Objections - Complexity of DCC

Good explanation, Inobu, and no, I don't think anyone should throw rocks at you.

I know not everyone likes DCC. That's fine. What Inobu just described is more advanced than a lot of people go. A lot of people just dial up the loco address, which many people make the same as the loco number, and then go.

There are other ways of controlling locomotives, including DC and radio control with on-board power. Some people like complex switching or operations, others like running their trains for railfanning, occasionally you see someone doing something akin to a slot-car kind of race.

I don't know why DCC threads tend to attract the naysayer crowd. You don't see people joining a thread in, say, a prototype railroad forum just to talk about how much they dislike that particular road. Those who are not particularly enthralled with DCC may consider starting their own threads about their own chosen method of controlling their trains, whether it be DC, live steam with radio control, or a 9 volt battery held upside down on the rails.

Now, back to our program.

Adam

 

I didnt know that was the case, however Im sure they all mean well, and constructive criticism is just that, constructive
One should consider why this ios the case with DCC, Im sure I know the answer already.

 

It's because some people have no manners.

On with the subject.

 

"........a 9 volt battery held upside down on the rails." That is funny!!!!!

I'm guessing that the variety of dead batteries placed on the rail can give the 128 step control.

Inobu

 

I think youre reading too far into it. What I meant when I said I know what the answer is already it is is simply its complexity. Nothing more. If that is considered rude I guess I must apologise.

 

I think a lot of this falls into the category of "just because it's possible doesn't meant you have to do it".

DCC is as simple or as complex as you want to make it. A number of the examples given proport to illustrate the complexity of DCC, but in reality only illustrate the complexity of the particular feature (which likely isn't even available or possible with DC operation), and using a primitive user interface at that.

If all of the engineering parameters that affect the performance of your car were made available, and furthermore, they had to be set up using knife switches, we'd all go back to horses (but then there's dietary and medical complexities to be dealt with).

Maybe we should all just walk.

 

Doug,

Your comment "DCC is as simple or as complex as you want to make it." really solidifies the OP's point with the final caveat of

"and creating flowcharts can simplify it for all users."


"I have learned that it is better to point the horse in the direction of water than to lead him there, it saves you both a lot of heartache. Inobu"

 

Are my manners showing? Not bad manners, just putting it out there to see what comes back.err:

With regard to the comments of being "Rude" and "Naysayers":
First, what I see going on here is a open discussion. This alone, invites the many of aspects of group dynamics and goes in the direction the discussion takes it. I'm not reading where anyone is being rude or naysaying DCC. Just identifying the complexities and looking for ways to resolve said issues.

My original post here was not a naysayer excuse to post an objection. Rather to appeal to the guru's of DCC to give us a simple flow chart. An example of how they set-up their CV's. So far that hasn't happened here. No one has provided a flow chart.

Although, private P.M.'s and phone calls have brought in some real help.

There are three of us on this mountain top that have DCC and possibly others here we haven't run into. We are sold on the idea and are determined to excel at it. However, the reams of reading material and hours of discussion here on TrainBoard, although helpful, isn't getting us from complicated to simple and user friendly.

I will be meeting with several others at the train show in Ontario, CA. A informal group with no real appointment...just when we all get there. Here we hope to hammer out some of the difficulties. John, will bring his lap top so we can see the computer program and somehow... I see this as the answer.

Arnie's in West Minster is putting on a DCC clinic. Not sure why they choose this weekend but for those with similar concerns and at the bottom of the learning curve as am I. This may be the place to be.

I've identified the problem: It's not simple or user friendly. I've made an appeal to make it simple and user friendly. For one, take the mathematics out of it. Flow charts would help and etc..

I didn't make DCC complicated and I didn't write reams of paper work to explain it. All I need is a simple and easy to understand way and means to enter my CV's. It has little to do with me or how complicated or simple I make it.

I appreciate everyone's response and offerings of help.

Thank-you!

Inobu,

I think you summed it up perfectly. See post above.

When one needs help, it would be foolish not to ask for it.

First tame down the horse, gain it's trust and respect, then ride it.

 

Rick,

I am talking about people who interrupt DCC threads in progress telling others that DCC is bad or that they hate DCC or that we should all be using something else. I am not talking about you.

Best,
Adam

 

Adam,

Thanks for the response. I can be a bad boy at times.

I may have missed the nay saying ...if so, thanks for catching it and calling it. I do agree with you regarding the naysayers. I do approach all I do Red over Yellow. This isn't about bashing DCC but understanding it. I tend to stop to check it out, cautiously learn all I can then implement and highball on through. Stop, look and listen. If you get my drift.

DCC on the other hand has real issues. For one, I'm anxious to get past this difficult learning curve and get operating. Somehow, someway, this had got to be made easy. As of yet, I haven't been able to wrap my mind around it.

DCC is here to stay on my layout but DAM IT, WE GOT's TO MAKE THIS SIMPLE AND USER FRIENDLY. mad:

 

Rick,

If it is of any help, this is what I did, and I am no DCC guru.

I learned how to hook up my system, and hooked it up. You're already there.

I learned how to hook up a programming track that was isolated from the layout.

I learned how to program a loco from standard address '03' to another address on the programming track.

I learned how to select that loco on the main line and then run it.


The only way I could get it going was to ignore all but the quick-start instructions and start playing with it. I have Digitrax, and most of the documentation that comes with a Zephyr is reference material, meaning that a normal user should use the reference material only to refer to specifics for what they want to accomplish and not try to "take it all in" or memorize it. A good example of this is CV29.

I know how to hexadecimal and binary conversions, but I don't bother with DCC. The interfaces we have now (Digitrax in my case and I think it was MRC in your case) do that automatically.

I bit off the DCC learning curve in chunks. Most of the CVs then are for customizing settings, and a lot of users ignore most of them because the stock values are just fine for their purposes.


Adam

 

My point exactly!If you want to know everything (even that which you do not need), read everything! Otherwise, go with the "Quick Start" section, then venture off into the unknown only as your needs and interests dictate.

You don't need to be an expert in World Geography to find your way to Hoboken.

 

I think I've commented on this before. Rick, you're right that the problem with DCC right now is that the user interface is neither easy nor user friendly.

Flow charts or instructions on how to set up CVs are only a short term solution to the problem, in my mind. Yes, a flow chart or other better documentation would help folks right now get better use of the current generation of product with the current commonly available interface (throttles with limited displays). And I think, if I'm not mistaken, this is largely what you're getting at, Rick - whether we can put together better, easier documentation for the current crop of product.

To that extent, by all means, let's build some flowcharts and rewrite some documentation!! What are we waiting for?

I'm not sure, though, that this wouldn't be somewhat misdirected in that it would either end up being wasted work, or worse, delay the long term solution even further.

The long term solution is already here, or very close, in computer based packages like DecoderPro and its inevitable successors.

Computers these days are as successful as they are because they have an enormous amount of horsepower, and they spend a ridiculous amount of that horsepower generating a simple, human-friendly interface to the tasks they are handling under the covers.

DCC throttles, while quite powerful, are severely lacking (relatively speaking) in their user interface ability. DecoderPro fixes that by using the PC's user interface capabilities to insulate the user from the very flowcharts and CV maps we're talking about. If we want to turn on or adjust some feature, it should be as easy as clicking a check box and moving a slider, while under the covers all the calculations are done and all the right CVs are set without the user even knowing or caring what the CVs are.

We deal directly in CVs today mostly because the throttles don't have the UI capability to hide the CVs from us, not because there's any inherent reason for the end user to understand CVs to get the job done.

In time (hopefully SHORT time), the throttle interfaces themselves will get fancier, and some of this point-and-click adjustment ability will be doable in a handheld throttle. It already is, to some extent, with things like iRoc and/or WiThrottle on the iPhone.

The very fact that NONE of the DCC vendors have a built in USB interface in their controllers, but rather require you to spend an additional $50-$150 to get that ability tells me that they're not thinking much along the lines of user interface. For cost reasons, I don't have much direct experience with DCC, but just looking at their handhelds reminds me WAY too much of old VCR remotes. Too many function-specific buttons. Not enough thought put to what users typically do with the trains, or flow of operations. Granted, some look better than others, but they have a long way to go, and we need to be demanding it of them, because the usability aspect has a huge effect on the perception and adoption of the system as a whole.

The thing is, and this is where I get back to the "wasted work" or "impediment" thing, these advancements are largely demand driven. As long as we the user community are content to use the given interface, and "fix" the complexity problems with our own information, the DCC vendors have that much less incentive to advance the state of the art and provide a better interface. It's a small drag, to be sure, but just like a single stuck brake on a train, it *is* a drag.

Maybe I should design my own DCC box...

 

TwinDad,

For a lot of the reasons you have stated, I have been working on steering my clubmates to the following:

1) Don't worry about the command station. We have a couple guys who are all over that, and if you have a major failure here's a way to power everything down and power everything back up again.

2) Use DecoderPro to program your locomotives. It's way more intuitive to your average user who is used to filling out forms on, say, a web page, than working on key sequences on a throttle.

3) Use a UT-4 (we're Digitrax) for running, as it is the best balance of simplicity and functionality for most of our regular users.

4) Buy decoder equipped locos or have decoders put in by installers. I have installed a fairly large number of member's decoders, but I stay away from doing hard-wired installations for others.


Interfaces are getting better...slowly. In Digitrax, the DT-400/402 series throttles are much easier to use for programming than the earlier DT-100 and -300 throttles. I don't have any direct experience with MRC. NCE is reputed to be very intuitive, and if that is true it's likely a good choice for those without a nearby network of experts, clubmates, gurus, and others.


Most of that really techie stuff is not necessary for average use. It's sort of like computer use. Most of use use the application that Microsoft or some other company has produced, we don't try to tweak it or re-program it to fit our own preferences.

 

I'm asking myself, why are you trying to sell trucks in Holmes County, Ohio?


I quit! (with a smile)

Inobu

 

OK, I admit I had to look up Holmes County in Wikipedia to get this. But it's funny!

 

Now we are talking.

Adam, and of course all tuned in here. This isn't a P.M..

I have it all wired and tied in via DPDT switches. I know someone who is still grasping at straws to understand how DPDT works. I kinda feel sorry for him. Here we are trying to grasp DCC. Moving way beyond the simple and perhaps complex wiring. Although, if all you do is use DCC, you have the simplest wiring to worry about. You can't make it simpler.

So, we've nailed down wiring it in, turning the on switch to on (what else?). Mastered addressing the locomotive decoder and now it comes to run time. I need to set-up my CV's, so I can control the amount of Momentum, dwell time, light from dim to bright, bell's and whistles (although I don't have sound yet).

I have examples of a type of flow chart provided in the MRC packaging. I have no idea what or why........................ as there's no explanation.

Adam, You are so right it is the time I take to play with it, go back to CV 30 and enter 2 to get back to default. Back to operating on the default address of 0003 Then I start all over with the CV's just to see what they do. So far, (On a friends layout in HO scale, his GP9) I have the locomotive doing back flips as it goes from forward to reverse. If I could just see how someone else set up the CV's then I would have a good idea on how to set-up mine. With regard to my one locomotive...when I hit the red stop button....it finally comes to a halt, half way around the upper loop.

A number of you have shared how you set-up your CV's, here in this thread. Greatly appreciated. I've tried some your examples.

The problem is I need to read the one DCC locomotive I own, as it appears to be locked up. Terry, the previous owner did confirm it is locked up. I need to learn how to unlock it. For whatever reasons, my MRC Prodigy, won't read it. It indicates it's reading and I'm thinking... it's the next step... the one I don't know how to do.

Twindad, I couldn't agree more. And thanks for seeing my point.

DStuard, As always I look forward to reading your input.

Inobu, Don't give up on us here. I didn't read any flat line...ahh...non train related.
The truck thing was funny.

What I want are examples of how each of you set-up your CV's with a brief description on how your locomotive performs. Does that simplify my original question?

The rest of my day is once again busy. I will get back to you after the Train Show, Saturday.

I will share with you what I learn...but only in hopes it can help someone else.


Thanks again for sharing.

 

I think Adam was talking about me, except at no stage did I say I HATE DCC. I like digital trains and digital slot cars. Ive had analogue slots and trains through my childhood, have recently revisted slots (now digital) and now wish to revisit trains (now digital) . I was told this forum is the most informative and friendly, thats why Im here and no where else.
And yes I am suggesting something else, in my Bluetooth System from Oz thread. Its a possible alternative. Id like to develop a system that is better, cheaper, simpler. Isnt that a good thing?

Digital trains will go totally wireless and simpler systems will come along, its a natural progression, and for good reason. A fair proportion of the guys in this thread have said it is indeed complex, please listen and help us.

Rick Field
Australia

 

Rick,

This is where people ask you who made the decoder. The reason is while the basic ser of CVs are standardized and method by which decoders get their orders from your DCC system have been standardized, the way in which it might get locked are not.

With my BLI locomotives, I set CV 8 to 8 to get the decoder to reset.

There is the distinct possibility that the magic smoke came out of the decoder at some point. If it is totally locked up that may be just it. If we lived anywhere closer I'd ask you to bring it over and we'd throw it on a test track with DecoderPro running and (hopefully) figure it out.

Is there a way you could pop the top off that loco and get some sort of identifying mark from that decoder, or take a really good picture of it? Maybe we could workshop it through this forum topic and get it going again for you.



I don't know about MRC, but with my Digitrax Zephyr I sometimes have to put a resistor across the rails to get enough "oomph" to program a decoder. Also, keep in mind that not all decoders have CV readback, meaning you can't read the CVs off them but only write them. This is maddening, I know. My Challenger is this way.

If you can get us the model of that decoder, or at least some series of numbers or letters or whatever that can help us identify it, we might be able to look up the manual for that decoder on the internet.

Good luck,
Adam