You originally asked a question on page one "Will Snubbing the Pre-Order System Get Us the Products We Want?". 14 pages and 280 replies later the answers may not have been what you where hoping for. Your desire to support preordering is your right and doesnt make you any less of a person. Other people shunning the preorder system is their right too. It doesnt make them any less of a person either. I suppose we will just have to wait it out and see if the manufacturers continue to put such a high value on such a system. The hobby itself will exist either way...just maybe not the way some people want it to. I for one will continue to shun the preorder system and will continue to support my hobby addiction by whatever means remain. I see this thread getting locked soon. It happens all the time. Someone wants a thread locked so the name calling starts. Personally...I think the thread should continue. There is a lot of good info being put forth.
Be careful of what you ask for! The late John Coots was quite wealthy before he launched his N Scale of Nev. Long ago, I asked for his views on the N scale world at a local LHS. One of his remarks I remember well was that you had to love trains to stay in the biz because you weren't going to make much money at it. He wasn't in pre-order mode IIRC but the result for us was largely the same, short runs with no availability some time after a product was announced. There were a couple of re-runs but only a couple. Suppose you buy an existing N scale company. You'd probably have to also buy the HO and O portions as well. So you not only get the decisions to make in those worlds (not the same for each) but also get three flavors of critics and trolls. Are all your important employees sticking with the unknown you, especially when your plan is not to maximize profitability but to do things that may not coincide with that? What are your choices to run what products? What if/when you guess wrong/lose money X times? You have people working for you that have families to feed, plus taxes, building and/or equipment leases, insurance, vendors to pay, advertising/promotion, you name it. Would you be able to survive the next recession when the banks pull your credit line? Also consider that over 70% of people that come into large sums will file for bankruptcy after a few years. No pressure, hey? Better to learn and earn your way with a startup, I think, with a couple of experienced train biz folks invested as well.
A friend with an online business always says, "the best way to make a small fortune with a hobby business is to start with a large fortune."
And I have heard that same quote spoken about a number of other businesses. But I figure this way, Atlas, Bachmann and Kato are some of the biggest companies in the model RR industry and none of them started with a large fortune. And come to think of it, none of them use the preorder system either. Hmmmmmmmm, maybe something to ponder.
Times have vastly changed since these companies were founded. At one time model railroading was a more profitable business due to shear numbers of participants. Currently more participants are RTR folks with more interest in only running trains than before. More demands on proto RTR stuff... not much tolerance for foobie fantasy stuff. Used to be manufacturers could sell a generic fantasy scheme F unit and a modeler would adapt it to their railroad by detailing, painting etc. Look at the kit market for rolling stock as an example... time involved in building kits is a factor in their decline... value of time favors RTR items and higher detail in models. Sent from my SM-G530T using Tapatalk
I agree! It's been a great discussion, and I don't think it has descended into name-calling. Far from it. There have been reasonable comments on either side of the topic. And I wasn't looking for a specific "answer". Just trying to prompt a healthy discussion on the topic, which is what I think we have achieved here. And it's not so much a "desire to support preordering" as is it an acceptance of the nature of things currently. A decision not to support the current system only ends up hurting me because some of what is currently coming out is stuff that I want or have been looking for for some time. I'm just shooting myself in the foot by not taking advantage of the opportunities. For those that already have what they need, then the discussion is kind of moot for them. It's easy for them to 'take a stand' because they don't need or want anything currently in the pipeline. But I'll wager that if something that many have long desired is announced and preording begins, many will change their tune. Look what happened with the recent Pacific and K-4 releases. Lot's of interest, even from the old-timers who wouldn't have normally been interested in ordering.
Is this really a good comparison? They were not fishing for enough interest to produce an item. Quite differently from too many other products, the K-4 was almost a bang-bang situation of announcement and product hitting the market. It was not a proposal nor vaporware. We had here a definite 'it is coming'. If there is to be any pre-ordering, this is an example of how it should happen- when we know as a certainty it is real, and consumers will not be waiting, waiting, wondering, waiting....
Sorry George, that was meant more affectionately than critically. My apologies if that was taken any other way.
Fair enough Boxcab. Still, much of what is coming out is limited time only. If you don't get in on the ground floor you'll be scrambling to get it on eBay when stock runs dry a few months later. My preferred e-tailer would still prefer you "Reserve" your order because there is no guarantee that there will be any stock left after fulfilling preorders, even from makers like Kato or MP.
Yes. But that is not strictly the way you must get their products. They do regularly hit the retailers shelves as in stock items, as their runs produce enough to remain available.
+1 They did the same with the EM1. Caught me off guard as I was expecting a time lag to save up for one. But they announced it with the notation "shipping now" and within 3-4 weeks it was on LHS shelves. Same with the K4. In fact the pundits of The Railwire forum were trashing the K4 before they knew that they were here. Then they found out that guys over on the Trainboard forum already had them and were raving about them. OOOPS!
No prob Glennac...appology accepted. I just took it literally...my fault on that point. Its all good.
Some pre-orders seem to be less about... deciding whether or not to manufacture... as opposed to how many of each will we make to satisfy demand. I'm much more concerned about the... "let's see if there is enough interest" before they actually decide to go ahead with production. Sent from my SM-G530T using Tapatalk
With the lathe and drill press I own... I can/could make my own wheels/axles and gears. It would take time and effort, but if I had to... I guess I would. As for the couplers, I could make a mold and make "dummy" couplers... "working couplers" more than likely would give me some issues... but, that's not the point I was trying to make. With the 3D Printing revolution going on today... companies are going to have to adjust their practices or risk following the dinosaurs. e.g.-look at Kodak and Polaroid and what happened with digital cameras. They had to adjust from making film... to making cameras and other things. Polaroid even makes PC tablets right now!!! JMS
Came across an old thread that kind of touched on this topic all the way back in 2008. An interesting read from those who populated these forums at that time. Why Limited Runs? Why?
I had an interesting email conversation with Kirk at Intermountain. The difficulties of getting slots of production time at the factory in China is a HUGE limiting factor as the factory sets a minimum production quantity for each tooling setup. So, to protect themselves, they look to the preorder system to determine the demand before they leap off the bridge and produce. My specific inquiry was about the announced UTLX 8000 gallon tank cars, of which I have an outstanding preorder at my LHS. In this case, However, "This car was scheduled quite awhile ago but when the production run began, the tooling cracked so needed replaced. This new tooling, which is being done here in Longmont, is just about complete." So, the factory had the tooling and got a start, oops! it broke. And back to square one. But, and Kirk gave me permission to post this, the manufacturer requires a minimum quantity of manufacture before they will even consider production. So the company is stuck between the need to have sufficient demand through the preorder system and an overseas production facility that has a huge level of control over the process. So we, as hobbyists getting our products from overseas factories, are stuck with the preorder system or no products. Which is just the cold reality of todays manufacturing. Dang. About the only fix I can imagine is regaining manufacturing here, which will require large investments of equipment. And, before that HUGE changes in the tax and regulatory nightmare we now have here. And even with all that, a preorder requirement will probably still be in place for the foreseeable future. So, still patiently waiting for these cars, because I know that IMRR will produce an excellent model.
These threads about limited runs and pre-ordering have been 'hot-button' topics on several boards for the past 10 years. Most model railroaders prefer to have items announced and delivered... no speculation as to whether the items are being 'test' marketed. The topics have become more and more prevalent since the delays and cancellation of announced items has increased. 20 years ago... something announced would 'rarely' be cancelled. If there was a cancelled product, the backlash would not have been so widely advertised because the internet and model train forums were scarce. IIRC... the cancelled products were usually... BRASS... which required pre-orders and sometimes pre-payment.
