I wouldn't recommend this for everyone, but I hooked up my grandson's MRC "Sound and Power" unit. It has a "Nudge" setting which may provide a form of pulse power. I have taped it in the OFF setting. It also has a momentum switch which is OFF. Using it this way may be pure DC. I get no motor chatter or noise and running is smooth. And I do have, well, sound and power. And the chuff sound is actually better than any sound decoder that I have. Wired it to stereo speakers and I can rattle the windows if I choose, but I don't, just enough volume to please and not have silent running. I would like a sound decoder in the GS-4 but that may be in the distant future. Ben
I've been running mine on code 55 without any real problems. I did have to "straighten" a curve because the lead driver would derail on it after going through a switch, but it was easily solved. My lead truck has a spring, but it is very weak so I don't think it offers alot of down pressure and therefore no derailment issues. I did have to re-guage my front driver as well, it was slightly under guage. Here is a nice pic next to my other skyline casted locos (repost from SP moment). I'll probably call my LHS today and reserve a few more since I havn't had any issues with mine. I can't wait for Kato to get their spare parts listing up, I need some numberboards for these other two locos since they have the older style.
Pure DC SP Steam, That's an awesome picture of your three GS type locomotives. Wow! Ben and all tuned in, I may have missed the intent of the comments regarding Pure DC. I don't see a need for pure DC and I will explain. Disclaimer...of course. To get pure DC you would need to run your power supply through a car battery. Not to many years back Model Railroader put out a "How To" article with regard to "Pure DC". DC is in essence half the wave of AC and some elements of AC remain in our DC half wave rectifiers. The article went on to describe you could hook up a car battery and get pure DC. Sorry, that's been to long ago to remember specifics and you aren't likely to find me doing such...today. However, it you are in a need to know I will be more then happy to call two well qualified experts on the subject, my friends the electricians. No problem-o and they are usually....more then happy to share their knowledge on the subject. I believe the problem with the GS4 is a intermittent short. I think identified here with the drivers somehow touching the frame of the locomotive, in short intervals. I will put in a call to my electrician friend and run this by him. Perhaps more to come later. Have fun!
Rick, I think the question is does pulse power cause the GS-4 to chatter vs normal DC from a power pack. So far I have found that the pulse coming from an MRC 220 causes this to occur but running the loco from a non featured power pack products no chatter. Vince
Reading the above comments about buzzing and pulse power has me wondering if this is why some DC locos work better than others at address zero on DCC systems that support the use of this address for a DC locomotive. It's my understanding that the controller/booster varies the width of "zero" pulses to vary the RMS power to the rails, per NMRA standards. I don't think I'll check it with my GS-4. Oh, Vince, thanks for sending me one of the good GS-4s!
thank you, I'll check it out! As for DC power pack. I have two a 14 year old MRC TECH II 2800 dual power (dual throttles). they might automatically pulse at low throttle??? but no switches for pulse or momentum. I beleive this pack was just two if the low end 1400 stripped down packs in one case. I do not think this noise would be from the transformer/power pack, as I have MANY MANY MANY locos in N, HO & On30 and none of the others have done this. but who knows. it sounds more like a mechanical gear sound to me. I did notice, with the shell off, the noise is quieter. so the shell must be acting as an enclosure to increase the noise. if you do not think you are getting noise, test your loco by: 1) make sure you have at least 10 cars, but try adding about 20, then 2) set the throttle to about 30-40mph, then 3) run it up an incline of about a 2% grade. if you do not hear a very pronounced grinding like chatter noise then you are free and clear. but if you are running just the loco or even the loco & the basic 10 car set on level track, you might not notice the noise. it is only there on accelleration in that case for a split second. If you want to try a more pure DC source. try a standard 9 volt battery. - actually, 9 volts is probably closer to full throttle, so maybe three 1.5v AA batteries in series together to give you 4.5 volts. - should be pretty close to about 30mph on the throttle. if not add anohter AA batt for 6volts. fresh AA batteries will be closer to 1.5v each, old ones might be 1.2 or even 1 volt or less. an older 9 volt battery might be great as it's volltage would be lower. keep those old ones you pull out of smoke detectors, etc for test running trains. That is a tip for test running locos at trainshows/sales. I always bring about 2 Kato long straight tracs adn two 12" curves and a 9 volt battery. put the track together, put loco on track, apply the 9 volt battery to the rails somewhere (usually an end works best) and watch the loco move., to run the loco the other direction, flip the 9 volt battery around (swapping the battery tabs/rails).
Chattering noise - pulsee power or motor vibration? Nice work, Ryan and Vince! It's MON morning, and by my count, we have 2 credible explanations for the forward direction chatter in the GS-4: (1) power source - using a power pack with pulse or momentum features vsrsus '100% pure' DC and (2) mechanical vibration - motor vibrating against the left frame. After a lot of testing, Vince made the chattering go away by substituting a newer, 'pure DC' pack. On the other hand, Ryan made the noise go away by buffering with a piece of tape. Which is causing the noise? Sounds like both. I just turned mine on the turntable to see if the 'forward noise' would become 'reverse noise.' It did not - it remains a forward noise regargless of loco direction. BUT there's a definite difference with power source - my noise ALMOST goes away when I toggle from my old Troller Auto Pulse Momentum 2.5 to my newer (but otherwise troublesome) MRC Tech 4.350. I get just the slightest chatter using the MRC. Whatta we do now? I just had a very nice response from Kato - I really like those people. But before I return my unit for replacement (since it otherwise operates perfectly - knock on wood...), I'm going to watch your posts for a day or 2. There may be more to learn about the chatter. I'm electronically challenged. I - like Ryan - am going to ask your recommendations for a no-pulse, no-momentum "pure DC" pack. Regardless of primary cause and how my other locos run fine with my Troller, there's no question that the GS-4 doesn't like pulse power. What none-pulse pack do you like? Scott PS: It sounds like you're close to a solution with the pilot truck derailing. Please keep talking about throwing traction tires - we need to understand how big a problem this might be. My best locos are 2 second-hand ConCor(Kato) Hudsons from the 1970s. They are flawless. I believe Kato can put the same performance into our GS-4s.
Pulse Power or Momentum...Not The Same TrainGuy, Thanks, Now I have a better understanding. To Vince, Kozmo, Ryan and "All" tuned in, And Here's WHY! But first a question? Is the MRC 220 a transistorized throttle? "Momentum" and "Pulse" are not the same thing. Me thinks... sometimes... we confuse the two as being one and the same and they aren't. "Built-in", may need a definition here as well. "Built-in", as you don't control it the brains of the transformer does that for you. Is that what I'm hearing here? If so, read on. A look at the past. Most of your older, two throttle power packs didn't have "Pulse" power as an option, built into them. "Pulse" power could only be purchased with a single throttle power pack activated by a simple on and off switch. During this era, two throttle power packs were delivered as standard DC. Todays, throttles or power packs use a transistorized throttle with a type of highly refined DC built into them, giving us as close to true DC, as you can get. This changed the need for pulse power, as a transistorized throttle put's out a highly refined wave... at slower speeds. Where as pulse was a rather abrupt signal (almost mechanical) and you could see it jerking the engine forward at slow speeds. It's as though a pulse signal is being sent out at full throttle, intermittently........ to push the locomotive along. Some reported that the pulse power option burned up the electric motors and that can't be a good thing. What a difference it made....when power packs changed from wire wound rheostat's to transistorized throttles. The overall performance improved. Realisitic...slow starts, smooth operation and great station stops. Eventually "Momentum" and "Brake" enhanced the performance package, allowing us to operate older non-flywheel types of locomotives with almost the same precision as some of our better... fly wheel equipped locos. But then, you'd of had to of been there, to appreciate my thoughts shared. Some transistorized throttles provided a "Pulse Power" feature but not as a built in. The pulse power had to be activated by a on and off switch. Although they performed significantly better the jerkiness could still be noted. With regards to fly wheeled locos, the exception being, in some cases because of the way locomotives were geared, flywheels added little to realistic operation. Today, that's all changed and flywheels do make a difference. Yes, I prefer to buy locomotives with the flywheel's as part of the drive train. No pun intended but I like it. To summarize: Pulse power is pretty much a thing of the past unless you happen to own and operate many of the early (HO pre 70's...well... not sure of the cut off date here) types of locomotives. And that has more to do with the type of electric motors used at that time. Pulse power was a disaster with N scale of no value, whatsomeever! So, if you are still operating with a type of transformer that has the "Pulse Power" option...I suggest...you dispose of it. I do hope that helps. And, I hope that makes sense. Well, that's my last two cents and yes, now I'm broke! Grin! Have fun! After thought and disclaimer: MRC may have experimented with built in "Pulse" but I don't recall seeing or purchasing any of these. Most of us, at the time, wanted it as a feature we could turn off and on...at will. Other providers may have done so but I doubt it. I don't recall any of these types of "Pulse built-in's" being featured in the Model Railroader.
IT IS THE POWER PACK CAUSING THE CHATTER NOISE! I have two MRC Tech II Dual power 2800 packs. both cause the chatter noise as I have said especially under heavier loads and going up inclides at slower/middle speeds. high speeds (70-100) no noise at all. I just used a few 9 volt batteries. a fresh one, and a couple older ones. (the older/more worn down makes the loco run slower than a new one.) Running the same loco and cars up an incline would lcasue a lot of noise from 20-55mph (throttle setting) using the DC MRC Tech II Dual power 2800 packs. using any of the 9 volt batteries = NO NOISE AT ALL! so, it is my power pack! My theory: Might be the motor being close enough to intermittently touch the chassis or so close, but not actually touching that under heavier loads were more current is needed the power is jumping/arcing? causing the noise??? but then why not with a battery. or maybe it is the motor rocking (seems to be spring loaded mounted some how) so it is touching the frame under heavier loads as it is rocking. I'll try the masking tape, actually maybe electric tape to insulate the motor as someone discribed. as for traction tires. it threw one, once. I put it back on and been fine since. but only have run it about 20 minutes since re-installing it. the lights are still intermittent. but that I know I can fix. it is probably just those damn copper contacts not making good contact with the frame. they seem kinda loose.
I've been running my GS-4 with a controlmaster 20 with the nudge on and have not noticed any noise from mine, I'll have to check on my cab 2 as it is an MRC tech controller. There is an occasional click from the valve gear at low speeds, but it is intermittent. I'll also have to add some more cars as I havn't pushed the loco's tractive limits yet.
The plot thickens! Now I have a total of 19 cars (9 con-cor Ca Zephyr passenger cars & 7 Athearn milk cars plus some Atlas Reefers) and up a 2% incline with that load using only the 9 volt batteries, I do get some chatter sound again. it is much worse with the MRC Tech II dual power 2800 power pack, but still there with the 9 volt batteries and the power pack disconnected. just not as much, not as loud as youing the power pack. so next up will be trying to use the tape method someone mentioned earlier.
How/where are you connecting the 9v battery? I wonder if Kato people are lurking while you guys do their trouble-shooting for them.
Your transformer is causing the noise? Kozmo, and of course all tuned in. A 9 volt battery is pure DC. Your throttle I believe is transistorized...right? The noise in your new GS4 only occurs when you are operating with the transformer but not with the 9 volt battery. Hummm? Ok...So, it does make some noise but not as much when you use the battery. Your transformer is more about amperage then it is voltage. A 9 volt battery doesn't deliver 1 amp. Therefore, not enough punch to make as much noise. I would be looking to see how the motor is seated. It is possible it's vibrating, also check to see if it is isolated from the frame so you aren't shorting out. A humm could be the motor trying to go forward and backward at the same time. It's possible a intermittent short would cause this kind of action in the motor and the resulting humming noise. Just thinking out loud...as I usually do. I backed up here and re-read your previous posts and something begin to click and leak out of my memory bank. History but what the heck. And, I don't think it applies here but it might. I was working at a LHS when the first DCC locomotive arrived. We could not run it on standard DC as it would hum and make all kinds of racket. Later the same company that made these loco's made a change and we were finally able to operate the loco's on DCC (a new and earlier version) and standard DC. It was shorting out. It's not likely this old flaw has come back to haunt us...but I'm wondering. Naw...I don't think so. But then...it could. Now I'm in debt as you just got another two cents worth. Sheeesh! I'm going to have to borrow from China. Grin!
I got my GS-4 just over a week ago. I don't have a layout built yet, but am collecting rolling stock of all kinds. I put together a double track oval with Unitrack including the double crossover. I had a couple of derailments initially, but after that it ran flawlessly for about minutes. It would run around the outer oval, crossover ot the inner oval, around, and cross back over to the outer oval. I later changed and put in two turnouts (#6), and agqain it ran flawlessly. I should add that it had no l slow speed however. I would crack the DC control to about 5 (out of 100), and it took off running like a scalded dog. Adding ten Daylight cars slowed it down a little bit, but I never cranked it past 5 for fear it would derail and fall to the floor. I ran my new BigBoy and year old Challenger on the same layout and they behaved quite normally. Of course they have a vastly different control system, but the powerpack throttle could be set to 60 or so, and the hand control then used to adjust speed up or down. Finally, I ran an Athearn DRGW old time 2-8-0 and it jumped and derailed occasionally at the frog of the #6 turnouts. I didn't check the pilot wheels closely, but the flanges may be a little large and the frog appears to be slightly shallow.
Just to clairify, not at all a hum. more of chatter, or like plastic gears binding than a hum. I just set the battery (upsside down) on the rails. make sure to disconnect the wires to the power pack first.
I haven't had any of these problems, but I had a thought. Could the sound be the result of the side-rod driven drivers pushing back on the geared driver? I will be running mine more at my club later this week so we'll see what happens. Adam
Me thinks "You Got It" Kozmo, Now I have a better understanding. Question, when you hear the noise is the locomotive at a stand still or moving down the track? If moving, is it jerking or halting? Give this a thought. If the motor is attempting to go forward and backward wouldn't the plastic gears be moving in sync? Therefore the base cause of the chatter and hummming. That's right it's not humming just chattering. How cold do you keep your train room? It sounds like the poor thing is shivering. Just had to throw that in here! Unless the GS4 came with a reversing solenoid or a type of relay similar to Lionel or American Flyer's locomotives...of times past. What would be making the noise? Oops no humm...sorry about that...just "Chatter". Gear noise or chatter could be out of sync gears or one that has come loose. You can check for this but I don't believe this is the problem. Me thinks you "Got it", or was that someone else? By isolating the drivers so they don't touch the frame. Eliminating the intermittent short. Adam/Steam Donkey, made an excellent suggestion. You might want to check and see if the siderods are out of quartering. Let us know how that works. Otherwise I give up! Hey, I tried.
