Buddy - Thanks for the info on the potato docks. I thought that operation looked too new to date back before the Limehouse bridge. And, since I just read that the 1913 dollar was worth .04 cents in 2005, the impact may well have been closer to a quarter-billion dollars today. The Low country is in fact, still somewhat divorced from the rest of the country even now. However, with the continuing influx of people who have to live within shouting distance of semi-warm salt water, I don't hold out much hope for the Gullah-Geechee culture. On the other hand, the Gullahs are putting up some pretty stiff resistance to a lot of the urbanization. For the Geechees, I know 3 personally, when they go ...? Falcon - Since I don't have a local TT from the ACL years, it's been very hard for me to figure out how the Croghan branch fit into the overall scheme of things. However from TT #2 from the SCL, dd. 12.11.70, it appears that local freight 592 from Savannah to Bennett's yard was allowed two hours to travel the 16 miles between Ravenel to Bennett's. (i.e. Ravenel at 9 am, arrive Bennett's 11 am). This was in the general time slot that Croghan's was worked. Jericho was on the main line in the Jacksonboro area as I recall. I do seem to recall a fertilizer plant on that stretch of ACL main. Perhaps Buddy could enlighten both of us.
falcon468 I know very well the frustration and regret of not asking questions when you had the chance. I believe what you call the “Croghan Route” is really three separate locations. As others have mentioned, the Croghan Branch proper was the former ACL branch running between the ACL mainline at Johns Island SC to Albemarle Point (Folly Road area). The Yonges Island Branch was located about seven miles south of the Johns Island station and ran from Ravenel SC on the ACL mainline to Yonges Island SC. The branchline and its three spurs together totaled approximately 25 miles of track with an ice house at Drainage SC (Hollywood) a depot and shed at Meggetts, and a depot and wharf at Yonges Island. There were 33 produce sheds on the branch and spurs at one time or another. The network was abandoned piecemeal from 1951 to 1976. The south leg of the wye in Ravenel is the only active portion of the branchline remaining and now serves a fertilizer bagging facility. Sadly everything else is gone – save a few rotten ties and abandoned roadbeds cutting through marshland. Jericho is located approximately four miles south of Ravenel on the CSX (former ACL) mainline. The plant site at Jericho is visible from Highway 17 was originally a lumber mill. The site was converted to fertilizer mixing plant in the early 60s. The plant closed in the late 80s. I believe the track servicing the plant were ripped up in the mid 80s. Hope this helps. BH
Ok, thanks, I am square now. I do recall the fertilizer plant and can still see it in my mind. Factually though, when I saw a train on this route, I recall that they were no more than 10-12 cars, max. This would have been in the Stono Park and Rotherwood area, or between Betsy Road and Wappoo Road. I suspect that the train originated and ended back at Bennett Yard after the line was worked. If that is the case, could they have left a cut of cars somewhere else until they came back and picked them up? Incidentally, I have a few, and I mean a few, pictures, but I think they are basically insignificant. They were random shots taken by people unkown to me. I have one though that my dad took from the Hwy 61 viaduct of a steam engine pulling a passenger train, headed northbound. I am in Charleston often with my work, perhaps I could show you some of this.
Falcon 468 - I would think that #592 did local work on the main line between Savannah and Bennett's and then worked the Croghans branch. This would explain the two hours to travel the 16 miles between Ravenel and Bennett's. Not that locals ever observed TT hours at stations. Indeed, most of the times I observed the branch being worked, it never seem to take less than two hours between coming and going at Wappoo Rd. And the fact that the branch train always had a caboose would also seem to argue that 592 (at least in the SCL) years worked Croghans. Also, before the branch was taken up, at least 'til the mid-60's, Johns Island had quite a little yard behind the depot. Often one would see an engine by itself idling behind the depot, left, I take it, because it would've have been no use on the branch. This, coupled with a long line of cars waiting either on the north-bound main, or again, behind the depot, would also indicate that a local was involved. Not that this is fact written in stone, it's just the best that I could manage from observation and that one employee TT.
28 January 2009 Destination: Charleston Union Station (CUS) – part three (3) Atlantic Coast Line: From Moncks Corner to the SY tower / The Speedway. Dave has told about the fast Seaboard freights and ACL also had a speedway(s) in and out of Charleston. From Moncks Corner to the SY junction, ACL (later SCL, now CSX), trains moved and they moved fast. After they crossed the Tail Race Canal Bridge and cleared Moncks Corner, the ‘high side of 79’ was in effect. They moved through Oakley, Strawberry, Mount Holly, Goose Creek, Highland Park and across Remount Road Crossing before beginning to slow for the wye. The Town of Goose Creek began to complain about the speed and threaten to use radar to track the train speeds. I never heard the out come of that “case”. Jamie (CSXDIXIELAND), I’m sure you must have rode across Highland Park Crossing a number of times. That was a good place to watch trains. Here also the Charleston Water Works had a spur down to their plant near the reservoir. That spur track would have been a good place to operate a speeder. I’m not sure just when the spur was last in use, however the track was still in place, overgrown with weeds in 1971. It was here at Highland Park Crossing that my children and I were able to see the Auto Train pass – in the day light. I had a friend who worked with Amtrak at the Charleston Station and we had often talked about the Auto Train and how we hoped to see it pass through sometime. Its schedule through Charleston was the during the early morning hours when there was little or no light – and when it was always sleeping time. One summer morning about 7 AM, I received a telephone call from him with information that the Auto train was running very late, that I had about 20 to 25 minutes to get to a place to see it pass. I told the three oldest kids to get ready as we were leaving shortly for Highland Crossing. We did get there with a few minutes to spare. It was well worth the effort and had we been four to five minutes later, we would have missed seeing the train. Later, I was told that when the train moved through the wye, the SY tower operators could see the brakes smoking and then it was gone – on its way to Florida. Remount Road Crossing was another good place to watch trains – from a vehicle. Here at the crossing, I had seen a number of trains over the years. Two of those times, we were at the right place at the right time. The crossing gates came down and we were in front row seats (first vehicle). One of these was the Tropicana Orange Juice train and the other was the Ringling Brothers and Barnum & Bailey Circus train – both were traveling north. The SY crossing, wye, tower and yards are notes are in the works. This will be a story on its own. This will as it was up to 1953. Very different than now. In the future, I hope to tell about two trips in and out of the ACL’s North Station during WW II. These were to and from Griffin, Georgia via Savannah where we changed stations (ACL / CofG). Larry @ SCRS
Larry, I know the Highland Park Crossing well--in fact I went to school at Fishburne Elementary just about a quarter mile from there. In fact, I spent many days with my pals following that spur into the water works. You are correct it was there in 1971; in fact I believe it was in place most if not all of the decade. I can remember the rails looking "in service" there, but they got paved over at some point when Railroad Avenue was resurfaced. A few times we actually jumped the fence across the spur into the water works but never got close enough to see anything of interest; definitely never saw anything railroad related other than the spur. Always lots of trains on the SCL through the Midland Park and Remount crossings during my time, as there are now on the CSX as well. You are probably already aware of this, but there was also a short spur that came off the ACL/SCL mainline just north of Remount Road. It branched off to the south and turned east into Hanahan, crossing Loftis Road and serving some industries along Loftis and Yeamans Hall Road. There was a large produce outlet there in the early 70s where the spur ended, but I don't ever recall rail service there, I think it was more of an open air market then. However, unlike the water works spur, the Loftis spur did get rail service during my time in Hanahan. Every now and then you would have to stop to wait for a few cars to cross Loftis, delaying my trip to the nearby 7-11 and a refreshing Icee drink. We used to look for signs of old rail buried in the gravel parking lots of the businesses in there; we always suspected the spur crossed Yeamans Hall at one time but never got the proof. And for my useless memory of the day revived by this thread: I can recall Remount Road getting repaved in the mid 1970s. They put in these really long crossing gates to make it impossible for impatient motorists to go around. I also remember that was the first time I had ever witnessed a "center turn lane," something found everywhere these days. But in 1970s Charleston, this was a modern marvel to me: Jamie
28 JAN 2009 Jamie. Yes. I know about the spur at the Loftis / Yeamans Hall Road area. As you know, during WWII Yeamans Hall Road area became a simi-military camp. The U.S. Army built on just about every open lot or land area in between homes. During the war, my uncle worked for the Government somewhere in that Yeamans Hall Road area. At times he would let my brother and I ride out into the area near what I will call a motor pool. By this time I was in the first grade and taking in everthing. I believe a railroad track did cross Yeamans Hall Road. Some of the buildings are (were) still there between 1959 and 1975. A military warehouse was in that area and the spur probably went to that building and to where ever else the Army needed rail service. The old military club house just cross the SAL main line was part of this camp, however the SAL line was too far away from the Remount - Yeamans Hall Road area and ACL was close. Don't carve this information in granite, however. ... By the way, the water works reservoir had some big gators in it - maybe still. Larry @ SCRS
Larry - Yes, the gators are still in the reservoir and have made a roaring comeback in this area. In fact, I believe SC just held it's first open season on gators. It's so funny when the "comeyeahs" encounter a gator in their yard. They don't seem to realize that so many of the new developments are built in swamps or bottoms that have been drained. In the '50's and '60's they were protected by law, "...to harm or molest an alligator" as I remember was a $5000.00 fine and/or jail time. My two encounters were let's just say, a great producer of adrenaline. Another great railroading area in Charleston was in the city limits between East Bay and the Cooper river down to Vendue Range. People today would be surprised at the number of distributors and wholesalers that were located in that area. The maze of tracks in that area was quite astounding. Then, there was Market St. that had it's own little mini-maze of trackage, originally built I believe to serve the vegetable wholesalers who used to take up just about the whole of North Market. And, I believe (and seem to remember from the smell) a coffee roaster on the south side of Market that also had a spur. The Southern of course came down into town at just about geographical dead center. I know they delivered cars of newsprint to the "Post & Courier" but I'm no too sure of any of their other customers. They did have a spur to the dock area on the Cooper, but I'm not clear anymore about where they crossed Meeting and East Bay streets. I am certain that they were the only rr to serve the "banana docks" (United Fruit if I remember correctly). When a banana boat was in port, you could watch their Alco's drag strings of cars to north of Line St. They would also leave a few on what I took to be an interchange(s) with the ACL and SAL. Of course most of the switching took place after dark, but it was not too unusual to see engines of the various roads working the area during the day.
Now that you bring this up, I have a clear memory of almost all of the tracts that you mentioned in and around the market and down on the wharf area. It was in that area that I spoke of when I saw the smoldering box car the day after the big wharf fire. Had to have been in the mid-1950's. (I also recall seeing a steam locomotive train while at old North Station.) I also recall, from an earlier post, I think from Buddy Hill, about rail operations in the "neck" portion of the city. That is the area where ESSO had their facilities and the fertilizer plant had the smokestack with the flame exposed out the top. We would go up Rivers Avenue, cross over the rail viaduct, close to where what was known as the GEX store, and I always saw what every model railroader of that time had. It was a a vertical post/stantion, with a horizonal crossbeam attached. From that, a series of short cables or lines dangled down such as to let any workers who might be on top of a boxcar (working the brake or tending to ice, doors, etc) and not paying attention to get ready to duck as they were headed under an overpass. It was a warning device of sometype. I do not know what this was called; however, I saw it there and only there. Anyhow, this is a fun discussion and, speaking for myself, very educational.
I was going to mention the GEX store in an earlier post but I did not think anyone else would remember it. That place was probably gone by the time I was in first grade! Jamie
Falcon486 - just give a shout the next time you head this way - I have maps etc that I can bring. I've really enjoyed the recent exchanges. The structure you described is a telltale. Dave - I believe the Southern track to the banana pier branched off near the Sou. warehouses on John or Mary Street. At that point it curved toward the Cooper River traveling down Chapel Street. It then crossed East Bay St. right at the foot of the twin ACL freight houses - crossing the SAL line that paralleled that stretch of East Bay St. In fact there is a small remnant of the Sou track remaining in what could be described as a small park located at the East Bay/Chapel Street intersection. I have a valuation map that shows all of the downtown trackage referenced in the previous messages. I'll will try to post a copy so others not familiar with the area can follow along. BH
Dave - Heres a link to a map showing the location of the civil war era C&S Rwy bridge across the Ashley River - courtesy of the national archives. http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/map_item.pl
Dave - Sorry about the bad link in my previous response - I see that it does not work. As luck would have it, the previous map was prepared by "Billy Yank" and was incomplete only showing the C&S trackage up to the Ashley River Bridge. Here is a link to a better map prepared by Confederate forces. It shows the trackage crossing the river and connecting to the South Carolina railroad track in the center of the peninsula. Link follows: Historic Maps Confederate States of America. Army. Corps of Engineers. from 1895
Buddy - Thanks for both efforts, the second one works just fine. I believe Mr. McNab is following this thread, but I'll send him an e-mail anyway. Again, thanks. Now, can anyone give me any information on the North Charleston Terminal Railway? As far as I can figure tracks for this company, apparently owned by both ACL and SOU, had extensive trackage on the west side of King St. Extension. Also, I believe there was some amount of NCT trackage in the north east corner of North Charleston, near the Hanahan/Remount Rd. area. As I may have previously mentioned, I worked for a company that was worked by both the ACL and SOU on the same trackage. Have seen printed references to such a company, but since has been lost to me. Any one have any info.?
I did a Google search and found that there is an address and phone number listed that may help: North Charleston Railway Terminal Co 1090 Mill Rd North Charleston, SC 29406 (843) 744-7315 That address is right along the NS/CSX interchage near the paper mill. Jamie
30 January 2009 Good morning Dave. That area west of King Street Extension between the six mile viaduct and Heriot Street was the place for watching industrial switching operations. My problem was I had to see what I could, while being in a moving vehicle. Over the many years, I passed by there - from the spring of 1942 until ..., this was an area I always liked to ride by. From steam switch engines, to Alco RS units moving cars, the action was there - day and night. I remember the two tracks that paralleled King Street Ext. always seemed to need major repair. The many turn out tracks that headed toward Ashley River for the fertilizer plants, Coppers and others. That flame from a tall smoke stack, the large pile of sulfur, Coppers creosoting operations, etc. always provided interest for me. I always believed that Southern and ACL owned those tracks with ACL's being on the river side (which is now their primary line). However, I have copies of some papers where either Southern or ACL were requesting trackage rights from SAL. This seemed strange as SAL is on the Cooper (opposite) River sideof the neck and if they owned track on the Ashley River side, then they would also need trackage rights from Southern and or ACL to access the Ashley side. I believe there were three King Street Ext. rail crossings from the ACL and Southern main lines to access the area. One of those crossings was where most of the rail traffic crossed (and also blocked the most vehicle traffic). I believe Bakers Hospital is now located about where one of the fertilizer plants was located. Larry @ SCRS
Dave - Last comment on the C&S Ashley River Bridge: I just found a reference to a book about the C&S and the civil war. The book was written by H. David Stone, Jr. and is titled - "Vital Rails The Charleston & Savannah Railroad and the Civil War in Coastal South Carolina". Available from Amazon.com for $30+. Several references to the Ashley River bridge. Your contact may want to check it out.
SCRS, No other information here other than I too recall all of those industries along the Ashley that you cited. I lived West of the Ashley and went to church on Rutledge Ave. As I -26 was being built torward town, my day and I would often take the long way, that is over the Hwy 7 bridge and get on the new portion of I-26 that ended up at the Rutledge Ave./Citadel exit. We did that so we could take a chance on seeing a little rail action. I recall that there was also some type of haunted house in that area, which I recall as Three Mile Viaduct. Anyhow, all of those industries were there and despite my middle age memory, I can still see. That is in the area that I recall the "telltale". During WWII, my father told me that the Army had a discharge point for wounded soldiers located at what is known as Stark Industrial Yard. From what I heard, hospital ships went that far up the Ashley River for this discharge. I think trains were involved but not sure. While at Old North Station, during the war, my parents met an Army couple and gave them the use of their house on Tradd St. for a period of time. My parents stayed with my grandfather on Ashley Ave. until the other couple moved on. They stayed in touch with each other, Christmas Cards and notes, throughout my youth. Times were different then. I will check my fathers diaries for all of this, which date back to the 1920's and chronical alot of Charleston train activity. Buddy, I was contacted about four years ago by David Salter who asked my permission to publish some of my fathers writings/notes, on an ACL train movement between Charleston and Florida. I spoke to David about this within the last 30 days and he said that this was published in Lines South a couple of years back. I still have the hand printed notes taken by my dad but always wanted to see the writeup. Any help would be appreciated. Along those lines, I also spoke to the widow of Sam Appleby, Grace, recently, in fact that is why I called David Salter. He is the guardian for all of the work that noted SAL historian Sam Appleby did on the SAL. David indicated that he is now 80 years old and he has done nothing with that collection. I have spoken to a representative of the digital collection of pictures at USC, which by the way has all of the SC depots, old and new, for all rail lines, available on the internet, about this and would like to make a case for acquiring that work such that it can be properly archived. In fact they have pictures of all of the former operating lines and I found this very enjoyable, really fantastic. I was able to see a picture of Old North Station, where I first got my start in this discussion!
31 January 2009 Falcon468 and others. I remember well the present of Stark Army Hospital during WW II. Also again and in the 1950 to 1953 years. It was still in place and for the most part consisted of empty buildings. This was about the time the old Army Hospital area became Stark Industrial Park. Yes. There was an Ashley River dock for Stark Army Hospital. I did not see any hospital ships there, but that was why it was built. I did see one hospital ship arrive in Charleston Harbor, anchor over night and was told that it would probably move up the Ashley River the next morning, to the Stark Hospital Dock. During my ‘roving North Charleston bicycle days’ (1951 – 1952), I and some of my friends ‘toured the Stark area’. The hospital buildings were still intact and almost were empty. The dock was still in place, in bad condition and blocked off to prevent entry. It was not a very wide dock, but could have handle vehicles. ACL had the best rail service into the hospital. However, Southern also made a 'make do' off loading area for patients. I was not aware that ACL served the hospital until that bike tour took place. The ACL had three long stub end tracks, with bumpers and extended out to a wye. Stark Army Hospital was also more than just a hospital. Some of these sidings were probably also used for troop train operations. This ACL rail line was not extended across Dorchester Avenue until well after WW II. Just for a note here at this time, Dorchester Avenue was widened to four lanes from Rivers avenue to the Stark Hospital as the hospital was being built. Just past the guard gate (in the middle of Dorchester Avenue), the pavement returned to two lanes, then to a dirt road before crossing the ACL main line tracks. Southern had their off loading area at the Dorchester Avenue crossing. This I did see from when it was being prepared for use and a number of times during it use. It really was a quickly, built gravel road along side of the east bound main between Dorchester Avenue and to about Cosgrove Avenue. The trains would clear the crossing and stop, then the ambulances would back in along side the train. As the line of ambulances received all the patients, they would pull out and head for Stark Army Hospital. Other ambulances would back in and take their place. From what I remember, this took place after D Day 1944. The ACL was probably handling a lot of wounded also. Larry @ SCRS
Jamie - Thanks for the info. Don't know why simple solutions sometimes fail me, but they do. Buddy - Thanks for the additional info. I haven't had time to check my e-mail but I would imagine Mr. McNab will be happy to have it also. However, I'm glad that my memory of reading about that bridge was in fact correct, even tho' I couldn't remember the source. Again, thanks. I had an aunt who was a nurse at Stark, I would guess about 1947-48, I know that we use to sometimes pick her up after work. I really don't remember anything railroad, I do remember a lot of single story white painted buildings. As I related earlier, one of my first jobs was in the Charleston Heights area for a company that was a heavy user of rail service. While most of my job was office related, I spent quite a lot of time "on the yard." When the plant manager found out I was interested in and knowledgeable about railroads, he gave me the task of coordinating rail service and writing switch lists for the ACL and SOU. I was therefore able to watch a lot of the action in the Five Mile area while getting paid for it. Another part of the job was to carry company mail to the main office located downtown which meant a trip down King St. Extension and back up Meeting St. Extension. There was a beer distributor across from the (then called) Darlington apartments. One morning, turning on to Meeting St. Ext., I saw two freshly painted insulated cars from the ACL and SAL at the distributors, both bright silver, the SAL lettered in red and the ACL lettered in purple. I have found photos of ACL insulated cars and saw the MDC model thereof, but they were all lettered in black. I have never been able to confirm what my eyes told me that morning. Needless to say, that experience led me to a 40+ year interest in the transport of beer by rail. Can anyone help me in this question?
