N scale D&RGW Secret Places Sub layout progress

Construction to begin in July.......
I should build another mockup....
I need to first unpack everything, and find all my tools....

 

Hemi:
Just found this thread and your track plan and don't know if you have seen my comment in another thread about running spirals counterclockwise to put right side running trains on the outside of multiply-tracked helixes instead of the inside track because the grade per loop is a little less on the outside (larger radius) track than on the inside track. (Whew! That was a long sentence...hope it made sense!).
With a 2% maximum grade in your helix you would need 800 inches (66') to rise 16". On the face of it, this looks like great potential staging. The two major downsides to staging in the helix are:
1. cars roll when parked on a slope. Putting something non-metallic across the tracks can work as a brake, but you would need a subtle touch on the throttle to back in and connect to the cut of cars without knocking them off the track.
2. even if trains are staged with engines attached (eliminating a need for braking cars), you'd still have to crawl into the helix twice for every train you ran, once at the beginning and a 2nd at the end of the run. NOT FUN. I'd recommend against staging in the helix.
As an alternative, could you use a single spiral helix for the mainline return loop, but also to get to staging at a level that is lower than the main layout? Staging could go around the outside edge of the layout with staging fascia positioned directly under fascia from the main part of the layout--hopefully separated by 10 inches of working space.

Or, if you can't get enough drop from the layout to the staging to work on the staging tracks conveniently when they are positioned under the layout, run them so staging is positioned around the outside edge of the layout and the scenic-ed portion of the layout would start one wedding cake tier up (about 6 inches?). By having the main layout fascia match colors with the staging fascia, you would visually set off the staging tracks from the layout tracks, but the staging would be completely accessible (and visible at all times). The staging fascia would drop down from the front of the staging level and the layout fascia would rise up from the back of the staging level.

I went around my layout to see if I could find examples of how staging tracks might look if they were positioned under or positioned outside of the scenic-ed portion of the layout.


In front of the Bartonville Helix, the 3 tracks on the (48" high) lower level are partially underneath the 6" wide fascia from the 65" high upper level. Access is great, but the upper deck is already 17 inches above the lower and I think you are looking for more helix above that level to handle trains returning from their climb.


The Peoria Helix has several tracks that enter/leave the helix besides at the very top or bottom. The bottom track at 48" goes into the helix. The next level with the tank car is at 52" and goes past the helix without entering it. The track by the red lit signal is at 60", and the top level is at 65".

By comparing the lower and 2nd (tank car) levels, you can get an idea of what wedding cake-like tiered staging would look like with a 4 inch separation from the scenic-ed layout area and the staging. Looking at the difference between the tank car track at 52" and the signalled tracks at 60", you can see what an 8 inch separation would look like.


The Morton picture shows tracks and scenery at 52.5" and a single track running to a staging yard at 48". The upper level deck over Morton is at 65", which means there is less separation between the Morton tracks/structures and the underside of the upper level benchwork and fluorescent lighting--about 5 inches. This is workable if you have to do something on that level, but often inconvenient.

Frankly, I'd also recommend against staging underneath unless you can get at least 10 inches clearance between the railhead and the underside of the upper level when working 6" in from the fascia. There are bound to be times you want to 0-5-0 a car or loco in or out of staging, resolder a joiner or reposition track, read reporting marks on a car on the back track, or rerail or couple/uncouple a car; the 10" clearance will make the staging much more user friendly.

Making staging completely visible avoids the clearance issue, but introduces another...will operators be distracted by staging just off the edge of a layout? I'd argue that they would not, because they already routinely ignore fascia mounted control panels, car card boxes, toggles and levers for turnouts, etc. My guess is that the benefits of visible staging far outweigh any liabilities.

Your thoughts and reactions?
Dave H.

 

Wow, Dave, I was not prepared for that!
I had already decided against helix staging, however, your outer facia staging idea seems sound.. I want to stage at least 4, 8' long trains--Facia staging would really put a squeeze on room, as well as reaches.. The benchwork will be 18" deep, and adding another foot to that, for a few inches on both sides, and my aisles diminish. I have a large basement, but it is not all slated for a model RR!

 

I'll welcome any willing assistance!
I built a workbench area last night--gives a place to work and build framework. I also built it to the height of my miter saw--well, it was, till I moved each along the wall as planned--the floor slopes down, and throws everything off...
The layout will certainly need leg leveling feet!!

 

Carriage bolts to the rescue! At worst, cut new legs for the benchwork most adversely affected by the sloping.

 

Or buy LONG carriage bolts!

I plan on buying plywood next paycheck--3/4" 5-ply pine--construction to commence soon!!

 

I just re-read Dave's post, and another idea hit me--instead of building staging under the layout, why not do like ppuinn and build a staging area, although small, into the facia? Maybe 5-6" deep, 6" tall, would allow 2-3 tracks all the way around, eliminating reaching under the layout for trains...
Don't mind the exaggeration of size, the real layout will not be that big, just for illustration only..
Will it work?

 

good point..

Close to it... I will get soem lexan or plexiglass for that. The tracklevel will be 48"-54" above the floor.

 

After a particularly long PM exchange (I've never hit the 7500-character limit on a PM before!) with ppuinn, I have obviously ruled out helix staging. Under layout staging is out too. Off-layout staging is likely out, since I want the layout to be self-sufficient. If I move from my big basement to a house with no basement, I'll put the layout in a spare bedroom. Having staging integrated helps eliminate finding space for staging. I could build staging outside the layout on a shelf, but that would constrict future layout aisles. I have a big basement now, and staging off the layout is not a problem, but if I move to a smaller house, Where will I then put staging?

I have thought about making the staging area 6" deep, and 8" tall, built into the fascia, dunno how well that will work. I don't plan on Tortise turnout actuation now, but I don't want to limit myself from it in the future. With space for those, I'd need 6" from the bottom of the roadbed. That puts staging 14" below lowest modeled track level. Tunnel 1 is planned to be 50" from the floor. That puts fascia staging at 36-38" from the floor. Within reach of toddler fingers.......

What are your thoughts? Building fascia staging accomplishes a few goals:

1. Staging integrated with layout
2. Keeping staging from being built under layout or in helix--accessibility issues
3. Leaving current aisles unrestricted

I can live with low staging area, but the helix will be massive to cover the 13-15" from Tunnel 19 to Tunnel 1 levels, and add 14" to that figure to reach staging. Reaching a derailment in the helix will require ducking under, but only infrequently. The low clearance of about 36" is not too bad on hands & knees in theory, but seems bad for business...

What are your thoughts??

 

Hemi:
What do you think of this?


I’ve put 3-track visible staging up to the outside edge of an 8x8 footprint. The staging turnouts across the top of the layout could be moved to the right another 3 feet if you wanted (sort of centered in the staging area at the top of the layout as they come off the track from the helix). I didn’t put any other turnouts in staging (except at the other end of the 3 tracks where they exit staging), because I wanted to suggest you consider sequential staging: putting 2 or 3 trains on each staging track, one after the other. If you put in separate sidings for each train, you eat up another foot of staging for each turnout you add. Even with sequential staging, instead of the 9 trains I originally thought could be staged, I think you’ll have to settle for 6 or 7, and maybe even less if you run 10 foot long trains. I assumed the 3 staging tracks were on 1.5 inch centers. You could put them on 1.25 inch centers and get 4 in the same space if you are willing to run closer to the outside fascia (which I see you plan to have rise a little higher than the staging tracks to provide protection) and closer to the fascia that rises from the back of the staging level to the front/outside edge of the rest of the layout.

There is a maximum 2% grade in the helix and through all the tunnels (admittedly less than your 2.5% discussed in previous postings). Staging is at 0 inches (which I assume you will ultimately set at 48 or 51 inches); Plain is at 3 inches; and Crescent is at 9 inches. This is a shorter overall profile that you had previously discussed, but I selected the lower grade (and thus lower profile) to permit longer trains…2.5% around curves is likely to limit train length too drastically unless your locos are super pullers and your cars are weighted at less than NMRA standards.

I made Plain and Crescent level so you could spot cars without concerns for them rolling.

The helix is a genuine spiral helix of 3.5 loops…the radius continually increases from 19.5 inches at the bottom of the first loop to 24.75 at the end of the top (fourth) loop. The spiral helix looks like a large bowl (as opposed to the typical helix with the same radius throughout and each loop stacked directly over the one below which looks like a cylinder). The spiral helix offers complete access to all track when you stand inside the bowl of the helix and is dramatically easier to maintain, repair, or replace.


This is a pic of one of the 4 helixes on my layout. (The cardboard and foam at the front of the layout are for a mock-up of a highway bridge over the tracks.) Your helix has about half as many loops because it rises about half the distance.

Construction of a spiral helix is relatively simple—essentially you will be doing a cookie cutter design for a 450 inch long curving ramp. You’ll be able to use a single 4x4 sheet of homasote laminated to a 1/2 inch OSB panel (wafer board/chip board) for your subroadbed, if you like. (On another layout I used plywood instead of OSB panel, but made the mistake of going cheap so it separated a lot. I also tried homasote alone for the subroadbed of another helix on my present layout and had to double the number of supports I needed to prevent sagging.) Supports are made of OSB panel and are positioned at the 8 points of the compass. (I can give you some simple formulas for easily calculating how high to cut each tier supporting each loop.) The 8 supports are set on a 4x4 OSB panel with an 18 inch radius hole cut out of the center for access to the inside of the helix. I use L-girder construction for all of my benchwork, but other options are available.
Cookie cut the subroadbed and drop it onto the supports, secure everything with screws and lay your track.

Let me know what you think.

Unfortunately, I’m going out of town for several days and don’t expect to have computer access, but I’ll check in with this thread when I’m back home.
Dave H.
Central Illinois
Modeling the 1970s era Peoria and Pekin Union Railway in N-Scale

 

WOW. Again, many great ideas! With 1.25" staging track centers, I can realistically add 4 tracks, right? Sequential staging is even better! The only reqirement I have is 18" rad min. I'll deal with 15" min in staging/hidden trackage. I plan on running autoracks, and long passenger cars. If I increase benchwork width to 24" that staging idea would be fine. I planned on 18" wide. That will only cut interior access room 1'x4'. This will still allow a 4' square acess area in which to build the helix. At varying radii, too. I guess 17" first level, all the way to 23-24" near the top. If I have to overlap a loop, I will, but only after exhausting all options.

Plain is level in the 12"=1' scale model as well. Cresent is still situated on that grade. Either way is sound. I think I planned Plain on the level in plan A anyways.

Building a helix Dave-style also eliminates joints in the helix roadbed. I planned on gluing track in the helix directly to the helix structure, no cork or other roadbed. Is that a bad idea? Since the helix will be upside-down wedding-cake style, vertical clearance is limited only by the ceiling. All I'd need is a good jiigsaw blade...

The wheels are a-turnin'!
The staging area could become a semi-scenicked siding further along the railroad, such as Cliff, Rollins or Tolland siding.... A basic backdrop painted on the back of the fascia....

Sure the elevations are not as high as I had planned, but that has real potential to work! My challenge will be scenicking it, so one area, say between tunnels 5 and 6, are isolated, and no other track peeks in the picture. This is a railfan layout, I plan to build it as I have raiilfanned it! I plan on taking angles like I shot in real life. I also plan on some new ones to try on the real thing.

Should be a doable challenge!

One last thing--does staging empty to the helix to Tunnel 1/Plain, or does it rise directly to Tunnel 1? I would guess if staging does not re-enter the helix to go to Tunnel 1 that I need to engineer in a way to allow for continuous running without running into staging every lap...

 

You wrote: With 1.25" staging track centers, I can realistically add 4 tracks, right?

Yep, but the finger-space between is a lot less and makes grabbing a car for re-railing is a pain. I'd try to avoid it, if possible (but maybe your fingers are smaller and more agile!)

...The only reqirement I have is 18" rad min.

This plan is drawn with 19" minimum in staging, 19.5" in the helix, and whatever you might choose from Plain to Crescent.


...helix. At varying radii, too. I guess 17" first level, all the way to 23-24" near the top. If I have to overlap a loop, I will, but only after exhausting all options.

If you have your heart set on 24.0" outside edge maximum for the top radius (plan is drawn with 24.75" track center), I'll figure out the bottom minimum radius...probably about 18" or so.

...I planned on gluing track in the helix directly to the helix structure, no cork or other roadbed. Is that a bad idea?

I use Atlas track nails (I think 3/4"; definitely not the 3/8" track spikes) to nail the track directly to the homasote. Gluing makes repair work hard because it is so unforgiving...once it's dried, you have to tear off the top surface of the homasote to adjust the track, leaving a rough surface for your re-positioned track to rest on.

...Since the helix will be upside-down wedding-cake style, ...

FWIW: I've been refering to this type of helix as a spiral helix or genuine spiral helix and I say it's shaped like a bowl. I try to get people to refer to the traditional helix as a stacked helix (because the loops are stacked directly over each other) and describe its shape as a cylinder (so sometimes it's called a cylindrical helix). I use the wedding-cake description to describe a helix with decreasing radii as the spiral climbs. I find myself refering to the "tiers" of a wedding-cake helix instead of the "loops".

... All I'd need is a good jiigsaw blade...

And a mask if you are using homasote!!! This is definitely a job that should be done outside, if at all possible, because the dust generated by a 450 inch cut is horrendous! (You've been warned! ;>D Despite the dust factor, I still think homasote on OSB panel is the way to go...It's getting pricier and harder to find, but can still be ordered.

...The staging area could become a semi-scenicked siding further along the railroad, such as Cliff, Rollins or Tolland siding.... A basic backdrop painted on the back of the fascia....

Yes! I have spots on my layout where I've put the name of the staging area on the fascia, and a picture of a signature building next to the tracks.

...My challenge will be scenicking it...

I've got some ideas on that too. I'll post them sometime next week when I get back from a 4-day weekend vacation.

...One last thing--does staging empty to the helix to Tunnel 1/Plain, or does it rise directly to Tunnel 1?

Arrgh!! Crud! #$^@ %&*(#% How could I have missed the continuous running option!??!!
Sorry, I just lost it for a moment...but I've got it back and will think about our options. Hmm...maybe a turnout at the bottom of the helix that breaks off from the track that goes to staging and sends a track out to connect with the climbing track that rises to Plain. Aaah. That's better! Still doable!
Dave H.

 

Dave, I value your input, and I thank you profusely for your help!
I plan on using 3/4" plywood, since it is stronger and more stable, IMHO, than waferboard (OSB). I also plan on cork roadbed, rather than Homasote. I dunno where to find it, and I have a good stock of cork now. I have to build brand new banchwork, anyways, so I might as well engineer the staging area, helix, and all into the bare frame. The helix, as I picture it, to be portable, will collapse flat, and the support structure will be crated up with the helix in a large, flat crate. The benchwork will be crated face to face, into a large box, using 3/8" ply/OSB to make the crate... It's how I moved my layout from Minot, ND to Cheyenne, WY and it worked great.

 

Plan change?

I was thinking again.. Smell something burning??
The outside staging area would eat a foot from the layout on both sides, so I'd end up with a 7x7' modeled area. With what I have planned, that's just going to be too cramped.
With this in mind, I have a couple Q's:

1. How large is the average other than master bedroom in most US houses?
2. Is 8x10' outta the question?

My last layout room was an 11x12' bedroom. Are most smaller or bigger than this? Is 8x8' pushing it for aisle space?
If 8x8' is going to squeeze aisle space in my next house, 8x10' is nuts...
I need to be able to move it into a smaller house and set it up, and go. I have a large basement now, but I cannot let that get into my head...

 

What's your thoughts on buiding a 9x12' layout, with a lift bridge, and run fom the center, like a pit? 9x12' would be easier to light than 8x8, since all the lights would be unside the 'pit' area. my house has 2 smaller bedrooms, they measure 8'4" x 12', and 13' x 9'.

Will I need access around the outside of the layout?

 

Hemi:
1. What about revising your goal? Can you bring yourself to accurately reproduce 2/3rds of the tunnels instead of all 19...and when you move to a location that has sufficient space, model the remainder? [Keep the staging but sacrifice the modeled area for now.]

2. Or how about (in the currently available space) using Plain as a fiddle yard to set up the trains (no staging on the present layout); but deliberately search for a larger train space when you move (large enough to hold an 8x8 layout AND sufficient staging possibilities). [Keep the modeled area but sacrifice the staging for now.]

3. Or how about putting sequential staging on the 1st and 2nd sides at 0" elevation, and model Plain on the 3rd side at 1" elevation? Have tunnels on the 4th side. This will yield a scenic-ed area of 7.5 by 7.5 feet. [The compromise: sacrifice a little on the modeling aspect and a little on the staging aspect.]
Dave H.
Modeling the 1970s era Peoria and Pekin Union Railway in N-Scale

 

Hemi:
You posted your question about an around-the-room layout while I was composing my previous message about the 8x8 donut with helix and visible staging...

If the 8x8 plan is no longer viable, give us a floor plan for the other 2 rooms and a list of your givens and druthers, at this time. The more clearly you can articulate the various aspects of your overall goal, the easier it will be for you to look at any suggestions and say, " Yes, that moves me closer to my goal." or "No thanks, that doesn't address my goal." If each "No, thanks" is accompanied by a description of what you'd prefer, you'll shape future suggestions to ultimately get you to your goal.
(Hmm... that sure sounded "preach-y". Sorry.)
Dave H.