Well, I just tested my GS-4 using two AA batteries (roughly 3 volts 'pure' DC) and the sound it makes vs. with my MRC Tech II 2500 power pack is like night and day. When powered by the batteries, the only sound is whisper-quiet from the gear train and the motor brushes. I have a Kato SD70, C44-9, and the GS-4 (yes, I'm newly returned to the hobby in N-Scale) and all three locos sound like miniature door buzzers when creaping along at slow speeds when powered by the Tech II. This buzzing is not extreme, and the locos don't sound 'broken', but it is there. I just assumed this was a normal operating sound because the Tech II is the only power pack I've used. As the throttle is increased (thus increasing the speed of the locos), the buzzing diminishes. I'm assuming this is because as the Tech II voltage increases, its 'pulse' effect decreases, too. My GS-4, in addition to the motor buzzing, was also making the other 'chattering' sound at slow speed (buzzing, vibrating motor hitting the left frame). So I'm thinking my issue was a combo problem. Buzzing motor (caused by power pack with too much 'pulse' effect) and motor vibration creating 'chattering' noise by hitting loco frame. FYI - I never experienced any electrical shorting using DC nor did I have any derailment problems with my GS-4. I guess my patience while laying my track paid off! ryan
Pulse? Ryan, If you truly have "Pulse" you are in big trouble. And I thought I was done. Ryan and all tuned in, Pulse and Momentum are not the same thing. The Tech II, 2500 is the same one I own. It is a transistorized throttle, the purest form of DC you can buy and it does not have any "Pulse effect". "Momentum"...Yes! But not "Pulse". You might want to drop back a post or two where I discuss the difference. If you want to. You don't have to. Not mandatory. Another thing in your favor, the transformer is more about amperage then it is voltage. A 3 volt battery or a set of them does not an amp make. Therefore, there will be a difference in the sound you hear coming from your locomotives. I don't believe the sound you hear in your GS4 locomotive has anything to do with your transformer. Although, if you are hearing humming or chattering coming from your other locomotives you might want to consider having your transformer.... checked. That does concern me. The only thing I hear with mine is the normal electric motor and gear noises. I think you said you were hearing humming or some such noise coming from your other locomotives at low speeds...right? What happens when you turn the "Momentum" option on? Does the sound get worse? Again, you might want to drop back and see what others have said. Till later. Have fun! .
I will look to see what power we have at the club. We're still DC at the club, but I know the powerpacks are better than the crummy little used 1310 I have at home. Adam
Electrical "buzzing" or mechanical "chattering?" Both? Okay, now I'm confused? 1. If not the power pack, why does toggling from my Troller AutoPulse 2.5 to my MRC Tech 4.350 cause the chattering noise to go away (almost completely)? 2. Why is the GS-4 the only of 20-some locos - old steam to new deisel - chattering like this? Rick (thanks for jumping back in), my noise is a "rattling," not a buzziing. Sounds like plastiic. The GS-4 (bless its heart) starts slowly and runs perfectly smoothly. The rattling kicks in suddenly around 10-20 mph (only in forward) and goes away when slowing to 10-20 mph. Again, it goes away when I switch packs. I think I understand the explanations of 'pure DC,' transisterized, pulse and momentum. But I'm still confused.... Five years ago, I bought an MRC "Tech 4.350" so I'd have walk-around for remote switching. I wired it into the layout, and all my locos became doorbells. I called MRC (bad deal), and - utteriing only a few words - they sent me a transformer to wire to the Tech 4. The locos all resumed normal behavior. I use the Tech 4 only for it's walk-around, because it causes my locos to run erratically - speeding and slowing slightly. It does, as we've just seen, cause the GS-4's chattering or rattling to go away. Electrical? At least 3 of us can make the loud chattering (not "buzzing") go away by switching packs (I haven't tested a load over Mt. Shasta's grade, yet). There's clearly something differrent happening when I switch packs. Mechanical? Ryan found a vibration and buffered it to kill the noise. That sounds pretty convincing, too. Guess I'd better beat tracks to the store and get some 9Vs back into the smoke detectors... Scott
I checked my GS out on cab 2 with the tech 4 200 MRC power pack and there wasn't a sound difference between it and my controlmaster 20 at all. On other locomotives I've noticed my CM20 is quieter than my tech 4, but the sound difference is at very low motor RPM. The sound may be eminating from the power pack because it is not putting out a "clean" DC power source. One item I will be interested in here in the future is the bearing life of this loco. I've seen with my brass locos, the bearings on the geard driver will start to wear before the rest due to the forces of the side rod action. I don't know if this will be the case with the GS-4 since the TT's are on the geared driver, the rest will be along for the ride when the loco is pulling a large consist and not really assisting with the tractive effort. Only time will tell here.
Confused? Sorting it out! Scott and please all tuned in, Glad to be able to jump back in...thank-you! Your confused? You now have me sorting it out. I'm no expert or God of the trains but I do pretty good diagnosing or performing problem identification and problem resolution. Let's see what thoughts I can share. Siskiyou submitted: A Troller AutoPulse seems to be responsible for the noise. Kozmo submitted: His Tech'y appears to be making the noise. Ryan submitted: His TechII was responsible for making the noise. SP Steam submits: His transformers appear to offer differences in noise and suggests this may have to do with a ""clean" DC power source"". May I suggest... SP steam hit the nail on the head. It's possible that some of you have a lemon of a power pack and it may not be outputting as clean a DC... as required. More to come on this subject. Calling in a Expert: I just got off the phone with my good friend the electrician/electronics. Some of the information I shared here in this post... previously, is incorrect. I will edit this post rather then start over and leave a oops here for posterity. Revised 2-5-08. Last edit: 2-27-08. Troubleshooting: We need to establish some sort of base to work from. So rather then back up to what I've already submitted here and repeat it, I will build from it. Well, we might need to review some as we go along. Locomotive Noise: Typically a transformer won't send noise to a locomotive mechanism. Most noises, are generated from within the locomotive itself, due to mechanical failure or electrical failure. You might have a whistle or bell noise generator as in Lionel's locomotives or with the new DCC sound systems. Nothing new here and most of us already know that. AC "Chatter" A Tell Tale: Your transformer can be responsible for a chatter in your locomotive. The only way to know for sure is to open up the transformer and perform a specific test. This can be done with a Radio Shack (poor boy) meter. Set it to the DC side on the low end 5 or 10 volts. To test accurately you would need to locate the bridge rectifier and place the positive lead on the positive output and the negative lead on the negative side. Your meter should show activity. Flip the leads and you shouldn't see any activity. Hears the kicker...In the event you see activity in the flip mode, on your meter, it's because a diode is leaking current backwards. Allowing AC to escape out to the track. This is called a bleeding rectifier. Just a review: A diode only allows current to flow in one direction. Four diodes make up a bridge rectifier and turns AC into DC. In the event a diode leaks you will hear a chatter in the motor. However, the chatter will be universal...in "ALL" your locomotives. The battery factor: Using a battery to test your locomotives is not a bad idea. A number of you have stated that the chattering noise was present with both the battery test and the transformer. In such a case you can't blame the transformer, keeping in mind a battery can't leak AC and a transformer can. If AC is leaking and is the cause...you wouldn't hear the chatter under battery power. This clearly points to a mechanical problem in the locomotive. The battery voltage mentioned to test your locomotives Ie., 3 volts or 9 volts isn't an accurate test. You would need to test your locomotive with a battery voltage... equivalent to the voltage or amperage of the transformer Ie., a car battery. Pulse Power: Siskiyou, you have a "Troller AutoPulse", this sounds like a later version of the "Pulse" type of transformers I've already discussed or showed my disgust for...in a previous post. You indicated the sound clears up when you switch from the Troller to the Tech 4.350...as it should. I would steer clear of using the "Pulse". I wish I knew more about the "Troller AutoPulse". If this is a true "Pulse" product it uses AC to control the speed of the locomotive thus the AC Chatter. I would be inclined to take it off line immediately and switch to a "Momentum" type of power pack. Let the boys with the older HO engines play with this one. Intermittent Short: Electric current experiencing a momentary physical contact positive to negative. May I suggest in this case it comes and goes in a rapid fire but for a short period of time. For example: If you are providing positive current to the left drivers and they touch the metal frame carrying the negative and do this in rapid succession, what effect will this have on the motor? Stalling it for sure if the short lingers. It may also cause a momentary reversing motion of the motor causing said "Chatter". Home Layouts: In all the posts the noise is coming primarily from the Kato GS4 Daylighter while operating on home layouts. This is where all the trouble seems to start with regard to the talkative...chattering locomotives. This may have more to do with AC leakage from our transformers. Derailments: Derailments seem to be focused on the pilot trucks. Others mentioned while crossing over Kato's #6 Unitrack Switches. Others of you also shared that you ran your locomotives on club layouts with little or no problems with sound or derailments. Perhaps a different noise to listen to as the wheels clatter along across the ties. Conclusion Deductive Reasoning: Simply, "IF" the sound hasn't gone away no matter what transformer or battery you use. You, me, we... can safely conclude, it is the GS4's mechanism to blame and not the transformer. Review: A battery is pure DC with no AC present. However, a transformer may be leaking AC, therefore the tell tale AC "Chatter". If there is "Chatter" present when you use the battery then the problem is mechanical...inside the GS4. Mechanical: I would be looking at the intermittent short and/or the side rod's pushing against the geared driver. Which in turn pushes against the motor and can also cause a "Chatter". This could be an out of quartering issue. Check to see if the motor is seated properly or is isolated from the frame. You've all been kind enough to point toward something else outside the locomotive as the source for the problem. I'm sure papa Kato appreciates that. I appreciate that as I'm still waiting delivery of my Kato GS4 Daylighter. I'd prefer to blame something outside the box... as well. I will let you know what I learn with mine...so stay tuned. Thanks for the read. Feel free to stump the stumper or is that thump the thumper...yawn! Have fun! I won't even discuss/disgust the topic of traction tires. Ok, so I just did! Sheesh!
Check out this throttle: http://users.rcn.com/weyand/tractronics/articles/ccartcl/ccartcl.htm My Kato GS-4 runs very well on one. The Kato GS-4 is also a track tester like the old one powered truck Bachmann DD40. Your trackwork needs to be almost perfect. Same with my ConCor GS-6, runs about the same as the Kato and it has a backup light on the tender, but its pickup is not as good as the Kato. The Kato draws about 60% as much current as the ConCor. Al
Pulse and Momentum are not the same thing. The Tech II, 2500 is the same one I own. It is a transistorized throttle, the purest form of DC you can buy and it does not have any "Pulse effect". "Momentum"...Yes! But not "Pulse". You might want to drop back a post or two where I discuss the difference. If you want to. You don't have to. Not mandatory. Another thing in your favor, the transformer is more about amperage then it is voltage. A 3 volt battery or a set of them does not an amp make. Therefore, there will be a difference in the sound you hear coming from your locomotives. I don't believe the sound you hear in your GS4 locomotive has anything to do with your transformer. Although, if you are hearing humming or chattering coming from your other locomotives you might want to consider having your transformer.... checked. That does concern me. The only thing I hear with mine is the normal electric motor and gear noises. I think you said you were hearing humming or some such noise coming from your other locomotives at low speeds...right? What happens when you turn the "Momentum" option on? Does the sound get worse? Again, you might want to drop back and see what others have said. Till later. Have fun! .[/quote] Maybe I'm not clear on the terminology (pulse) and its effect. The box for my MRC Tech II power pack clearly states it has pulse power, and also has what MRC calls PTC (Proportional Tracking Control). If the pack does have pulse, will it cause the humming/buzzing sound at low throttle settings? And is pulse and MRC's PTC the same thing? MRC's current power packs have PTC, but there is no indication if this is pulse power, or if the packs have pulse power. If I buy one of their new packs, will it perform just as my old Tech II? Anyway, I know I've kind of wandered off the original thread subject, but I appreciate all the input from you all. ryan
The MRC Tech 4 series has two features which I really don't know too much about... but... could be a form of advance 'pulse power'. Accutec Technology... this sound like a 'trademark' for the transistorized throttle. Proportional Tracking... this sounds like a form of pulse power which may have been refined to eliminate some of the undesirable effects of 'pulse'. If anyone has any additional info on these 'features???" of the MRC Tech 4 series... let us know. Maybe there is something in these features with helps or hurts performance.
I guess I should be clear that, regardless of the whole pulse/no pulse power issue, my GS-4 is now running flawlessly and is making no more noise than my Kato diesel locos do while being powered by my MRC Tech II pack. Once I mechanically isolated the motor from the frame, the extra buzzing/chattering sound at slow speeds was eliminated. Now where are those kinematic couplers??? And I'm also very interested to see what Richmond Controls' GS-4 Mars headlight will look like! ryan
GS-4 noise electrical, mechanical or both Wonderful input, but it sounds like we're quite divided on what's causing the noise. Our fellow Trainboard member, "Train Guy" Vince, has been testing and performing surgery on the Kato GS-4 for several solid days. I for one am very greatful for the hard work he's puting into chasing the GS-4 gremlins under the hood. After I e-mailed Vince about Ryan finding the motor vibrating against the left frame and silencing the noise, Vince e-mailed me back: "...The findings make sense. The motor has a bit of play in the frame. Pulse power injects a small amount of AC into the DC strream causing the motor armature to vibrate slightly breaking the inertia and allowing it to begin turning at a slower speed. This vibration can be transmitted to the frame causing the noise you are hearing. Considering that the motor has a bit of play, you may have more noise as the motor housing also tries to vibrate in the opposite direction of the armature...." A couple of us asked where to find a 'pure-DC' power pack, Again, Vince e-mailed me. He tested several packs, today, and noted that the MRC 1300 might be our best bet for "Clean" DC. Here are a few of his testing comments: "We tested the loco with various power packs. It makes a noise as you describe with packs that produce pulse power or momentum/slow start circuitry. With pure DC packs (like the cheep one you mentioned) it runs quiet. This is due to the motor chatter that is produced by the pulse power. I don't think that this is a defect in the loco...." "Scott, Here is what I found. I used 3 packs MRC 220 When the loco starts there is a noticeable clicking type sound from the motor like someting is hitting the inside of the boiler area. The sound dissipates a bit after turning the throttle up. In reverse the sound is louder but again when the throttle is turned up it get quieter. MRC1300 No noticeable noise from the motor in forward or reverse at any speed. This pack has no slow start pulse. Self built solid state throttle with injectable variable pulse width and amplitude. The motor hums at a wide pulse width as the pulse width is narrowed the hum gets higher in pitch. As the throttle is turned up the noise is reduced. This is in both directions. While on the DCC track the loco behaves like any other and the motor "sings" due to the square wave output injected into the DC voltage. In my estimation, without seeing the loco, I would say that your loco is responding to the pulse being injected into the DC at slow speeds and causing the noise. I don't think it is a defect in the loco. If you are uncomfortable with your loco I would suggest that you contact Kato and see if they would replace it. I have had very good experience with them...." Again, I thank Vince, Ryan, those of you with pockts full of batteries and everone putting time into this. Again, I'm electrically challenged, big time, and I still don't understand why my other locos are not reacting the same way to what could be a bad power source. Could the noise be the fault of both the power pack and the loco? Pulse power gone bad in my old Troller Auto Pulse 2.5? A loco whose motor is more sensitive to pulse circuitry than my other locos are? Play and a 'floating' motor in the GS-4, causing high-frequency momentary contact and shorting while the loco appears to move smoothly? Whatta you think - are we getting closer to a solution? "Siskiyou" Scott
If they are anything like the one's he makes for the F units, they will be the cat's meow! I know that he is working on it now and they will be two separate LED's.
Thank you for your investigative work, Scott. I think you've hit the nail directly on the head in regards to what is going on with GS-4's noise issue. As long as my pulse power is not damaging anything (no locos are overheating), I will continue to use it, since they do perform quite well with it. ryan
I Own Something With Pulse? Ryan, You wrote: Maybe I'm not clear on the terminology (pulse) and its effect. The box for my MRC Tech II power pack clearly states it has pulse power, and also has what MRC calls PTC (Proportional Tracking Control). If the pack does have pulse, will it cause the humming/buzzing sound at low throttle settings? And is pulse and MRC's PTC the same thing? MRC's current power packs have PTC, but there is no indication if this is pulse power, or if the packs have pulse power. If I buy one of their new packs, will it perform just as my old Tech II? Anyway, I know I've kind of wandered off the original thread subject, but I appreciate all the input from you all. ryan Responding I write: I own a WHAT? Ryan, Me thinks we are screwing up our quotes...somehow. I will have to check into this. It's not like me to purchase something with pulse power in it. Not after what I went through and what it did to a number of my HO locomotives. The pulse circuitry, pretty much died out back in the late 70's as the new transistorized throttle with "Momentum" technology took hold. Believe me, when I say the circuitry is not the same. I found the box mine came in. There's no mention of "Pulse Power" but it does mention "Proportional Tracking for most Realistic Railroad Operation". "Momentum or Fly Wheel Action" equipped with "a delay circuit slows the rate of track voltage change". This delay circuit that controls the increase and decrease of the voltage is unlike "Pulse Power". When our transformers (the Tech II 2500) came out it was state of the art...top of the line. Most of the newer power packs have been modeled after our units. I still think they are state of the art...thus my comments with regard to this power pack on previous posts. Proportional tracking just simply means the circuitry or a type of early memory chip controls the trains speed when operating in the momentum "On" option. More to come in the next paragraph. Many of us old timers still refer to the action taken by the new PTC circuitry as "Pulse Power" but in reality it's not the same circuitry...at all. We aren't doing any justice to this technology by calling it "Pulse Power". You wouldn't want the old "Pulse" circuitry running your locomotives as they use AC to control the train...grrrr! The transistorized throttle works on resistance and not AC. However, if a diode leaks current backwards you now have an AC "Chatter". The "Chatter" is a tell tale a ear mark that AC is present. This will be heard universally in "ALL your locomotives. The early form of Pulse did use AC to control the performance of the locomotive. My HO locomotives used to throw a chattering fit when I activated the pulse...on and off switch. Today, my HO and N scale locomotives excel with the "Momentum" technology. Remember, I said I only hear the sound of the electric motor and gears at work in my locomotives...NO CHATTER. Which means NO AC or old style "Pulse"...present. Sounds like you solved your problem and it's good to hear the locomotive is running well. So there is hope...after all. I must remember what you did to correct the problem. Did you get to read my post regarding the leaky AC...issue? It tends to dove tail into what "Train Guy"/Vince, has to say. Both are worth the read. I wish Vince had sounded off earlier...even if he calls it "Pulse". Grin! Thanks for your input...as well. I hope that helps. Have fun!
Good to have an expert sounding off here. Scott and all tuned in, I appreciate your asking Train Guy/Vince to put in his two cents. I would encourage everyone to give it a read. I will argue with him later...just kidding. Grin! Have fun! It's a insult to call Momentum, Pulse Power.
Any one try backing a passenger train thru turnouts? The tender coupler has so much lateral play that it actually pushes the headend car off the tracks when backing thru the left side of a Shinohara 3-way turnout. Any one change the tender coupler yet? Al
I haven't changed the tender coupler yet, I'll probably keep it stock kato for my passenger service engines, but the ones I'll use for fast freights will be swapped with something else. I've noticed the kato couplers don't like to mate with MT couplers. The katos mate well with accumates, but since I'm in the process of switching all my rolling stock to MT's, I don't want to have a couple accumated cars hanging around just for this purpose. Another alternative may be to just switch it to an accumate (cringe) so it will mate with both the kato and MT's without much hassle.
I'm with ya. All things now fixed on my GS-4 (knock on wood) She is test running now. Even with the 9 volt battery as a sole power source (pack wires removed) I still got some noise on an incline with about 19 cars. So I tried the isolate the motor deal. Here is what I ended up with finding to work perfectly: 1) To fix the noise (chatter) problem: On the firemans side of the motor, insert two small pieces of paper. for an idea the paper thickness I used. what I used was a couple small pieces torn from a Bachmann 2-6-6-2 exploded parts view sheet. One piece helped a lot, but I coudl still her a small amount of noise. so I added another and it is now perfect. I first tried a tear of the corner of an atlas switch cardboard backer. (think of it as thick paper) but IMO it was too thick as I noticed some other noise. I think it was not allowing the motor to still move a bit. 2) For the lights that I have had sometimes on, sometimes off: Those little brass connectors were not getting good contact (why I hate when they use contacts rather than wire and a good soldier joint) I tried to adjust the contacts, but to my surprise, they seem real wonky for a Kato part. no way to tighten them up real well. I got them the best I could. but still not staying on all the time. So then what I did, was to take two pieces of the atlas switch cardboard backing and set them at top of the inside of the boiler shell right above the contact area of the light board. PERFECT! my lights have been on solid now. Now I refer to it as my Kato - Bachmann - Atlas - Kozmo GS-4 Daylight.
