18 March 2009 Good morning all. Here are some photo's of ACL steam at CUS / From the Bud Law's Collection. Fallen Flag Steam - RailImages.com Larry @ SCRS
Larry - Although your question about the SAL/SOU tower was directed at Buddy, I can tell you that there was in fact a tower (looked to be a 1-man type) at the crossing in peninsular Charleston. It was abandoned for many years but was still visible from one of the viaducts on the Crosstown route into the late sixties at least. Somewhere on the internet is a photo of the tower in color. I believe it was called Bay Tower. Somewhere I have a 1953 SOU T/T that tells Southern crews the procedure for crossing the SAL at that point. AIIRC there was no mention of an oeprator then, just which buttons to push and lights to wait for clearance. AFAIK, it was called Bay Tower.
Just received my copy of "Lines South" (quarterly publication of the ACL/SAL HS) yesterday. If you've followed this thread with any interest at all, I can recommend you getting a copy for a one page article by W.P. McCoy titled 'The Train 86 Show at Barrellville, S.C..' Not that the rest of the issue isn't very, very good, but his account gives an indication of how the Seaboard railroaded on the "EC" line.
22 MARCH 2009 I will have to work out a way to see and read that article about SAL in Barrelville. It really should be interesting as I (we) traveled throught Barrelville each time we went to Edisto Island. The main line track route could still easily be seen then however, by now it would be overgrown with trees and brush. Larry @ SCRS
Dang Larry I never did circle back and send that email. Will need to add to my lengthy railroad-related TODO list. Jamie
Larry - The Great Escape hobby shops in both Greenville and Spartanburg as well as New Brookland in West Columbia handle OTC sales of "Lines South." It is also available as part of a membership in the ACL/SAL Historical Society. I can highly recommend it for fans and modelers of ACL, SAL and associated lines, as well as occasional parts of articles on other Southern roads such as the original NS, FEC, etc. While I have been through Barrellville several times, I never saw a train there. One of my favorite "scenic" SAL road crossing in this area was at Chisholm Rd. on Johns Island, this was just before the Second Stono River bridge. For the sheer number of trains in a short period of time, DuPont's still has that record in my book, especially from 9 p.m. to mid-night.
25 March 2009 Dave. I very seldom go to The Great Excape in Greenville as this one is 90% 'sometime' other than trains, so was not aware that they had "Lines South" for sale. I will stop by and check them out. Larry @ SCRS
Larry - Got your p.m. of the 23rd, but continually got an error message. In any case my e-mail is - jojonesdavid@aol.com. I do have a question about Seaboard's operations on the Charleston - Savannah segment of the EC, while I know that Nos. 66 and 67 were the TT'd local freights - did work rules allow any of the other freights to pickup and set off cars? Any info on this subject would be greatly appreciated. I've finally finished the scenery and trackwork on the layout (no backdrops yet and still a couple sections of #*@@! track), and I'm finally ready to try and start some TT operation. So any info would be very helpful.
I just saw in a Charleston history book where a building (about where the fountian is located on the downtown waterfront) burned in June 1955. I assume that this is the date of the large wharf fire that took out a lot of rolling stock that was on the tracks in that area. I referenced this in a much earlier post, as I still recall (age 3 at the time) a wood boxcar still smoldering at the trucks. Certainly there has to be some record of this fire as I would deem it significant. In a manner of speaking, it might have altered tracks and operations in that area on a permanent basis for all three railroads. Additionally, on another subject, I would like to inquire as to whether or not either the ACL or SAL operated "streamlined skirted" passenger engines.
Falcon468 - The Seaboard had 3 Pacific type engines; #865, #867, and #868 were streamlined for service on the "Silver Meteor" between Jacksonville and Tampa. Also, the SAL's original "motors", #2027 and 2028 kept their skirting until the late 1940's. As for the ACL, AFAIK the closest thing they had to streamlined steam were the very modern R-1 class, #1800 - 1811. However, to the best of my knowledge, none of ACL's steamers had skirts. Southern also had at least one streamlined Ps-4, the #1380 which was assigned to the "Tennessean" between Washington D.C. and Monroe VA. They may have had others with which I'm not familiar.
09 APRIL 2009 Ok. I found my referance to the SAL and Southern trackage rights on the Ashley side of King Street extention: (... I always believed that Southern and ACL owned those tracks with ACL's being on the river side (which is now their primary line). However, I have copies of some papers where SAL was requesting trackage rights from SOUTHERN). This seemed strange as SAL is primarily on the Cooper (opposite) River side of the neck. If they did own track on the Ashley or wanted to just access the Ashley River side, then they would need trackage rights from Southern and or ACL to access the Ashley side. It is dated in the year of 1917. SAL needed to service the VC Chemical plants and others with joint trackage. It consists of about 15 pages with all the legal information, plus who (SAL or SOU) takes of what, if what get broken. Buddy Hill I also found the Charleston Paper article (published about two years ago) that you and two others had given the information to the writer, about the SAL's line in the Charleston area. That is a good article. That picture of the train at the Grove Street Station is quite small. It would be good to see a larger one. I also found a picture that I took from the our auto while going up the original Cooper River bridge - of where the Union Station was located (my wife was driving). The shed and tracks had been removed, however the platforms were still in place Larry @ SCRS
Larry - The plant I worked for in the 1960's was located just north of the VC spur, which also had a siding into B.L. Montague's facility. As best as I can recall, engines of both ACL and SOU used any track on the west side of King St. extension to service all of the industries between the extension and the Ashley River. Between Meeting and King street extensions, there were just too many tracks and switches for me to be able to differentiate whose engines were on whose tracks. And, to confuse things further, while ACL and SAL had trackage on the Cooper River, SOU served both the center of the peninsula and the Cooper River side. While I never saw an SAL engine west of Spruill and/or Meeting St. Ext., I know that the SAL did leave our Florida cars at Tuxbury on the west side of Meeting St. Ext. for final delivery by the ACL.
Larry - No problem regarding the SAL Grove Street Station station. I still have a pdf copy on my computer and can email you the same if you can provide your email address. Just shoot an email to palmettoLTD@hotmail.com. Regarding the SAL-SOU-ACL trackage rights question. Would it be possible to get a copy of the agreement? I've been in contact with a researcher/author that is in the process of writing a book on rail operations serving Charleston area phosphate mines and fertilizer plants. Everything he has uncovered to date indicates the SAL obtained trackage rights from the Southern (over the objections of the ACL) to gain access to the fertilizer plants on the Ashley River. Your statement that "the SAL needed to service the VC Chemical plants and others" suggests that it was the SAL that needed trackage rights rather than the Sou (or ACL).
I've just completed an internet search for the item I saw some time ago concerning SAL's request to Southern to service a (singular) chemical plant (not named) that had an existing Southern spur here in Charleston. Of course I failed to find said item, and really, at the time, did not pay particular attention to it, not being of tremendous interest to me. I do not remember (if I even read it), the outcome of the application. It did stick in my mind however, how peculiar it was that Seaboard, whose boast that it was funded by Southern men with Southern capital, would ask either of the "Morgan roads" (ACL and SOU) for any trackage rights or other favors. However, there was that joint trackage deal between Cary and Raleigh, N.C. Wonder if it's possible that prior to the merger talks (1958), that SAL did in fact work the VC and/or other spurs west of Meeting St. Extension?
I was in Detroit on Wednesday and traveld by car to Toledo, Ohio for a business meeting yesterday, Thursday. Earlier, back in January, I posted a note to this thread discussing what was later identified by Buddy Hill as a "telltail". Again, this was a stantion type structure with dangling cables that was placed before bridge overhangs to let boxcar railmen know that they were approaching a viaduct and that they should pay attention. It was a warning device. I have not seen one in say, 40 years. Well that was until yesterday. There it was on the Union Pacific main (I think, as there were many UP autorack cars on the track) as it approached Toledo. The specific spot was I-75 and Monroe, MI. I will tell you that it was rusted, disfigured and bent; however, despite its age, it still had three cables. I wish I could have taken a picture. Additionally, as I waited for my plane at the Detroit Airport, I look up and see a Norfolr Southern engine with two cars and a caboose go cruising by at 45 MPH. A caboose. I fully recognize that this has little to do with the original post, but in a manner of speaking, it does, as all of these things generally represent rail road operations of an earlier time. As armchair historians to this "hobby", many never get to see a one day throwback to the past like I did. I could not wait to post this. Hope all is well.
Falcon468 - Well, you're two up on me. First of all, I've never seen a "tell tail" to the best of my memory. And, secondly, the last cab I saw was approximately 25 years ago - but it was an ACL "woodie" on the Croghan's branch, along with two U-18B's. Absolutely no need to apologize either. Railroads from the beginning are part of a continuum, I compare it to the delta of a mighty river with many different, but interesting mainstreams, sloughs, back-waters and creeks. While this thread has been on the interesting competition between three railroads serving the same market area, customers, and businesses, it could have as easily been between fans of the two-footers serving the slate trade in Maine or modellers of those Aussie ore-hauling railroads (you know - 18,000 ton ore trains, 5 or 6 3,000-4,000 hp diesels, thousands of ore cars, and not a box car or intermodal in sight). Actually, the entire state of South Carolina has had a lot of railroading that really has disappeared without trace or comment. Larry, you're up there in Mauldin which if memory serves me right was on the Greenville branch of the C&WC which was served by a diesel powered mixed train 'til 1953 - 55 (?) Now there's a railroad which could be modelled diesel for diesel. And, I believe that the Georgia & Florida (now Southern) ran not too far from Mauldin. And with, as I recall, two SW-? and 6 GP-7's could also be done very well diesel for diesel. The CN&L along with the C&WC, a sister road under the ACL umbrella - same paint scheme as for ACL, just sans the ACL herald. The Greenville & Northern, AFAIK, two GE 45 tonners and some rather strange looking corrugated metal side boxcars. I believe S.C.L. Man told me that his dad worked for the Piedmont & Northern, which Atlas is covering with RS-3's and C-420's in HO and possibly N scale as well. I don't know much about the Lancaster & Chester, except for their ties to the textile industry and having some very pretty blue and white box cars. Then, there was the Argent Lumber Co. Three-foot gauge cabbage-stacked locomotives, wet swamp logging, and at least in part, built on stilts through the Savannah River swamps. I believe it's nickname was the "swamp rat." So, if this story is going to be told, it will probably be up to us and kindred spirits to make it so.
01 MAY 2009 Good morning all. My desktop processor has been down for some three weeks (virus) and I have to work off a lap top (not good for me). Hope to be back up and operating normally before long. Buddy. If you will e-mail me a fax number, I will go ahead and sent you copies of the SAL - SOU trackage agreement. Larry @ SRS
Larry - Good to hear from you. I've attempted to e-mail you several times and continually got an error message. Hurry back.
13 MAY 2009 I was in Charleston this past Sunday and Monday - visiting my wife's mother. I picked up her Sunday morning paper and the head line was "RAIL OR NO RAIL". It was a good story. From a upstate visitor's view point, the Rail needs to win out. There was a map of the area, which I really studied and worked into my memory banks as to where the rails had accessed the old Navel Base in the past. Perhaps - and it is possible that a type of a 'Los Angeles Trench' could be built from the currently owned NS and CSX right of way in the neck under Meeting and the other streets to access the old base. Just a thought. Larry
Larry - Glad to have you back. Have been following the epic of the new terminal myself with the question for all except the last two months - "Where's the rail?" The 'powers-that-be' around here still have their brains and other parts of their anatomy firmly stuck in that 40's-60's mold of "where do we put the road(s)." Thankfully the mayor of North Charleston has gotten himself a severe case of NIMBY-ism. Normally I disagree with same, but North Charleston has had to bear an inordinate share of the "improvements" done around here. If the two roads (NS and CSX) can overlook their parochial concerns, it would be a boon for rail traffic and highway congestion both. My two SAL E-7's arrived this past Monday, don't really have a place to run them but hope to use my layout as a diorama for some photos of TT-23/#280 as I remember them. The length of those two has me even looking outside (in the yard) for some place to put at least one of those long SAL straight-aways.
