Wow, I think I can actually build this! I like the longest staging tracks option; sequential staging gives more possibiities for long trains, and more trains.
Hemi: I'm glad you kept me playing with this...I don't know why I didn't see it earlier, but I think you can get: 1. simpler track through the spiral helix--2 turnouts on the helix and one just before leaving the tunnel to Plain 2. greater separation between visible levels--4 inches between staging and Plain, maybe up to 6 between Plain and Crescent 3. even more separation between Plain and Crescent if you optimize/maximize the grade between Plain and Crescent (my previous plan did not push that grade to its maximum) 4. longer mainline, if you are willing to scenic the outside of the helix 5. 16" minimum radius on the first (lowest) quarter loop of the helix, and 21.5" maximum radius on the last (top) quarter loop of the helix 6. 16" minimum radius on the staging turnback loop 7. 19" maximum radius on the (mostly visible??) turnback loop at the halfway point between Plain and Crescent. 8. 24" aisle into the central area of the layout. I'll put together a track plan later tonight, but it will look much like the one I posted before with the modifications mentioned above. I feel like things are really coming together on this plan!!:shade: :teeth: :thumbs_up:
Dave, I'm glad you stuck with me on this! There's no way I would have gotten this far on my own. In fact, I'd still be stuck on the 8x8', trying to integrate staging somehow! Simpler is goooood!! I can live with 16" rad curves in hidden areas, but anything under 15, and I won't be able to run my varnish and autorack trains. The 'South Draw' area at the opposite turnback at 19" rad is tasty, although I may drop to 18" for more scenery around the edge. The increased grade separation is also a plus. I plan to make use of the 2% prototype ruling grade! The only flat area is the central and western section of Plain siding. Scenicking the helix would add a boost to mainline length--I wonder what I would scenic it as? Upper South Boulder Canyon? *Tunnels 24-29* The staging turnback loop at 16" would maximize staging siding length, but I think I would enlarge it a bit to 17" or so, just to minimize derailments. 16" will be cozy for 89' cars, and any sudden train handling moves will... well, you know... I am going to build a trackplan as well, as there are some signature curves I want to integrate as closely as possible. The mainline will just be a series of snaking curves back to back. The only straight sections will be the central portion of Plain, an area between Tunnels 6 and 8, and a very short portion of Crescent. OOH! I'm excited!:w20z6q:
After a quick pen drawing, I have the turnback loop at South Draw the way I want it. The flyover will be, conveniently, at Tunnels 10 and 17; they are 1572' and 1730' respectively, so appropriately long tunnels. Plain and Crescent are plotted to be about 8-10' apiece, and beyond that, I had some more space to add tunnels 19-23. Tunnel 23 is long one at 1553', so the loops can be scenicked as the area in deep South Boulder Canyon, Tunnels 24-29. A couple signature curves like the one leading out of Tunnel 25, and so on; and I can realistically (albeit highly compressed) model SBC the way I remember it. SWEET! Granted, the scenery in the Loops will only be basic, and a few rocks, trees,a nd tunnel portals where I see fit, but it's better than nothing!
Dave, I see I need at least 6 tortises--2 each for each siding on the main, and 2 for the hidden area. I figure on modifying a turnout for 'spring-switch' operation, for the other end of staging at the turnback loop... My Q: Where can I get a 6- or 12-pack of Tortises cheapest?
Hemi: As the old telephone ad said: Let your fingers do the walking--only you can update from dialing/pushing buttons on a telephone to tapping keys on your computer as you surf the Internet. I've done ok at train shows (got a 6-pack in June for $78 plus tax; a few years ago I got a 12-pack for $126 plus tax), but I've also seen vendors at meets asking (and getting) over $100 for a 6-pack. Your local hobby store may place an order for you at a less than MSRP. I suppose it is also possible to contact Circuitron and get your Tortoises directly from the source. Regarding the spring switch...have you seen one working reliably in N-Scale??? I'd guess it could be done, but, for me, I'd want something whose reliability is a little less dependent on wheel flanges and precision weighting of every single car that would pass through that turnout. You'll need to do a balancing act: enough weight in the car so the wheel flanges overcome the spring tension and move the points without the truck being popped off the track, but not so much that the cars can't be pulled around the curves on your 2% grade up the mountainside. Dave H.
Hemi: How do you feel about Caboose Industries' ground throws used in the scenic-ed portions of the layout? I have about 600...all reliable, all decent looking, most installed in less time than it's taking me to compose this lauditory sentence, and all for less than $3 each (if you look carefully and order a dozen at a time). Dave H.
I had a few ground throws on the last layout, and I found them a nuisance. I plan on using the snap action of my Peco insulfrog turnouts. And on the mainline, tortises. As for a spring switch, I only want it in staging, and in a trailing point position. Grant-sar here had a couple in staging, and they worked great! I may take a few pointers from him in how he made them work.
Hemi: Any pics of those spring switches or descriptions of the mechanisms? I'm not converted, yet, but if you've seen some that are indeed reliable, I'd like to learn about how that modeler did it. Dave H.
This is a very old thread. Some of this latest design stuff is really great. Well thought out, you know.
Dave is very much a goldmine of great info! Thanks Dave! This is a old thread, come to think of it...
I've had a few experiences, where the Peco didn't quite hold tight enough. Especially on Electro-Frogs. So if Grant has a few tricks, I'd be interested. Fodder for another thread? Boxcab E50
No electrofrogs here.... I have only insulfrog turnouts in my stash. On a side note, would increasing the module width to 26 or even 28 inches be a problem to reach? I have long arms, so 26" shouldn't be hard; but I don't want to overextend myself (pun shamelessly intended) reach-wise. The extra few inches would serve to increase staging by another track or 2. I don't see a huge need to increase the scenicked potrtion, since that's already 18" wide. Any more, and it'll really eat up scenicking supplies. Any thoughts?
Hemi: Jog my memory...How high did you expect to put railheads in staging, the middle level and the back level. If you follow the plan we most recently discussed with a helix, your highest level track would be 8 to 10 inches above your lowest. Reach, however, is significantly influenced by shelf height...If you start at 36" in staging and go to 46" at Crescent, your ability to reach the back of the shelf will be a lot different than if your railheads go from 42 to 52" or from 48 to 58". Your reach will also be strongly affected by how high the scenery/structures are that you will be reaching over. If track at Plain in the middle of a 26 inch shelf is at 44 inches and Crescent at the back is at 50, I may still be in trouble reaching to the back of the shelf if the mountains/tunnels around Plain top out at 50 or 52". On one area of my layout, I have track running behind removable view blocks at the back of a 32 inch deep shelf with rail heads at 48". With the 2-inch view blocks removed and a little bit of lean, I can reach straight in and comfortably clean the track with a Brightboy. If I move a little to the right, there are some 3 to 5 inch tall buildings in the middle of the layout. When I'm careful to keep my elbow high, I can still clean the track without excessive strain, but I've bumped the taller buildings sometimes…never anything drastic. Another foot to the right, and the buildings are shorter (maybe 1.5 to 2.5 inches), but much closer to the back of the shelf. I have to remove those buildings Every Single Time I clean the track at the back of that part of the shelf because my arms aren't long enough to get my elbow high enough to reach the track running so close behind them. In one of my corners on the 48" high shelf, the track makes a sweeping arc that is 30 to 32 inches from the front of the shelf. Due to a building that hides a permanent support for the upper deck, there is a short section of the curve (about 2-3 feet long) that is best reached by standing on one of the many 12" high benches I walk along when working trains on my top deck (which is at 65"). This reach requires a lean, but the long reach is only held briefly. Since you routinely plan to run trains at the higher elevation, you may want to get a stool or make a bench to bring the railhead at the back of the shelf to a functional level that lets you work more comfortably. (But...fair warning!!!...you'll probably have to get a second one for your wife or kids when they keep borrowing yours. ) Here’s a pic of some of my benches. The benches bring the 65" high upper deck to a functional height of 53", a height I find personally comfortable for running trains and working on the layout. Your preferred height will probably be different than mine. Mock it out so you can test different heights until you find one that works for you. Be sure to consider the interactive effects of 1. railhead elevation at the front, middle, and back of the shelf 2. height of scenery and structures at the front, middle and back of the shelf 3. closeness of the scenery or structures to the track 4. whether you can reach straight to the track or have to go around or over something. If your scenery/tunnels are easily and completely removable (as you have mentioned in your givens and druthers), then you will be able to reach straight to your track at the back of the layout. Even with your top track at 56 to 58 inches elevation (about at your armpit level), you should still be able to reach 24 to 27 inches to clean track without leaning at all. If you figure there will be an inch or two between the track and the backdrop...and maybe more... you could probably go with a 26 to 29" deep shelf without a problem. Once scenery is in behind the back track, the longer reach to the backdrop becomes a little less of an issue (but won't ever go away completely).
Dave, again thanks for your wisdom! I plan on having the lower staging level at about 48". That will put Crescent at about 58". My wife is 5'5" tall, and she wants help scenic it. Maybe I should lower it? Maybe I should test it.
I measured a few things: my reach without leaning, and a few things at work that are 4' and 5' tall. I figure if my tracks are no closer than 4" from the backdrop/scenery on upper levels, I will have no problem reaching. I might build so staging is at 44-46". That way, about 10 inches of climb later, the summit of the layout would be about 56-58". That would be nearly eye-level for my wife. It is good for me too. I'll ask her what she thinks....
I talked to the wife, and she thinks 58" is too tall. Assuming I have 8-10" of separation from Plain to Crescent, then drop 2" to staging; if I put staging at 44", that puts the upper level at 56", and she thinks that is just fine. My very rough estimates giveme a figure of 140' of lumber to build the bare framework. Basically about 17, 8' x 3 1/2" strips. Tomorrow, to the wood shop to rip some plywood down! This wood shop has a panel saw.....
Hemi: You've talked about using portable modules for the layout, but not how you want to do the supporting legs. I've used L-girder construction with great success on my layout and helixes. You could probably get away with only 10 legs, so your under-layout space would be maximized. If you use the frame of your modules to serve as the stringers across the l-girders, you'll combine advantages from both. Before you finish cutting all of your plywoood into 1-bys, make a very detailed drawing of the helix so you know exactly (within an eighth of an inch) how high the railheads will be at the point of leaving the 42x42 helix module. If you decide to use the cookie cutter design of a spiral helix, you'll have the flexibility to put the Plain and Crescent railheads just about any height you want. BUT you should let your desired grade through the helix (2%?) determine how high those tracks will be. Don't figure you can increase the grade "just a little" to gain another inch or so of height, because that little stretch will have a BIG effect on the calculated grade. You mentioned 10 inches difference between Plain and Crescent when I had talked about 8 to 10 between Staging and Crescent... To rise 10 inches at 2% grade, you'll need 500 inches of track in your loops. The circumference of a 20 inch radius loop is 125 inches; of an 18.75" rad loop is 117; of a 17.5" radius loop is 110; and of a 16.25" radius loop is 102. Total track length through a spiral helix with those loops will be a tad over 450 inches. The bad news is that this length will yield a total rise of 9 inches between Staging and Crescent within the helix. mg: DON'T PANIC!mg: You'll notice I said "within the helix". If you start your grade 50 inches before the lowest first loop of the helix and continue rising for 50 inches after the end of the highest loop by Crescent, the good news is :teeth: you'll gain one inch more height between Staging and Plain and a (second) inch more height between Plain and Crescent. This makes the total elevation difference between Staging and Crescent equal to Tah Dah!: 11 inches.
I like your thinking! Wow! So I guess I should get to cuttin' eh? I have a bunch of 2x4's stocked in the garage, picked up free from a neighborhood wood recycling pile. Ain't recycling great?
And it's done.. 60 bucks worth of 3/4" 5-ply sanded plywood reduced to 21 3 1/2" strips and change. The larger strip will be used for staging, once I begin construction... Construction may begin soon!!!*jumps*
