Hello all, first time poster but longtime lurker. I'd like thank everyone for the volumes of information on this site!!! Awesome, I can't get enough. I've got the N-scale sickness bad. My challenge is to fill a 38' W by 58' L train building that will be built along with a new home in the not so distant future. I have about two years until ground breaking. I do however want to start the planning of the layout now so any building needs (ie: electrical outlets, lighting,ect) can be addressed prior to final plans approval. The building will have climate control, I like to be comfortable all year long. I can use the ENTIRE space for just trains, the only non-trainable space is on one skinny end, I need a 3' by 20' no build zone for the person door and the roll-up garage door, the area between the doors will house my work bench. That's it, the rest is free space, no poles in the way either. This is one of those steel buildings, will be insulated and the other skinny end designed to be expanded. The layout will be what I call a Hybrid layout. A cross between prototypical and freelance. Which means I want to have some real life areas mixed in with some modelers license. I've set the following guidelines for the layout: 1. Bench height- minumum 40" (unless I need a deep gorge) because I am 6' 7", nuff said. 2. Bench depth- unless both sides are accessable no more than 30" to any track (any corners are exempt but no track beyond 30"), both sides accessable 60" 3. Must have elevation changes 4. No less than 20" radii on mainline 5. Maximum use of two mainlines with plenty of passing sidings 6. Lots of industry for switching 7. Big classification yard (North Platte anyone) 8. Big intermodal yard 9. No helixes 10. Varied scenery from mountains to flatland 11. Got to have a Walmart 12. A farm or two 13. Lots of bridges 14. A few tunnels 15. Mix of modern and hometown buildings 16. Yards to feed the switching which are fed from the classification yard 17. Continous loop 18. No duck unders (liftouts or hinged access okay) 19. Minimum 30" isles (except for classification yard as it may need to be done in two halves) 20. Must be fun to operate, challenging but fun 21. DCC control for everything (I have Digitrax) 22. Passenger service and the occasional steam powered excursions 23. May be two level (remember no Helix) 24. Code 55 rail (mostly Atlas flex) 25. Switches ???? Need help with sizing here 26. Micro Engineering bridge track on all bridges 27. Use forum sponsors to purchase supplies from There may be a few left off but I reserve the right to change my mind. The bench work will be easy for me, but shape will depend on final track plan. Benchwork will be built in sections as an area is finalized, I figure I need three sections to get started, may keep the length of each section to no more than 6' to be able to store until the big move in. I'll build racks for them to be stored level on. Track work can commence once I have three adjacent benchwork sections ready. Any trackage not bridging a bench section will be made permanent. No permanent structures/scenery until move in, but will use structures as placeholders. I use Anyrail for designing so if you all can help I'd appreciate it, can't compensate anyone for helping but you may get a street/town/hiway/yard named after you. And of course you all can visit once I get moved in!!!!!!!!!!!! Since I'm a huge fan of big yards I'd like to start with North Platte, NE. I'd love to do it 1:1 but will have to shrink the length a bit. I see the yard as being the center of the layout and would like to use the maximum length of the building to model it. I envision long intermodels/grain/coal trains pulling in here. How many cars should I limits my trains too? I hope this makes some sort of sense. It's been a long day. I'm sure to have lots of questions. Anyone good at using google maps to overlay track on to? I think going 1:1 on it first then trimming it to fit the space allowed would work best. Anyone willing to get me started with that? Thanks for letting me test your patience. Jody
You can have multiple levels, it just depends on how large you want this layout. There is maintenance to a model RR as large as you envision, so be aware of that. I'm assuming from your wish list, you are going to have some form of operations, which means many people. If you are going to have folks over, have a dedicated area for a "lounge" while they wait would be helpful and you have the room. You might google mushroom designed layouts if you want multiple decks but only one deck visible. If you like this option, you would be well advised to consider a ten foot ceiling (Tony Koester wishes he had gone with higher ceilings), with air circulation a high priority, the mushroom design cuts down on air circulation, having multiple operators increases the heat factor; and lighting will up the heat as well. If you want modern structures, N scale is weak in this area. N scale is the best scale for running modern equipment, yet the structures offered copy what happens in HO so a concentration on transition era buildings. So if you want to be prepare yourself, start finding some articles with modern structures with plans and scratch build them (not that hard at all). Also is your layout going to be dispatched, if so will you have a dedicated room for the dispatcher (doesn't need to be large). You will definitely want a utility sink in the area as you will be using it lots. Start designing today as I found for my plans, it took me about 7 or 8 plans before I was happy with what I came up with. Plausibility versus realism - Tony Koester in his book on layout planning did a good job in describing how for many it isn't as important to model exactly what is out there, but to present a plausible versus realistic layout. A shay engine may be very realistic but is it going to work in a modern yard. I think to get the flavour of what you want is more important than getting the exact reality. I remember one layout I saw perhaps 12 years ago in Model Railroader, the modeller had done an excellent job of capturing the atmosphere of the steam era, but everywhere on his layout was pollution from oils and coal dust and run down tenements . When I saw it, I thought he had done an excellent job of creating an accurate portrayal of that era, I just didn't want to be around his layout which depicted so much pollution and ruin. After getting to the stage I am at and looking back and critiquing myself, I'd say I didn't have a clear enough mission statement both strategic and tacticle in nature. So my overall mission statement is "I want a modern era layout depicting the coastal regions of Western Canada, with CN and CP as my primary carriers." But I needed to focus more on what the trains were actually going to do, how long they needed to be to do it, and the necessary trackage to reflect what jobs needed to be done. So once you have your overview statement, then you want to get down to the nitty gritty; I want grain trains, they will be switched here, they will be interchanged there, there will be two of them a day. My coal trains will load here and carry them there.....;' you get the idea. The more you can focus in on how your layout is going to "play out," the more focused your planning, your tactics follow your strategy.
hi A few remarks: 1) "a radius no less then 20' " sounds weird; no less then 40' would be more appropriate. 2)Hire a professional, like Byron Henderson or Lance Mindheim, their fee will be nuts compared to the total cost of your empire. 3)A lounge area is very important, thinking about mushroom designs is a waste of time. (explaining this could take some time) 4)Maybe I am wrong, though the idea of building, operating and maintaining North Platte Yard is a fools thought. It is 8x2 miles; you will probably need more then 5 of those rooms for building North Platte yard alone in N-scale. Not even thinking about the number of operators. Wild thoughts, changing them into planning criteria is a huge step. More then 10000 cars are going through this yard daily. Paul
Well, minimum 20" radius curves on the mainline does not sound totally weird for N scale. It would be appropriate for 4x curves for cars up to about 60-65 feet, and 3x curves for cars up to about 89 feet. I quite agree that the goals are pretty vague - basically "I want a big layout with a huge yard, some random elements including bridges, tunnels and farms, and I want to have a walk-in design with wide curves and no helix - now I just need a plan". I would also suggest hiring a layout designer - working from the vague vision to an actual design would take far too much time and be too much work to be very tempting for a random fellow forumite. But this would make good reading as a first step of a large design: http://www.x2011west.org/handouts/ldBootcamp.pdf Smile, Stein
Hi, Welcome to the TrainBoard, glad to have you on board. Recommendation for layout height, since you're 6'7", consider at least 45", if not a 50" layout height. At 45, bending your 6'7" frame down to 40" offers no constraints. However, at 6'2", my 76 year old arthritic back is very pleased that it doesn't have to bend very much to work a 45" height. BTW, having your furthest track only 20" from the edge is fine, but your scenery will be 30", more in the corners, and it will require as much, if not more work than the trackage.
What's wrong with having a MINIMUM radii setting of 20? I set this as a minimum so I can run those longer cars without them looking too crappy when rounding the curves. Doesn't mean all my curves will be 20". Just don't want any under that on the main. As for hiring someone, sure I could do that but it wouldn't be MY railroad then would it. Knowledge is power and asking questions and learning will only make this layout better. If I want a mushroom I can have one, remember this is MY railroad not yours, I really don't want two levels but if I need some staging it might have to be on a different level. A fools thought? I know how big the yard is and can do the math on how much space a 1:1 layout in n scale would be. I said I would love to do that in 1:1, if a big wharehouse drops in my lap I just may do it to say it can be done. I realize I am going to have to compress the yard in order for it to be manageable, but I would like to model it in anyrail 1:1 then start trimming the fat off. My sound foolish to you but works for me, just need some tuturing with the overlaying side of it. Never said I was modeling the North Platte operations, yes alot of freight goes thru there but see #20 in my first post. Trying to dispatch that much freight would be a full time job and I already have one of them.
I like this idea, I got a small bench work frame I can work this height dilema out with, I'll just build a couple sets of legs and see which one "feels" better. I think going higher will be better in my case and if anyone vertically challenged can use some sort of platform. Thanks to an old Navy injury I've already started the arthritic back symptoms, so higher is better. For the corners I saw, I think on here, where the scenery was done off the benchwork and then installed in the corner. What do you think? Your insight is very appreciated. Jody
Welcome to the fray wisker. I'm envious of your space, it sounds like some club size layout. Your best bet would be to purchase a large sketchbook (like 9x12) and just start doodling ideas. Once you land on something you like and feel is partly workable, post a picture of it and we'll be able to really start helping you fine-tune your railroad. Taking this approach means it will be "your" railroad more then where we are now with just a list of your givens and druthers. Your other option is to use your Anyrail software. If find it a bit clunky trying to work on the big "dream layout" on my laptop though cause there is only so much screen and therefore I have to keep the view ratio tight. If you need help figuring out Anyrail, I feel pretty comfortable with it's features (its far more intuitive then the GIS program I use at school). Just send me a PM and I'll see what I can do to help.
Pre-assembled scenery may work, but I'd be concerned about visible lines of height and angular mismatch with scenery already in place. Consider instead, a curved backdrop of 1/8" Masonite or similar containing scenes painted, or pasted, before installation, or at least before building interfering benchwork. That way, any scenery creation and maintenance would be within reach. The radius of backdrop curvature can be determined by the length of your arms pivoting from the inside corners of the benchwork. With a project of this size, the relatively small amount of time creating a backdrop, albeit extensive, would be time well spent. Keep in mind the P7 philosophy...Proper Prior Planning Prevents P**s Poor Products.
The challenge is both length and depth. A realistic yard that you can reach across, and where you have enough spacing between tracks to read car numbers and get your fingers in when necessary has maybe 10-15 parallel tracks. Trying to "compress" Bailey yard will not really yield a downscaled version of Bailey yard. It will yield a carricature with a sign saying "Bailey yard", which will look and operate nowhere like the huge sorting machine at North Platte. Likewise - it will also be clumsy if the yard tracks can support far longer trains than what can be supported by the rest of the layout - in terms of siding lengths, the length of staging tracks etc. Byron Henderson coined (or used) a good expression. Instead of always tryinging to apply "selection compression" to huge structures, sometimes it is smarter to make a "compressive selection" - i.e. to select to model something smaller, which either can be modeled fully to scale, or where selective compression can be kept to a minimum. Anyways - a good place to start learning about layout design and track planning is "the bible" of track planners and layout designers - John Armstrong's book "Track Planning for Realistic Operations", which can be found e.g. on Amazon. Smile, Stein
Awesome idea!!!! I do have a 39" reach so using this method will still give plenty of room on the corners. Thanks!!!
Totally under stand this. I guess I need to determine what my maximum train length will be, knowing that having a 40 car maxi stack probably isn't going to work, but maybe 25 is more realistic. The plan is too have access to both sides of the yard and to split it onto to seperate benches, north side and south side, so that nets me about 60" in depth on each bench to work with, the attached pic shows 6 sets of track, I like this layout but think that maybe only use three of the 6 on my layout. This gives me 30 tracks for classification, maybe instead of ten tracks per section do only six and place this as the north side. I'll do some doodling tonight and see if I can do what I envision on how the bench is shaped. Crap, I just noticed the yard on the the south side too. So looks like I need to have really think about this.
Not to be an a-hole here but are you biting off more than you can chew? I got a lot of questions that you need to answer if not to us than at least answer them to yourself. Thats over 2100 sq. ft.of space. Do you plan on building this layout all by yourself? How much $ do you plan on spending? Just the building itself will cost over $50,000. Where is this going to be located(what state)? How will it be heated and cooled? If you are in a cold climate the heat bill alone will be big coin. How much do you plan on spending on just the layout including benchwork and track? You got enough room for easily 5000 feet of track(thats about 150 N- scale miles). Loco's and rolling stock? Structures and scenery? Supplies? If you are wealthy than I guess you could afford it. You are 45, are you married? Kids? If so is the wife on board with this? You say you already have a full time job, when will you have time for this? This sounds like a full time job itself , how long (how many years)do you plan on spending just in the construction phase of this layout? I'm sure I'm not the only one to wonder all this ,so I hope others will chime in on these kinds of questions too. Again I'm not trying to be an a-hole, just realistic. Btw how big is the new house going to be?
I'll try an answer these as reasonably as possible. More than I can chew? Nah, I learn very quickly and adjust well to change. I will have occasional help but for the most part it will be me. No biggie, doesn't have to be done overnight. Building will be about 2/3 that as the steel buildings are easier than a stick built. I have help with erecting it. Will be moving to PA in three years. Heating and cooling will be a combo of systems utilizing an outside condenser and a hot water insert in the air handle, with the hot water being provided by an outdoor wood boiler. I have this type of system in my house right now except run off an oil boiler, works well and the electric bill isn't bad. And the most oil used for a year with ex and kids was 633 gallons. About a third of that now. Have kids (grown and gone) no wife. Going to work for about 5 more years or so and then retire. I have residual income, minimal debt balance now, modest investments and a fund just for the house. Not wealthy but manage my finances very well. New house is still in thought stage, no bigger than 2500 sqft no smaller than 1800 sqft. Current place is well over 3000sqft. Now that kids are gone I don't need all those bedrooms. I'm not putting a deadline on this as that leads to very nasty redo's, I'll work it slow and steady and when it's done there will be updates no doubt. I've got three years to plan this before the new place is even close to being ready, even so most of the bench, track and electrical work will be done prior to moving. I currently am building up my stock of Locos, rolling stock, structures, track ect... So far not too bad. I have a few different industries that I am outfiiting my rolling stock with (autoracks, well cars, flat beds), and I add a few to the inventory each month. Almost done with well cars, need a few stand alones but those will be ordered next month. The hard part is converting all the trucks and couplers. I really don't care how much it costs, I only purchase after all the bills are paid and I have food on the table. Some months I have very little others I have alot. Hope this clears the air. I am better prepard than some for this task as I have alot of experience in woodworking (own business for 8 years) electrician for 20, and no baggage!!! I built a 35" x 48" bench frame with legs in about an hour from start to standing on all four legs. It's just a proto type but will be used to hone the remaining benchwork. Pretty much a jack of all trades. Need to brush up on some of the newer scenicking products and processes as I haven't done any modeling since the early 90's. Jody
The air here is clear now. Sweet. It sounds like you got your poop in a group. I seen many a huge endevours planned out over the years but none ever happen. I see you already got a lot of the major details already taken care of. You might consider all the free help you get here on Trainboard. There are a lot of guys here that would love to help you out with your master plan. What year are you planning on modeling? Present era is what I model, because of the massivness of the equipment and availability, but I still like to run a few ''name trains'' from the 40's and 50's (California Zephyr , Empire Builder, etc.)just because they are so cool.
In one of the recent Model Railroader specials, (Track Planning Annual or GMR or 43 Track Plans or...) there was an article on an incremental layout. I think the main points of the article would be really good for your situation. Build it sectional. Build it incremental. Doing so will allow you to get trains running far sooner, allow you to make changes with less hassle and expense as you see fit, and reduce the upfront cost. You can develop the "Grand Plan" up front, and build it chunk by chunk, constantly pushing the frontiers of your railroad. Some considerations for the building: include a bathroom. Budget for feet friendly flooring. If you'll need to pull power to the building, pull enough 220-240v power to run a decent woodworking/auto shop. This will both allow you to easily fall back into your evil old woodworking ways (if you want), and be a good selling point in the event you choose to sell.
I'll have to look for that article. Thanks for the info. I do plan on a separate 200 amp serve for the garage, for those very reasons.
Some days I feel like I'm trying stuff 10 pounds of poop into a 5 pond sack. I'll be modeling about the same as you, there are still alot of older buildings and such out there.
Ah Yes, the classic Blivet, http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=blivet, an eternal quandry for model railroaders...:err:
