There's more to photography than shooting models indoors, like railfanning the prototypes. The DSLR range of available lenses allow for some faster optics that can not be had with point and shoot. </font>[/QUOTE]You might be surprised. The Leica optics in the Lumix offer 2.8 over the entire focal range
That Panasonic falls into the new category called SLR-like. The optics used in that camera is very comparable to some SLR lenses. However, what sets SLRs apart from P&S is the ability to view the subject through the same lens that will expose the film (sensor) with the naked eye. P&S cameras have the offset view finders and tend to lead to accidental decapitations and the likes of. What sets these DSLR-like cameras apart from the P&S is the ability to view the subject from the lens but with one big difference; that is the tiny electronic viewfinder that displays what the sensor picks up (which is another difference that can affect things in other ways because it is always exposed). It does a good job of mimicking what a SLR does and for all intense purposes works just fine, but doesn’t not replace all the features of a traditional (D)SLR. In addition, these DSLR-like cameras are designed with many SLR features/function packaged into a more affordable price. None of this means one is better than the other; just they are suited for different needs. Example, Canon is releasing the D5 which is a full frame DSLR (desired by some) and appears to a great stepup form the 20D because of the sensore size and the increased pixel. However, many are disappointed because it is slower than the 20D (3fps vs 5fps), yet others like it because it fits their needs (model work, lanscape, etc, not sports). PS here is dpreview of the camera and scored high http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonicfz20/. Personally think SLR is only worth it if Photography is a hobby and save extra $$$ for some model trains! :-D
Also, this site from Canon does a good job explaining the pluses of SLR over P&S. http://www.canon.co.jp/Imaging/enjoydslr/index.html
I think i'd have to go with that. I use a Fuji S7000, which is in that 'SLR-Like' category as well, while i'd have loved to get a camera with chageable lenses and less write delay (not one of the S7000's stong points) paying three times the cost for a DSLR, plus lenses etc etc was just not an option. While I like getting out & railfanning, photography is not my hobby it's a tool I use in my hobby. Maybe in a couple of years either the gap between DSLR and 'SLR-Like' will have closed more, or the second hand DSLR market will be larger making that a more attractive proposition. For the moment i'm happy with what I have (but 2fps sounds very cool! )
That used to be the case. The Panasonic Lumix camera's DMC, FZ20, and FZ30 pretty much throw water on every aspect of that viewpoint. I guess that was the point of this thread. There are camera's being developed that are challenging what we used to think. Throw in the fact that are a couple of discovered drawbacks to Digitals SLR's and I think you will see camera designers working hard to really come up with somehting different. The Lumix is maybe just the first of many that will challenge traditional thinking. My point is. That many of the functions that you think you needed to buy a DSLR are available on a camera that can cost you a thousand less then you thought.
Dan, I'm glad you are proud of your camera, but you're starting to sound like a Panasonic salesman. Just look at the specs on the dpreview site. Your camera has VERY impressive specs, but even the old Digital Rebel keeps up and is available for not much more than yours. (Look at the "Timings and Sizes" section to see some of the more significant advantages a DSLR offers) It doesn't seem that anyone here is arguing the merits of the Panasonic...but you keep trying to sell it against a DSLR? You don't have to, it's much cheaper and provides excellent quality and features for the money. Leave it at that.
Dan, I'm familiar with the Lumix, and the Canon counterpart, the S2 IS, as I bought the latter for one of my daughters. Great cameras! Nearly the class of DSLRs. Almost good enough for the work I sometimes have to do. I called it a P & S only because it was convenient to do so. I've had a chance to compare images on my computer. Not as sharp. Not as much color depth. Some chromatic aberation. As I said, they are closing the gap. But it's still there.
Sorry for sounding like a salesman. It is not about the brand of camera, but the awareness that some things are happening on the camera front. Almost every immediate response incorporated some percieved idea that a point and shoot could not do what a DSLR's can do. True there is a gap, but a gap only a professional photographer or camera hobbyist should be prepared to pay for. There are many guys out there sitting back thinking they might need to invest $1500 in a camera to take model web pictures. The truth is they don't and that is what I am passionate about. I mentioned the Lumix because that is the camera I chose to go with and am familiar with. This was not about my choice in camera, it was more about, WOW look at what is being made available. I'm betting a few people reading this (judging from the responses) may not have know what progress has taken place in point and click cameras. Features that were the domain of DSRL's are now being offer on lower priced camera's, and to some maybe this is an enlightenment.
Dan, I don't think we're arguing the merits of the Pany. There are definite gaps between P&Ss and DSLRs. Although you say the gap is closing, perhaps, but do understand that as technology advances in the P&S arena, the technology also advances in the DSLR arena. DSLRs are not going to stand still while the P&Ss catch up. There are definitely things that DSLRs will win hands down over a P&S, no matter what. Sensor size is critical in determining how big the photon sites are. The more photon sites you pack together the more cross-talk noise you introduce (think of radio stations too close to each other). This shows up as noise and it's very obvious in P&S cameras. I'm not a DSLR snob as I have and use both types of camera depending on the situation but before I got my D70, I used to think like you. How much of a difference can there be? I don't need a DSLR! I was absolutely content with the photos from my Coolpix but once I saw what the D70 can do, I was literally blown away. BTW, don't confuse continuous burst mode (fps) with shutter lag. You can have a 3 fps camera with terrible shutter lag.
I didn't think I was arguing at all, and I sure am not going to get in a debate about a $500 Lumix and a $3800 DSLR. I also think people are underestimating what is begining to take place on the camera market. I think technology will eclipse the DSLR. It simply won't be needed. I define a digital SLR as camera that has a mirror that flips up out of the way of the sensor. I really think that digital technology will find away around that. At that point they won't be SLR's anymore. They will be professional digitials Time will tell.
Dan: What are the differences between the Panasonic Lumix 20 and 30 cameras. I was learning toward the 8P Lumix. I saw both at Woffe's Camera in South Florida yesterday afternoon. How is the macro feature on the camera. ?Depth of field (DOF)? Please advise.... Thanks... Stay cool and run steam....
Hi Bob. I actually bought the 30, but after having it for a couple of days I returned for the 20. This was a very difficult decision to make as I really like the 30. It was a great camera, but I found it cumbersome for model work. The lens is long and heavy. I was drawn by the 8 Mpix, but realized that wouldn't matter much if I couldn't take very many layout photo's with it. When you place the camera flat on the layout you can't rotate the focus ring without lifting the camera off the layout. NOT good if you want to use the Helicon software. The 20 is designed so that even when the camera is flat on the layout, there is clearance to move the focusing ring. This is a real plus for layout work. As I am not a professional and am not looking to contribute to MR, I thought the 5 Mpix of the 20 would be fine for the forum photo's I do. You asked me how I was able to take photos without a tripod and shutter release and still use the Helicon software. The DMC 20 with its anti camera shake hardware, and the focus ring were the reasons.. So my reasons were ones of ergonomics and not technology. The 20 just worked better for me. If you are buying it from a camera shop ask if they will let you try it out for a couple of days. Take them home and find out which one works best for you. That is the nice thing about buying local and not over the net. Some shops will do this for you. To bad they didn't make the 20 with 8 Mpixels. Then it would be the perfect camera. The depth of field is not all that great on the lens with only only F8, my Olympus was 11. This becomes irrelevent with the Helicon software though, so it was easy to over look this limitation of the lens. I find with an F of 5.4 and 4 stacked images I can cover the whole layout and have everything in focus. Just like any tool you have to know what you want and then buy the camera that works best for you. For me it was the 20.
Dan: I didn't go in depth with the 30. Does it only have a max DOF of 8? I can push my Nikon Coolpix 4300 to 13.4. I really want a camera with a much higher focal length and not rely on software for the adjustment. As for laying the camera on the layout, since the JJJ&E is completely graded, there aren't too many places where I can do that. Many of my shots of my layout are looking down or up. There are only three places where I can put the camera at eye level to the layout. However the Lumix 30 does interest with the 8MP. All of my photo's are taken on a tripod. I've only taken one or two photo's with the Heligon software. I must spend some serious time trying to knit several photo's together with the Heligon software program. I do have a sophisticated cable release for the Nikon Coolpix 4300 that I picked up recently online as the local camera shops didn't have it. If I do buy the Lumix 30 , I'll probably do so on-line as that's where you get the best value. I'm also considering the Nikon D-50 and D-70S as well as a Canon Rebel. The Lumix is a favorite choice if the DOF will be more substancial on the Lumix 30. Stay cool and run steam....
Dan, I think you are correct that the flip-up mirror is on its way out. But not for a while yet. If I really had demanding work, I'd be up to the Nikon D2X, or the Canon equivalent. Once you've seen a good print from the D2X, the D70 is really amateur. Your point about Web-work is very well taken here. At 72 or even 110 dpi, the DSLRs are certainly overkill.
This is why. Nikon D70s with Helicon and then brightening it a bit with Print Shop Pro X. I believe it was 4 frames, possibly 5. Tripod and remote trigger so there would be no movement.
Basic, but it works and no instructions needed for editing. Helicon Filter. Also a freebie at their site.
For interest my shot was taken with just the layout lights on,(daylight fluorescent) no tripod or shutter release. It was positioned with the switchstand being maybe an 1.5" in front of the Lens. The last car in the train is maybe 3 feet away The image was resized and then saved at 60% resolution to reduce the file size. This was just a standard JPG and not the highest resolution of the camera, as I knew it would be posted only on the Web. Helicon is a great piece of software. Very simple to use, and is the primary reason I didn't get too caught up in the DOF of the camera. Fotheringill. That is a great photo. Not sure of your comment, "this is why" though. Care to elaborate.
It was an answer to the question posed at the header of this thread. I thought that one picture would be worth a thousand words. I was incorrect and will now be less pithy in my posts.
