Falcon468 - I'll see if I can find the back issue of the article you mentioned. Larry - The ACL and SOU seeking trackage rights from the SAL on the Ashely R. side of the peninsula is strange. The SAL did not come to town until 1914 while the ACL/Sou tracks along the Ashley were well established by that date. Does your paperwork mention a location or specific plant site? I have a 1920s-era hand drawn map of the Charleston-North Charleston area with all industries and rail lines shown. The fertilizer plants on the Ashley R side are identified as being served by the ACL and a Joint Sou-SAL line (the double tracked industrial spur referenced in previous emails). BH
Ok, thanks on the Lines South article. To anyone: I have been working on this tonight and I have a question. Did the ACL ever operate passenger trains in SC that used a GP-7 as the motive power. I have seen pictures of C&WC using these engines in the summer, but was curious if the parent company ever did. I have a N- Scale set up using a GP-7 with coaches. Even though the historic police will not see it, I strive for authenticity. I even have a box car that runs between the engine and the coaches. I am sure that there were branch lines served by trains of this mix but thought I would ask. Thank you.
The reference I saw was the SAL "seeking" permission from the SOU to serve a plant that already had SOU service. The reference was on the internet but I can not recall any other particulars than that SOU "granted" SAL rights to build the spur. ACL had 24 boiler equipped GP-7's, #153 - #176. These were often used on local passenger trains that rated a single unit. I have even seen them on mainline trains in conjunction with E and FP units. However, I don't think there were too many local ACL passenger trains left in SC by the '50's-60's. AFAIK, no ACL F-7's were ever boiler equipped, but they did have 44 (?) FP-7's. Again, C&WC's F's had no boilers, but two of their GP-7's, #200 & #201 were boiler equipped. C&WC often used F's on their passenger runs in the summer, but I don't think any of their passenger stock was ever air-conditioned.
FYI there is going to be an article titled Fallen Flags: Atlantic Coast Line in the Summer 2009 issue of Classic Trains Magazine. Jamie
04 February 2009 Thanks Jamie. That will be a good issue. Perhaps there will be some information in the article about South Carolina and Charleston. Just a quick note. I'm worrking on the SY area information now and hope to post it soon. Larry @ SCRS
6 Febraury 2009 Destination: Charleston Union Station (CUS) – part four (4) SY Crossing, SY Tower and surrounding area. To begin with this part, I will start at where our family’s Waylyn home was located. For those that do not know where Waylyn is located, it is the area to the right of the east bound I-26 lanes, between the CSX overpass and the Dorchester Avenue exit. The Waylyn – Ranger Drive property where we lived is now under I-26. When I drive past there, I keep wondering how did the South Carolina Highway Department fit the total width of I-26 between Ranger Drive (still there) and the old ACL’s single track. The property our home was located on was not that deep. I believe that the CSX’s single track was moved over, nearer to the Norfolk Southern’s right of way. Someone help me out on this. My memories of the old SY area date almost totally from some of my teen years between the summer of 1950 and early 1952. Until then, I did not know that the SY area was there. My family had moved back to Charleston Heights (from Griffin, Georgia) when my dad took employment again at the U.S. Navy Yard. (Previously employed there in WW II). It was then during that time, when my family lived in Waylyn, I (and my brother) had lots of ‘very interesting railroad areas’ to check out. Our Waylyn home was really a good location for me to enjoy two very active railroads. We lived there for over a year until my parents purchased a home on East Surry Drive in Dorchester Terrace. Our home’s rear property line was next to the ACL’s single track – now CSX’s prime route in and out of the City of Charleston. At that time the track was seldom used. Only one time while we lived there did traffic take place on this track. It was a single SW switcher (no cars) in purple and white colors. It was moving toward the SY area. Just above our home was a large open area with no homes on it. The remains of a stub siding with the switch and frog removed, was still in place. Apparently this was the receiving area for materials, when the numerous homes were being built in Waylyn and Dorchester Terrace (WW II – 1942). There was a pathway on the outside of our property’s fence between Ranger Drive and Meeting Street. The path crossed the single ACL track, continued about sixty feet where it crossed the Southern’s double track, then through a wooded area where it crossed the ACL yard and double main line tracks. This was a good short cut for me to take my bicycle and rail fan the North Area, as the closest road crossing (Dorchester Avenue) was a long ride around. From our home, I had a very good view of the Southern’s Carolina Special (and also their freights) in and out of Charleston. Some distance across the Southern tracks, I could see the ACL’s trains moving in and out of Charleston. Also, if I walked out to the single ACL track, I could see some of the same trains at the SY crossing. On Saturday mornings and other out of school days, I watched for a ACL train out of Charleston (sometimes steam powered) that would later take the wye. Time permitting; I would go out to see it crossing the Southern tracks in the direction of John’s Island and Savannah. Now for the SY area – 1950 to 1950 time period. To establish a starting point in describing the SY area, imagine you and me standing at the northwest corner of the double crossing. The Southern tracks into Charleston are straight ahead. The ACL’s tracks are left and right. The SY tower and the ACL’s wye are to the left. I found that this northwest corner was a safe place where all the tracks could be seen. In this area was an old abounded masonry building (lots of old machines and piping inside). Here was the heavy rail double track crossover’s, ACL’s large wye with single track left and right legs that merged into the double tracks, before the double crossover - via a single crossover and both railroads having yards that were mostly unused, The Southern yard (about six tracks) was to the airport side of the double crossover. The ACL yard was to the right of the double crossover with a number of tracks. Here the single track that was behind our home merged into the yard. The wye that served the Stark Industrial (old U.S. Army Hospital) area was about half way between the double crossover and Dorchester Road crossing (still not hard surfaced). The real interesting part of this area was the double crossover, the large ACL wye and the SY tower. This would be a good place for a drawing of the trackage to be posted. If only I had a ‘digital camera’ then to record just part of the traffic. The wye provided routing of the trains to any of the three directions. To describe the wye, I will refer to the end nearest to the double crossover as the top. The SY tower was located here at the top between the two single legs. Trains heading toward the North Station and Florence, SC, after crossing over the double crossover would move over from the right track, crossing the single crossover to the left leg. At the end of the left leg, they would cross a single crossover to the right track. Those trains from Florence and the station would move into the wye toward the top and crossing the double crossover, without moving across any single crossovers. This same track method was used on the right leg for trains headed in and out of Charleston. The bottom of the wye – next to Meeting Street was doubled tracked. Trains traveling out of Charleston toward Florence could move through the bottom of the wye on the outside track (Meeting Street side). Trains from Florence into Charleston, could stay on the inside track – crossing over the two single crossovers. Continuing toward the Dorchester Avenue crossing, the Southern and ACL’s two track main lines almost merged for their route through the peninsula neck into the City of Charleston. Both ACL and Southern also had some yards between the double crossover and Dorchester Avenue. ACL had MOW cars and a work at their yard. The Southern would store occasionally store empty cars in their yard. ACL also a spur track to the U.S. Navy yard that entered their main just before the Dorchester Avenue crossing. This track crossed Meeting Street, ran along side of McMillian Avenue crossing Rivers and Spruill Avenues and then crossed over the SAL’s main line to access the Navy yard. Between Meeting and Spruill, there was a through siding. Just a note to tell about this ACL / SAL crossing. The SAL track was on a curve and elevated. The ACL’s track dropped about eight inches between SAL’s upper and lower rails. I would have liked to see a train cross over there. The ACL at one time had stored some box cars on the curve of that spur between the main line and Meeting Street. One morning on the way to Chicora High School, I saw all those cars lying on their sides. A previous wind storm had turned them over. Dorchester Avenue, from Meeting Street first crossed over the ACL’s double track, then over a space wide enough for a auto (if required) before crossing over the Southern’s double track. This is the crossing where the Southern built their gravel road for off loading hospital patients, I wrote about in a previous post. Dorchester Avenue then turned west before crossing the ACL’s single track. On the Charleston side of this single track crossing, it became a double track. In part five, I hope to write about the two main lines between Dorchester Avenue and the Magnolia tower. Larry @ SCRS
arry, Fascinating stuff once again! I have to jump over to Google Maps while reading your post to see what these areas look like today. I knew this area so well back in the day and is very interesting to have railroad context placed on all those tracks. Jamie
Larry - Thanks for the info on the area around SY tower. As I remarked earlier, that area of Charleston was "terra incognita" to me until the 1960's. I know as late as the early 2000's it was not unusual to see a CSX MP-15 and once, even one of the NS safety cab diesels (C-C no less) switching the tracks north of Dorchester Rd. and behind Harold's Lounge. I guess that big GE was the only unit available. Two big items for Southern Railway in Charleston were export coal and bananas. If I remember correctly Charleston had the only coal pier on the Southern System. I'm not certain when Southern quit using this facility. I remember trestle bents still being in the Cooper River during some of our bluefish expeditions in the Cooper in the 1970's and early '80's. At that time, I also seem to recall a small yard that was totally weed-grown. Possibly a yard for the coal dock? I did find a Charleston city map from the 1950's and as PalmettoLTD posted, the Southern crossed Ann St. came out on John St. then Chapel - in the center of both on its way to the banana docks, crossing both the SAL and ACL in the process. I seem to remember that one of my uncles went to work for United Fruit Co. in 1946 until 1966 (?) so I know that it was there for about 20 years. And, as mentioned in an earlier post, you could tell when a banana boat was in town. The Fruit growers Express reefers would fill several tracks in that small yard north of Line St. behind Harry Raben's. That was in the 50's. As a fairly regular patron at Raben's in the 1960's, I don't recall ever seeing the scene repeated in the 60's. In the 70's I saw my first ever Southern GP-7 at Reid St., very rare in the land of RS-3's but thats a story for another time.
11 February 2009 Dave. I remember the coal dock, however was not there at the right time to ever see any cars on it. I did see one banana boat being unloaded. I also saw passenger trains being turned on the station wye. Thes trains were cut in half as the top leg ended over the channel. Larry @ SCRS
Larry - I also, never really saw a banana boat being unloaded. I did on occasion see the Southern working the yard there east of East Bay St. and the cars being stashed in that little yard north of Line St. It was real easy to tell that a boat was being worked 'cause there were a lot of FGEX reefers. For those who came along a bit later, the banana dock was just below the old Grace Memorial bridge, yes the old "roller coaster" that I believe opened in 1929. I know more than once, heading toward Mount Pleasant seeing very neat, white painted ships moored alongside, but no rail activity at those times. And, in an earlier post, someone mentioned the "haunted" house at Three Mile. Well, if you drew a line from there to the Cooper, that was about the location of the coal docks. At the foot of Hasell St. was the SAL freight house and I know that they had a dock(s) on the Cooper, but I'm not sure about what ships may have docked there, possibly break-bulk? One thing for sure, just about every Friday night, SAL had two Morrell meat reefers on the house siding. Further south about Cordes Alley was the old Clyde-Mallory Line docks and rail lines reached there also. If I remember correctly, M. Pearlstine & Sons had a warehouse there. At about that time, Athearn came out with their 50 ft. plug door cars in both Hammes Beer and Pearl Beer, and I saw those two cars in that area. Can't speak about the specific details of either car, but the paint jobs seemed to be "spot-on." Well, here, I could go on about beer traffic to and through Charleston, but I'll save that for another post - especially if I can find out what sort/names cars Southern delivered Burger beer from Cincinnati.
Larry, Nice write up on SY Tower. I recall reading that SY replaced two earlier towers - an electro-mechanical interlocking (North Wye) located just south of the old North Charleston Station and a mechanical interlocking tower at located Ashley Junction where wye to Charleston joined the mainline. The story goes that the ACL contemplated a tower (future SY) at the Southern crossing, but desired to avoid the expense of three towers and nine men in such a limited area. ACL and US&S designed SY tower as an electro-pneumatic plant capable of handling all of the interlockings and eliminated the need for the two existing towers. I always thought SY stood for Ashley Jct. but now believe it stood for South Wye. Question: Do you remember the old ice plant and reefer icing platforms at Bennett Yard? Any details that you can share regarding the building, icing platforms, or operations would be greatly appreciated. Buddy Hill
17 FEBRUARY 2009 Buddy. You are probably right about SY being the south wye designator. Like you I thought it fit in somehow with the Johns Island, Ashley River and SY connection. Each segment of the SY area is a story on it own. It would be good to have a 1950 - 1955 aerial view to compare with today’s aerial view. As you know today’s SY is really an abreacted wye and the Charleston end of the tracks have been removed to just before Dorchester crossing. As for the ice house and icing platforms, I do not remember any. There were some MOW buildings and railroad homes where Bennett Yard Road - did end when it reached the track area. The old abounded building I talked about could have been the ice house; however that is where NS now has an industry spur track. Should that property been owned by ACL, then CSX would be having their spur track now serving those industries, Larry @ SCRS
Larry - I suspect that may have been the old ice house building. It was reportedly located on the north side of Bennett Yard in the general area where I-26 crosses the yard and was accessed on the south side of the building by one or two ACL sidings. The Southern had a siding on the north side of the building. I did not realize icing operations at Bennett had ceased by the early 50s.
17 FEBRUARY 2008 Buddy. That had to be the 'Ice building'. From the condition of what was left of the building, the icing operations had to have been closed down for a good long time. The roof had caved in, weeds were growing around inside, the remaining outside masonery walls were thick, there were some large opening where doors had been located and the various parts of machinery and pipes laying around, were rusted. One Sunday afternoon while the family was out for a afternoon drive, my brother and I asked if they would like to see the SY crossing and that old building. We drove in from the North 52 highway-Rivers side, right up to the building and parked on the ACL rail side. While we were there, an ACL freight arrived from the direction of Savannah, taking the west leg. That time, I (we) was at the right place at the right time. I had seen other trains cross over those diamonds however, this was the first time I had seen one from that side of the tracks. Imagine the sound of a long line of freight cars crossing over three sets of cross overs. At that time, my Dad, brother and I did walk through the remains of the building (Dad's first time). I do not remember if we determined what the building was used for. During the number of walking trips I made to the SY area, I do not remember seeing any remainng sections of the icing sheds (standing of laying down near the tracks). Apparently, ACL had eleminated this site to utilize a site farther north - perhaps Rockingham, NC. The sheds may have become someone's lumber for a building. Perhaps someone else can help add information about the icing operation. Larry @ SCRS
As far as I can recall, both ACL and SAL had icing facilities in Savannah. Northward, the SAL of course had a ice dock in Hamlet and ACL's was at Rocky Mount, NC. Locally I was not aware that any road had icing facilities here. It seemed to me that almost all the reefers used here for transport of truck crops and bananas were used as ventilators, 'tho I'm sure that there were exceptions. I am still slightly amazed at the demise of so much farming that used to take place in Charleston county and the associated railroad activity, and that, just in my lifetime! Along with that has gone probably 50 per cent or better of trackage in this county. Gone, along with farm branches, are just about all vestiges of street running. Although I know that the Port Utilities RR still has some trackage downtown, I wonder if any of it is ever used?
20 February 2009 Destination: Charleston Union Station (CUS) – part five (5). Dorchester Avenue Crossing to Magnolia tower and Junction. This area of Charleston is known as the ‘Peninsula Neck’ and often is just called the ‘Neck’. It lies between the Ashley and Cooper Rivers and is not a straight piece of land. The land curves as the rivers curve. The Neck basically extends from the Dorchester Avenue Crossing, a short distance west, of the Six Mile Viaduct to the area of Heriot, King and Meeting Streets, Magnolia Cemetery and I-26’s MP 219. From about Line and Ann Streets in the City of Charleston, along this Neck of land and out to this Six Mile area was where the Best Friend made its first ‘passenger/traffic run’, on Christmas Day1830. In the time zone of WW II and up to at least 1970, the ACL and Southern’s main lines, each with double tracks were still in place. In 1970, all the crossovers were apparently also still in place as passenger trains moved to and from the Southern and ACL tracks. The N.R.H.S., hosted by the Charleston Chapter held their National Convention in Charleston in 1970. The excursion trains were positioned on the Southern Tracks, at the Magnolia area. Trains arrived and departed from that area. One train, steam (doubled headed) made its way out of Charleston on Southern Tracks, crossed over to the outbound ACL tracks, preceded to the wye at SY Junction and traveled to Savannah, Georgia. It later returned the same day. From the Six Mile Viaduct inbound, the ACL and Southern tracks are almost centered along their Neck route into Charleston. King Street Extension is to the right of the main lines with Meeting Street Road to their left. Just for reference, after King Street crossed over the Six Mile Viaduct Bridge outbound, it is merged into Meeting Road. Meeting Street continued to the Seven Mile Viaduct (old North Station area). In the WW II time frame, I attended Chicora Grade School for the full first grade and part of the second grade. As WWII brought many people to the Navel Base area, the schools in place had to begin two day sessions. I was in the first session. As a first grader, I walked home many times. From the school, I walked over to and crossed Reynolds Avenue, sometimes stopping at Millers Drug store to get an ice cream cone. I then walked along Reynolds Avenue, crossing over Rivers Avenue to Meeting Street Road. I then walked along Meeting Street Road to Dorchester Avenue. At Dorchester Avenue, I crossed the ACL and Southern main line tracks, the ACL’s single track and on to my home. You can be sure that today, NO first grader would be able to enjoy the adventures of walking home after school. In those days, there were no TV and no TV people pumping out the hazards of living our everyday lives. Crossing those tracks was the best part of going home. I always hoped a train would be coming, while I was at the crossing. Being that it was ‘war time’, I often did see trains as there were many of them. Note to Dave: My family moved to Dorchester Terrace after living near your home on Savannah Highway. We were the first people to live on Seymour Avenue. This was one of the hundreds of new houses being built in Dorchester Terrace and Waylyn for families moving to Charleston for defense work. The double track main lines between Dorchester Crossing and Magnolia tower had at least three road crossing. The road crossings were near level with Meeting and King Street with the exception of Heckermann Avenue. Meeting and King Streets were much lower than the ACL and Southern tracks, making that crossing for vehicles not a good choice. I saw at that crossing, the after effects of an auto and an inbound ACL steam powered passenger train. The train was still there with the auto impounded on the cow catcher – a long ways from the crossing – when we saw it. There also were number of turnouts to serve the industries on both sides of the neck. Some of these have already been previously posted. For this post, I will stay primarily with the main lines. On the Ashley River side, a lot of the industries could easily be seen from King Street Extension. On the Cooper River side those near Meeting Street could readily be seen, with the ones nearer the river being out of sight. There was one industry near the Cooper River that you could not miss, the steel foundry and mill. At night, it always seemed to be on fire. It had a lot of light coming out of the top. On the Cooper River side there was also the SAL main line. The Magnolia Tower and the tracks which it controlled had to be a busy operation. I could only see the tower during the years of WW II. I remember well where the tower was located, but could not see any track from the back seat of my parent’s auto. In my 1950 to 1953 teen years, the tower was no longer there. Since the Union Station building was destroyed by fire (train shed still ok) and not rebuilt, I presume that there was no longer a need for it. From the Magnolia Tower, the Southern had trackage rights into the Charleston Union Station (ACL and Southern jointly owned the station). I remember my dad stopping our auto at the Meeting Street road crossing for trains to pass. Some of these were Passenger trains. Knowing that ACL and Southern had double track main lines at Magnolia junction, also that inbound Southern passenger trains would have to access the ACL tracks helps to have a good idea of how the track connections may have been laid out. The inbound Southern passenger trains would have to turn off of their inbound main track, cross over their outbound main track and later turn into ACL’s inbound track to the Union Station. Southern trains departing the Union Station had to turn off the ACL’s outbound track, cross over the ACL’s inbound track and then later enter their outbound main track. As for ACL, it would have been just a matter of having tower clearance and proceed through the junction. The Southern passenger train(s) later used a passenger car in the area of Line Street for their station and the ACL used the train shed as their City station. Sometime before 1950, ACL stopped all their trains at the North Station – later to be the Charleston Station. This ‘neck’ area industries was (and still is) then a major source of customer’s for all three railroads. We make a number of trips to Charleston each year as we visit family members, have Christmas gatherings and generally stop at the Air Force Base. During December (2008), instead of taking I-26 out, we made a detour by the Battery and White Point Gardens. I made it a point to drive outbound on East Bay Street and access I-26 from Meeting Street. I wanted to see the area around Columbus Street as to what CSX and NS had done to it. I almost missed Columbus Street. I was expecting it to be as it also was, a cross street. The part of Columbus Street that was in front of the old Union Station site was closed. I only saw NS engine’s, however it seems that NS and CSX had built an engine terminal there – taking in the old union station area, the street and the land across from the old union station. I had a camera; I should have turned around and …. Next time I will be ready. Larry @ SCRS
As a young boy, we lived West of the Ashley and often went up to North Station to see the the ACL trains. My father worked for Westvaco and when he went to meetings in New York, he always took the train as well. We were up there a good bit. As we left North Station to go home, we headed south toward Dorchester Rd. and the backside of Pinehave Shopping Center. A new discount store named Millers was opened in that area as well. Now when we got to the Dorchester Rd. intersection, we went to a restaurant that was in the middle of the threeway intersection named Autmans Restaurant. I am actually trying to confirm this. From that point, all of the tracks that you discuss went on into Charleston. Does anybody else remember the passenger car diner that was located between King St. and the Meeting Street extension close to the Darlington Apartment highrise and Magnolia Cemetary?
Larry, Another great post and another trip down memory lane as you bring up something I have not heard in 30 or so years. This time it was Miller Drugs. Jamie
Falcon 4687 - Altman's restaurant was a favorite lunch spot for me. Many Friday's at about noon would find me there having my favorites; salmon croquettes, tomatos and onions over rice, and whatever vegetables struck my fancy. I believe Mrs. Altman was a widow lady who had had that restaurant for years. Too bad that eating place, like so many "mom and pop" places went away. Another spot for the best hamburgers I've ever eaten was Harold's Lounge just about two stone throws away from Altmans on Dorchester Rd. I've taken friends there from all over the country and they too agreed, those were the best or among the best they'd ever had. Trouble(?) was, every so often one of ACL's "butt-heads" (normally) would start batting cars around right outside the back door. I do remember some (2?) passenger cars being spotted at the beer distributors across from the Darlington, but I thought they were there for a model rr club extant at that time. I do not remember a restaurant in a dining car though. I do remember the Dixie Diner on Liberty St. One of those stainless steel diners done up to look like a 1920 - 30's trolley car. Can you imagine the hoorah that would arise if someone wanted to replicate that aspect of life in the "Holy City" today? And Larry, now that you mention it, I do remember that ACL passenger car sitting at the site of the old CUS for years apparently abandoned. That would have been the early-mid 50's, but I don't ever remember any people or autos around it. And I don't think I ever gave any thought to the utility of it, it was just part of the scenery in that area. As a fancier, then as now, of non-franchise drinking/eating establishments (or, in the current PC climate, should that be eating/drinking?), two of my favorite spots were Harry Rabens (with that little Southern yard right behind it) and Jimmy Dengates. During the 60-70's, Southern seemed to do little work at night downtown. The attraction there were some of the Southern guys who rented rooms above the bar. Almost any time of the day or night you'd find one or more in the saloon and I listened to quite a few good railroad stories from the Southern, one of the men had 40 plus years with Southern and was a great repository of stories, especially after the 5th or 6th Michelob. The great thing about Dengates was that it was a short block down from where the SAL crossed Rutledge Ave. SOP for me when I heard a horn (or more especially, one of those Hancock air whistles) was to excuse myself from my friends, leave food and drink on the table and meander up Rutledge to the crossing. I could time it very good to arrive just as the lead engine crossed Rutledge, I think the TT (and city laws) required 15 mph across Meeting, King, and Rutledge. The first close-up look I had at SAL's SDP-35s was pacing them on foot across Rutledge and down to the edge of the Grove St. station platform. That was memorable.
21 FEBRUARY 2009 FALCON 48 AND DAVE. Altman's restaurant. Was this located near Chicora High School - where King, Meeting and Rivers junctioned? For some reason, I do not place the restaurant. Now I do remember the DONUT shop (very good) as well as the Dixie Theater and other stores in the area. FALCON 468 I remember the Pinehaven Shopping Center when it was still fairly new and then over the years as it became the place not to shop. I can also remember when Pinehaven was a medical sanitarium before it was torn down to build the shopping center - hense the name PINEHAVEN. DAVE That passenger car under the CUS shed was still there until about 1954 - maybe longer. Back in the 9th grade, I knew a girl who's mother worked for ACL and had her office in that car. Of course it was no longer being used for a ticket office. Also, was Harold's Lounge one time Bunny's Lounge next to the fire department? Larry @ SCRS.
