Trackage Update # 1 Well I got started on the track plan. Decided the north class yard would be the start. Got it drawn up in anyrail, sheesh was it huge, so I cut about four feet of it out. It is still pretty long. Go ahead and critique. I used #5 turnouts, should I go to a #7 or #10? The shortest leg of the yard will hold 15 7" inch cars the longest will hold 26. Should I shorten it to say 10 car lengths? The two dead spurs at the top look like they use to put gondolas on for scrap from the yard. The bottom I'm still working on. I may curve the west end of the yard a bit. One square = one foot. Jody
Not trying to be insulting here, Jody, but in my opinion you are doing this bass ackwards. Instead of starting by drawing some random segment of tracks - say a yard, how about starting by thinking about what you want to be able to do on your layout as a whole? "Should I use medium or large turnouts?" and "should my shortest yard track hold 10 or 15 cars?" are questions which are linked to how you want to run your railroad and what you want to run on it. If you describe your layout as if it was a a part of a real railroad - how would you describe this area? Are you representing a mainline or a branch line? Is your main yard located at the end of the line, along the line or at a junction? Will you be interchanging traffic with other railroads, and if so - where? What time period will you be modeling? What kind of trains you are going to run - long coal trains? Through freight trains? Local freight? Passenger trains? What kind of engines - small steam, big steam, diesels, electrics? This kind of stuff helps decide what kind of curves and turnouts you will need. How long trains? Deciding on "lineals" - typical and max train lengths help decide how much space you will need for staging, passing sidings and yard tracks. How many trains will be running at the same time? How many people will be running trains at the same time? This helps decide how many passing sidings you will need, how many staging tracks, how many yard tracks, how wide aisles and stuff like that. For instance - a layout intended for running three trains per "day" (session) needs a lot less staging than a layout intended to model a busy double track mainline where 20 trains will be passing through in the course of an operating session. What will be happening in your yard - will it just be a place where trains stop to switch engines, cabooses and crew? Or will it be a point where cars are re-sorted into new blocks that go out on other trains? A place where lots of trains terminate, or a place where most trains just pass through or pass by? Will it be a working yard, or visible staging - a place where you park trains while they wait for their chance to appear "on stage"? In general - having an overall idea about what you want to model is a good idea before you sit down and fiddle with drawing and redrawing yard tracks. You may have such an overall idea, but if you have, you have not yet really communicated it clearly. Smile, Stein
hi Jody, the remark about the radius was meant differently. Your space is that huge you could aim higher. Building UP's Bailey Yard along a double-track main with lots of trains in the 100 car range, and not just a few every day but every hour of the day, i could imagine huge radii as well. If this is really possible is still to be seen. I never intended to "own" your layout,.... not very much big layouts are build in mushroom style, though i should make clear there is difference between an occasional mushroom and systematically mush-rooming all the peninsula's. If choosing the latter you are forced into a multi-blob design; compared with a spiral-double-backdrop approach you probably will win no space, so why invest in all the extra effort. Coming back to building Bailey Yard. You call it "taking some fat off". A nice way to tell, you will need to shrink the size 5 times, both in length and in width. The result could be called a caricature. About switch-numbers.....those big engines and long auto-racks require at least #7 turnouts and probably #10's in crossovers. Pushing long cuts of those cars through ladders without derailments won't come easy. What would be far more interesting is a scaled down overall plan where we could see at least how the arrival yards, departure yards, the bowls, the humps and the engine terminal are orientated. To keep the feeling of the UP's way of life, trains should be kept long, if possible in the 30+ range. Without seeing more of your condensed overall vision it is impossible to be more precise. Your remark about hiring a professional was not appropriate. They work the same way as on a forum, it is back and forth operation, so it will remain your layout always. On this forum however we are able to express gratuit opinions, when you hire some-one he should deliver a good job. As a professional yourself you should know. How many not so knowledge-able clients did you help on the right track? While not working for free. BTW, as far as I know you would be the first building a working N-scale hump-yard. Since the operation of Bailey Yard depends on it, it could be an idea to set up a trial. I've heard through the grapvine about costs between 50 and 100 dollars for every square foot, when your layout is fully sceniced of course. And the 50000 dollars for the building, not mentioned by you BTW, are IMHO a huge understatement. Doing the job yourself might be the difference. Have fun with planning the build, Paul
Okay, okay I get the point. Sometimes I have a bad habit of not explaining my intentions well enough and occasionally the internent does not portray what one actually means. Don't lose any sleep over anything I say as I won't for what is said to me. Everyone has thier own opinion and I understand that not everyday is a good day. I never said I was modeling anyone rail company, remember me mentioning freelance in my first post. I picked Bailey yard not because of it huge size, but because it has elements that one I like and two seem to work well for them. Never said it was goiing to do prototypical ops like Bailey does. There will be no hump, gosh it'd be awesome to have a working hump yard but that seems to much like work to get all the kinks worked out in this lifetime. Nope gonna use modelers license here on that one. In fact I think I'll name this yard today. Being that it will be in the good ol USA and no offense to Mr. Bailey as I am using parts of his namesake I now crown this yard as..... ah maybe not today. I came to this forum to gain knowledge and seek advice from you all and I appreciate it very much, but for the love of pete get off of how much you all think this is going to cost. Bottom line is its coming from my pocket not you alls. I have a very large skill set to fall back on, so I can and will always find some way to make a buck or two if needed. Sorry about the designer remark, no harm intended. I've spent the last 25 years fixing, removing or modifying other peoples handy work. I'm done with that part of life. I'm sure there are a great group of these layout designers out there, I wish them the best and if I wanted a design yesterday I would without a doubt be calling on one of these guys in a heartbeat. Okay then let talk trains now. Appreciate info on the switch sizing, if I understand you correctly I should use at least #7 in the yards or where any of my longer rolling stock will travel off of the main. I should use #10 on any crossovers I have on the mains. How about passing sidings, #7's okay there? So 30+ cars. That can be done but does my class yard have to have it's smallest leg that length or can I use two/three legs to form the train up and then move to the ready line? So I could possibly have two or three trains being put together in both north and south yards at the same time. The north yard feeding everything going west and the south feeding east. I guess the reason I want to get the this part of the layout done first, is it will feed all the industries. It will be the center and busiest part of the layout. An intermodal yard, a refinery, sawmills, steels mills, auto factory, you name it and if there is room it'll go into the layout. All that freight has to go somewhere and this yard will be the place where it is divided up. There will be other smaller yards, has to be. Where some great shortline action will be happening. So I know that there will be intermodal traffic, also auto carrier traffic and gotta have car parts too. So right there is some of my grand scheme so to say. I am always open to suggestions as to what different industries I could possibly have. Oh, I am trying to keep the modeling era from the 70's to present. I like big diesels but like to run some steam now and again too. It's a hobby and is to be fun. Jody What should I name the BIG YARD?
Whatever you like. It's not like it is one of the bigger issues when designing a layout - the name tag on the fascia can be replaced in seconds .... I wish you the best of luck with your layout. Smile, Stein
Jody, for years (since 1947) I configured my layouts (aka. started) based on an elaborate engine terminal, or a lovely mountain line, or a sinuous routing with lots of twists and turns. Finally, thanks to Hurricane Katrina and moving into a new home well north of the Gulf of Mexico, reality blossomed within my brain, or psyche, or somewhere within my rational existance. 'tanyrate, when looking at my new train room, I said to myself ,"Self", I said, let's build a conglomeration of rural New Hampshire (my youth) and rural Mississippi (my home). OK, now, for the first time in my modeling career, and it has been a career, I am actually creating a rather satisfying operational diorama centered around a pair of rural branch lines that I'm very pleased with. My point is, it's wonderful to have grandeous goals, but occasionally one has to decide upon a rational concept then proceed one attainable step at a time. It's so satisfying when you can post a photo on TrainBoard and have one or two guys say "neat". OK, so I am unashamedly suggesting that you search for Saucier Central to see how I finally achieved modeling sanity. Please forgive an Old Fart whose been there and finally saw the light.
:thumbs_up: got to start somewhere, and the place everything else is comming or going from is as good as anywhere. i'm looking forward to years of seeing this thread, and build, evolve
I just wanted to log in to wish you well on your project. There are so many things to consider it is difficult to know where to start, but you do have the time to plan and that's good. I have two layouts. One is a modular 18' x 32' layout in a room which has just enough space for visitors to walk around the outside. The other is a permanent, multilevel layout built to the walls in a 22' x 44' room with access to the railroad primarily through aisles around peninsulas. I'm not much for telling others what to do with their railroads, so I won't offer a lot of advice. However, that being said, there are a couple of things that need to be given serious thought to. One very important consideration is ease of maintenance, which has already been mentioned. If I want to operate one of my layouts it will be the modular layout 95% of the time, if for no other reason than the fact that I can clean the track and be running trains in a matter of minutes. The other layout has places that are difficult to reach and cleaning track is a major operation in itself. By the time all the track is cleaned well enough to operate from one end of the layout to the other, it's time to go home and watch TV. The other point that I will make is to plan your layout construction with the largest possible switches. Smaller switches might be okay on a branch line, but a mainline railroad that runs long trains will need the larger turnouts. That's enough advice for now. Check out my Facebook page for photo albums of my layouts. (The HO layout is history; I model in N scale now.)
There's so much I could say about this. I spent a long time roughing out (and sometimes more than that) large layouts, so I discovered some things about planning them. My last such major plan was an N 32x32 double-deck, so comparable in scope to your layout. 20" radius is probably a decent minimum. On a layout with long trains, on steeply graded sections, you'll want to raise that a few inches at least to avoid stringlining. Minimum radius isn't the important thing in N scale in a large space. John Armstrong's "squares" system - layout planning based on minimum radius - isn't meaningful here. I've discovered that, once a typical train is more than about 3 squares long - that is, longer than the circumference of a circle of track - train length becomes the predominant space-consuming factor. That said, you have enough space for long trains. My 32x32 was designed for 17' trains, more than 40 50' cars with engines. It had a major yard and intermodal terminal, far too wide for a shelf. It was on a peninsula with no center backdrop. Not every yard track needs to be long enough for a full mainline train. The arrival/departure tracks should be (on a layout and yard this size, you'll probably have several of those) and it's helpful to have another track(s) that long, but shorter tracks can be useful in combination with those. 30" aisles are rather narrow. That's alright as a choke point, but you want most of the aisles wider. Club layouts often seem to aim for 4' aisles, and for any layout with many operators, that seems a good standard. Which begs the question: how many people do you expect to operate this layout at any one time? Even though this isn't technically a club, unless you have a lot of model railroaders in the area who'll jump at the chance to operate on a layout larger than anything they have (and don't have the weird problem one builder of a large layout said he had: too many other large layouts in the area competing for operators), it's hardly any fun to have a layout that big.
UPGUY, Thanks for the feedback. I have thought about this all day. You and a few others have mentioned modular layouts. I'd like this idea, however I don't want this to turn into an Ntrak layout, standards are too stringent for me. Not saying that a couple of modules couldn't be built to accomodate a few visitors that have Ntrack modules. I'll have alot of space to fill and it will take time. I like the thought of a couple of modules and maybe a temp run around loop to do continuous ops. This would get me up and running trains quicker and I could add modules at any time. One of the main issues I have is, maximizing the space available with layout shape and size. I don't want a whole bunch of 2 x 4 modules connected together. I want some curvature to it. How big is too big for a module? One of the things I like about this concept is, if you need to work on a module you can pull it, set in a temporary section and continue on. I'm going to contemplate this some more. I've looked at alot of track plans, I don't want to re-create the wheel so to speak and there are alot of awesome layouts out there. Maybe I can adapt the things I like from all of the different layouts and modularize them. Jody
My modular layout isn't built to N-trak specifications although a few of the modules could be adapted easily to them. Most of the modules are 2' x 4', but they vary depending on circumstances. If you have a Facebook account you can see photos of a lot of my modules on my Facebook page for the Train Barn: Home of the Oregon Western Lines. (Try the link in my signature) Be sure to check out the photo albums. I also have a RailImages account with some pictures. Here is a link to a thread I posted on Trainboard that shows how I worked in a yard inside my modular layout. This may give you some ideas. http://www.trainboard.com/grapevine/showthread.php?138764-Diagonal-Yard-for-a-Modular-Railroad I used a two track standard for most of my modules, so I could have two trains running at once without collisions. I can run more with DCC, but if it is just me running trains for visitors it's much easier to just turn the trains on and let them run while I am free to talk. Several modules can be mated together and the track configurations between them do not have to meet N-trak or any other standard. Only the ends which interface with other modules (N-trak or whatever) need to be constructed to the standard set backs.
Nice space! Mind you it will be slightly smaller once you allow for the lounge area/ entrance way, the shop area complete with separate painting room, the washroom, the utilities room etc. On the modular idea - actually I prefer segmental since it has more of a free flow - that should keep you plugging along while enjoying some of the stuff you have up and running. Have a temporary return loop on both ends while working on the next segments. That's where the shop enters the picture. With a large layout like that the last thing you want to be tied down with is : track cleaning which means keep the layout room as dustfree as possible. Since you're starting from scratch you just tell the builders about this requirement. :drool: And yes you will need a plan, AnyRail will do a fine job, provided you keep your segments to a reasonable size. I'm in IIm (1:22.5) and doing large scale layouts takes some getting used to with AnyRail - my first and still most favourite track planning software is CADrail - it is even more of a challenge with such a large layout in N-scale. Any other advice? Yep: build it right the first time around, you'll be glad you did - less maintenance and headaches. Build it high enough to have the highest track at your shoulder height. Work down from there. 40"off the floor will be a challenge when you're 60+ .... and a few things are starting to wear on that layout. One final one: contrary to general perception ... there is a lot more scenery out there than railroad. PS on CADrail: since it is a fullfledged CAD program I can design anything from tiny parts to really large layouts with furniture, benchwork, printed circuit boards etc. etc. in between. All the scenery for customer's layout plans I do in COREL Draw i.e. use the right tool for the job and get better results.
Thanks guys!!! You all are a great bunch. Did some doodling in any rail. After reading the 2012 model railroad planning mag I decided that the east brookfield autorack terminal would be cool. So I doodled it. Needs some tweaking but it is a start. I even put in a run around for continuous ops. I am working on a Intermodal part also and a staging/class yard, once I get a few of these larger industries done then it's on to some smaller things. Then conecting the different parts together. Oh and that is the usable space. Shop and little boys room are attached. I hate dust after woodworking for 10 years. The space will have a large filtering system. Like this - http://www.grizzly.com/products/Remote-Controlled-Heavy-Duty-Double-Air-Filter/G9956 or this - http://www.grizzly.com/products/Hanging-Air-Filter-w-Remote/G0572 Here are the files. Hmm, can't figure out how to attach the .any file.
hi, you will have seen the HO Allagash RY in MR-Planning as well. Your space is 50% larger and you are building in N-scale. IMHO you are wasting your time or avoiding what planning really is asking from you. A first glance is enough to know that you have all the space to add all the goodies you can imagine. Drawing the main, with staging and the big yard indicated, is what should be done first; the overall scheme of your layout. Drawing one bundle of the bowl of a huge classification yard, with arrival and departure yards, engine service and repair facilities, is not doing much good. SteinJr gave you a very good advice: do NOT start by drawing some details. Especially not if you are still have no idea at all about the grand scheme. You are the kind of plumber i would never invite near my house. Constructing all the piping for my spa in your workshop. Only after coming over for the installation finding out the dimensions of my bathroom were quite different, and telling me: so sorry, it does not fit. Yeah, and even then presenting me the bill. BTW people were talking about dollars and operators for very good reasons. If you do not manage to create a steady 1000 + dollar investment every month for the next 20 years or so, and do not find the 10 or 20 guys needed for operation; you wil not make your dream come true. Dreaming is great, planning is next. Paul
Hmm, I do have an a grand scheme, just don't have all the pieces of the puzzle yet. That's why I'm here. I'm not a plumber but I have built many things for my customers in-shop and never once had to remake anything and never made a customer pay for something that wasn't right. Why do I have to conform to some unwritten rule. I fully intend to carefully plan, test and re-test every section of my layout until it is the way I want it. Last night I loaded a layout, guess what, i didn't like it, yeah sure I'd be able to run trains all day long but it just didn't lend itself to playing nice with other sections. Well below is a revised version, I like it much better. It'll fit in three different corners of my space and if I need it out on a peninsula, guess what...I can change it accordingly. That layout will take 2 of my standard modules and 2 half modules, the run around can be setup on any flat surface. Now I'm not saying that this scene is perfect, in fact I already see a few things that need to be tweaked, but it gives me a good idea of how the connecting modules need to start. My core modules are 24" x 6', and can easily expanded in width, 6' long is all I have for being able to transport them right now, so it stays at that length. Besides any longer and they become a two person job. I'm not building the whole layout off site and the expect it to fit like a golve. I know contractors and not many use a square or level so I'm not gonna to fall into that trap. Besides there is no way I can get 50+ modules built, ready to run and stored in 36 months. But what I can do is get a few modules built from my layout and at least be able to run some trains. Instead of worry about $$$ and what my overall scheme is, why not help guide me with each module. If all the kinks are worked out on each one then we all benefit from the lessons learned as I know there are guys/gals out there that only have a percentage of the space and may find one of the modules is to thier liking and use it in thier layout. This first section is a good start, I have a double main, a siding (can be used for passing if needed) an industry (auto carrier) that requires some switching take place. A couple of crossovers. I ask what else is needed on these modules for this section to function as intended (empties delivered, full ones taken on thier way). I expect at least 3 empties (30-40 cars each) to come in and 2 fulls (45-50) to go out about every day. Oh, ever hear of computers. Automation is such a sweet thing. Oh I'm sure there will be a few extra warm bodies around to help but I never said it was going to be a requirement. Jody
hi Jody, If you have an overall scheme, show it too, in stead of showing only those small possible sections. Filling in the details comes later. You will learn the hard way. Paul
Paul, I'm getting there, it's slow progress on something this size. I'll try and get a sketch drawn up tonight and post. I've tried doing the "benchwork" on anyrail but it always ends up looking like south end of a northbound moose. I'll do a bit of doodling with paper n pen and then will go from there. How about the above section? What does it need as far as track work? I need to adjust the mains at the top, just doesn't look quite right to me. I also think the "engine hole" needs to have enough room for at least two loco's maybe three as I plan on a bit of grade up the siding and then up into the storage tracks. Plus I was thinking of a small siding somewhere in there for fueling/maintenance for the loco's. What cha think?
Okay, had a boring telecon so here it is. Hope this turns out ok. Jody Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk
I'll second that!! It would be nice to have a general idea of the purpose of the line is supposed to be. Going from one extreme to the other: a) giant classification yard with a huge staging yard attached to both ends b) a freelanced line, sometimes single track and close to population centers double tracked. With interchanges to other lines which can be modeled with the bare minimum or as another major RR or for that matter a Class 2 feeder. With small town and industries along any of the lines. It would also be nice to have some idea what era it is supposed to be. Right now there are a lot more questions than answers to be gleaned from your list.
