don't desire to volunteer, because it's not something that interests me or doesn't fit in with my time constraints, well, that doesn't negate my right to tell them (or you here, some of whom may also qualify as them) what would make me willing to plunk down my money again. We are on the same page about the layouts I think. I would never openly criticize anybodies work, on principle and for the practical reason that I'm not exactly the greatest ever. It's in bad taste. However, I don't feel bad about discussing what they chose to model and how I feel about it. Nor do I feel bad discussing what I prefer seeing. We each have our preferences. If seeing a dash 9 pull a string of reefers is jarring to you? Or you'd prefer more prototypical operation, then that's fine. We're all different. I made a comment about Carnivals and airports. They seem to be popular module subjects at shows. Often I've seen modular layouts with 2 carnivals on them. I'm not personally a fan. I'd prefer some different scenery. I'm not judging talent. I'm expressing my desires. And as you rightly point out, If nobody is making the module you want to see or running the trains the way you want them run? Well, join the club and make that module and run that train. But even if you can't do that, I don't think it's inappropriate to discuss what we like or don't like here. In fact, I think it's an interesting discussion that could perhaps improve things. This thread has already given me a few things to ponder for next time.
I have to agree that shows aren’t what they use to be, but I still enjoy going. All of the shows, but one or two, we attend are at malls [which the wife likes] and such, so don’t have parking or admission charges. There isn’t near as many bargains available now like before, but I still find a few things cheaper than I could buy elsewhere. I enjoy the layouts displayed, talking with the folks running them and watching the people looking as the trains go round. An added bonus is that the closest show is an hour drive I get to do a little rail fanning along the way. So, as long as we have the extra cash, we’ll keep going. inch
And its not there job to care how little you wish to pay for it. They set their lowest price, and they either sell it, or they don't. Either way, they had jsut as much fun attending the show and seeing all the other cool stuff everybody has to offer - they're at the show for much the same reason as you nad me! If you want to see something, get your own layout over there and let the world see it. It's not the world's responsibilty to cater to your desires and needs.
If they are going to a show with items to sell, then clearly, their goal is to sell them. If they don't wish to sell them, then they can save a whole bunch of fees and just not bring it. Since their goal is to sell, then they darn well better care what the market is willing to pay for those items. They probably had to purchase that stuff at a risk. They're out money. Now maybe the price I'm willing to pay is too low for them to receive a handsome profit, but if the stuff isn't selling at all, then they are even worse off. This is basic business here. All of which gets back to my comment wondering how these people can justify their business case. As to what is and isn't the world's responsibility. Now your just being argumentative. The Goal of the show is to entertain as many people as they can. My goal is going was to be entertained. I have outlined some things that would make me more entertained and it sounds like many others are equally disappointed. It's wholey appropriate for the organizers to pay attention to what the feels are of the attendees and it's wholey appropriate for the vendors to listen to the desires of their potential customers. If they don't, then sooner or later there will be no show.
Remember, it's one thing to complain about a show, and yet another to do something to change it. If you're not willing to help volunteer, and continue to gripe about this or that train show, best suggestion I can make is not go. Granted, if enough people stay away,either the powers-that-be may need to make changes or stop doing shows. I would rather not see train shows & swap meets disappear myself, and I think it's up to vendors, private sellers, the folks who put on these shows,and us, the attendees of said shows, to make the changes necessary. OR...........in the tradition of a young Judy Garland and Mickey Rooney, put on your own show or swap meet. BTW, a Dash-9 pulling cattle cars doesn't rattle me, even though I know it isn't prototypical. I tossed that out because of some comments another poster made about non-prototypical running, which to me is nitpicking and just asking for trouble. I prefer era-correct equipment, but I understand other folks enjoy the hobby differently, and I'm cool with it. I've seen some display layouts that were well-built, and some that looked, well, to be kind, not so good. I've known of clubs that were asked not to come back to certain shows because of their actions, members, etc. I've seen some of the same guys selling the same (to me) low-value, over-priced crapola year after year,and I avoid them like the plague. However, to some, these guys may be the only way some folks of humble means can afford this hobby. Personally, I can do without the brass track, Tyco transformers, and locomotives with motors that last as long as ice in summer. Now, I HAVE converted some of the Tyco flats and pulpwood cars to presentable-looking & decent-running pieces of rolling stock body-mounted Kadees, new truck w/metal wheels, better details, paint & weathering), so it's not all bad. Now, to avoid being flamed by some of the good vendors, yes, I do shop at their displays, and again, if the price is right and I have the coin, it's going home with me. If it's at least reasonable, I may consider getting it. If the price is, IMO, high, I walk empty-handed. (this is where I wish George at WigWag would return to Ft. Worth or Plano again......sigh......) There was someone, can't remember who, did a treatise called "The Socioloy of Model Railroading" which can be found via Google. Personally, I found most of it to be pompous crap, but there are nuggets of truth in this screed. It also covers swap meets & train shows as well. I agree that this discussion is worthwhile, and as long as we all keep on subject, it's all good Back to the layout......got track to lay............
Well got back a earlier from what I thought was a very good show. Talked with Kato, Micro-Trains, and several others, as well as talked with George at Wig Wag. He opened my eyes to a few things, and I purchased several things from him. Bought more items then I thought I would but really enjoyed my time there, and I would definitely go to another show the next time one comes to town. Steve
A couple of comments. Many of the major shows pay (ok, not much) local clubs to set up layouts to get people in the door. Consider your admission fee going to support your local club to set up in public, it will make you feel a lot better, and is somewhat true. Also, here's how I look at it. I don't have good LHS's, so I buy mail order. Every shipment is $5-$10 for shipping. If it costs me $7 to get in, that's no worse than buying a single item mail order, more or less. I like the "oddball" vendors. If you're looking for a good deal on a recent Atlas release, a show is the wrong place. I've found great deals from people offering tools, cameras for our models, jackets, signs, and other products. There's no margin in rolling stock and locomotives, and too many people offering the same product. Look to some of the other things.
There's a big show tomorrow, so I'll see how it goes. And for the record, I see NO problem with a little nit-picking at display layouts at train shows. What's the point of not having any preferences and looking at layouts and not having an opinion about them. Or not having a good eye, and being a little critical? And if something doesn't look good to me, I never say it to anyone. I know the modelers are all talented. And I would certainly never put anybody down for modeling something that doesn't look too prototypical. I respect all model railroaders, and just love being around trains. I just rather see certain things.
Found it here: http://www.trainweb.org/lfnwfan/html/Sociology.htm I agree it's a little pompous, but in general, I agree with the conclusions in particular about swap meets and train shows. He loses me when he gets into discussing online forums though. Not because I think he's particularly wrong, but because he's clearly ignorant of or ignoring internet culture as a whole. A culture which informs everything on the internet even this place. All his talk of flaming and privileged members etc etc etc are functions of internet discussion boards as a whole and while there may be destructive tendencies there, they are universally destructive. By not placing his comments in context of the sociology of the internet, he loses perspective. The section on Clergy is a straight up rant. I can't speak too much on the section on clubs except to agree that the La Mesa Club is a gold standard. It sounds more like a discussion of human nature in general then something particular to model railroading. Which doesn't make it inaccurate. The comments on the NMRA seem accurate though nothing new. The comments on the magazine are interesting reading, but again, I think it would benefit from a look at the publishing world outside of model railroading. The Internet has had a huge influence here. His WOrld's greatest hobby section retreds the swap meet/trainshow section. His conclusion is long winded and seems focused on the failings of Model Railroader. In short, I think he's spot on in his critique of shows and swap meets. Spot on from the comments on pricing to the comments on the presentability of the vendors. Everything else in the article gets tedious though the section on magazines is interesting.
A nice little interesting quote from this little article. "However, they are informal insofar as efforts are seldom made to enforce state sales tax laws."
An ignorant statement from the author, IMO- but, it only takes one time getting caught to rein 'em in if they're supposed to be charging sales tax.
The last several shows I have been to, I have noticed more vendors charging tax. In that regard, I don't mind. I'd rather not pay it, but who wouldn't. However, the vendors have to do what they have to do to comply w/ the law. The bottom line is I appreciate them participating in the shows. What I DO APPRECIATE are vendors that have various items priced such that you pay a "round" figure after the tax. For example, an item costing $23.81 in VA comes out to an even $25 after sales tax. I'd be walking around w/ quite a bit of "poker change" hardware in my pocket after about 3 hours or so of walking the show aisles.
That's a little misleading by the Author. First, he's specifically commenting on Swap meets there. Many of the vendors at a swap me aren't making enough to qualify to pay sales tax. Certainly some are. Also, he assumes that the vendors aren't simply calculating the sales tax into the price of the item to begin with. That's a standard tactic. Still, I suspect he's right that there are a number of less then honest vendors.
Makes me glad I live in Oregon. There is no sales tax on anything. At the WGH Show many of the vendors from out of state couldn't get used to not charging sales tax. There is a state income tax but that only applies to Oregon residents or someone working for wages in Oregon who live somewhere else. The rate for out of state residents is lower than for us.
When I was living in Portland, my most fervent dream was to get a job in south west Washington (no state income tax) live there and do all my shopping in Oregon.
When I was much younger, I worked at a ice cream place where we did not calculate or charge sales tax. What happened was that the owner calculated how much of the sale was allocated to tax and sent that to the state. It was over 40 years ago that I was a kid and this was described to me, but the sales tax is the responsibility of the seller. The seller is then allowed to forward that cost on to the purchaser so there is not any requirement that a seller charge sales tax. The requirement is that the seller forwards the correct amount to the state.
Just went to a big show today. Don't really have any criticisms, other than it just wasn't that good, meaning I didn't see much that interested me. Product wise as well as money wise. I did however find a nice centerbeam by Walthers. (I'm trying to expand my fleet of these type cars.) The price on the box was 19.75 or something like that. So I figured the tax was included. When it was time to pay, the cost was 21 something. Plus the box was dented and the extra grab irons were missing. I'm still happy that I found a car I wanted though. Even so, do you think it was worth it? Same price as in store, but in bad shape box and missing add-ons?
