Why are we asking all of these questions? We are giving you folks a chance to weigh in. We are listening to you. Thread 1 - Thread 2 - Thread 3 - Thread 4 Just a quick review: Thread one asked about general interest. 125 people said that in order to be interested in a special run, the road name/car style would have to be appropriate to what they are doing. 40 people said they would support TrainBoard by buying just about anything offered. 10 people said price was the most important factor for them. Thread two asked about shipping and we learned some things. Some folks want us to use the cheapest possible shipping method (nothing wrong with that) versus flat-rate shipping, etc. 47 people said that they would pay for flat-rate shipping and 30 said that was too much. That's still less than 100 votes. Thousands of people view the forums regularly so we are only getting a small sampling of members or visitors on this. Thread three was designed to test a couple of road names. This was just a test. Milwaukee Road got 51 votes, Santa Fe 32, and some people actually thought that Toledo, Tulsa and Fruitcake was a serious consideration, although that was just a sarcastic suggestion. Thread four was a question designed to find out if you wanted a prototypical car, or a fantasy TrainBoard scheme. I was not going to go the TrainBoard car route to start our special run program but a lot of people e-mailed and said, "Why are you not doing a car that says TrainBoard?" This one was close; 54 to 50 in favor of a prototypical car. I'm going to repost something I said in one of the other threads in case you missed it: The two sentences in red are the most important. So, this brings us to question #5, and possibly the last one. I will admit that I am a fallen flag guy. I am not really interested in modern cars. However, what I like is not the key to this project. We are asking questions about what you like. Another interesting question (to me) arises out of some of the e-mail suggestions that we've received; There were a lot of fallen flag railroads. Some of them are the subject of a lot of N Scale releases. Some were short lines and there have been few, if any, releases. Our question: Would you be interested in one (or possibly a series) of fallen flag releases, possibly short line stuff, in which very little or no releases have ever occured? Example; a short line boxcar, tank car, caboose, etc. Some of the manufacturers may not have produced certain products because they want to sell a lot of items. We need only to sell 300 on average. Thanks folks. Let's try to get a couple of hundred votes this time. Charlie
Interesting idea, but depending on the road name, that might be a tougher sell. I think the smartest move would be to release cars in various road names that perhaps have not had enough releases. An example of this would be a B&O 39 foot single dome tank car. MTL has only released two numbers, and there were more than that. Similarly, the same tank car was released in 4 or 5 numbers for ATSF and they had thousands. I am not petitioning for either of these cars, they are just an example of cars that there aren't anywhere near enough that have been released. A few years back, Feather River Trains ran a special run of SP overnight box cars with all lettering but no numbers. The modeler was left to add the numbers. They sold like hot cakes. This approach is a little more efficient for filling out rosters. You can do a UP car, then NP, then WP, then SP, then NYC, PRR, B&O, C&O, SRR, NW, BM, BAR, CRISP etc, this list goes on. And by hitting the big roads first, you could build up the resources to take on the smaller lines and the short lines. If you want to make this an on-going fund raiser, you need to look at making some big releases up front to build the economic engine to keep churning out other releases. Either way, I think it is a very good idea to help finance the site.
I want to add an additional comment to this for those of you who are concerned about the financial aspect of this. We are working with Micro-Trains on this project. That does not mean that future special runs will not come from another manufacturer. We like all of the manufacturers and are thankful for every one of them. What would our hobby be without all of these people? I said that our goal was to make money to help pay bills and to do more special runs. It has become evident that the sole purpose of the first special run will be to raise money to do another special run. To get the first one going, I am going to have to front several thousand dollars (possibly). We will take pre-orders (and that will help some) but I think that some folks will likely hold back at first in order to make sure this is really happening (which it will be). So, there will be pre-orders, and we will likely do 300 cars, and then we will offer the remaining cars for sale here. When 300 are gone, we will start working on another special run project. We have a lot of good suggestions already. Back to the money, whatever I have to pay out of pocket to get this thing started, I will recoup (to the penny), and the rest of the money will be held in an account to help do a second run. Simple math: 300 cars (hopefully) making a $10 profit will make $3000. Based on estimates, the cars will undoubtedly cost in excess of $20 to produce each. Let's say it cost $24 to produce a car. That would mean selling it for $34 (because we want to make a $10 profit). $24 x 300 cars would mean an initial outlay of $7200, so there is a considerable cost just to get started. If we make $3000, that is still not enough to pay for a second special run. Then we would have to infuse more personal money to pay for the second run. Eventually, this would become profitable for TrainBoard and would become a way of financing growth. But, not at first. I still think that this is worth doing. Even if we just broke even it would still be fun, and that's why we are here. Charlie
That is without a doubt our goal. It's just a question of whether releasing big road names is the way to get there the quickest. We are listening to your comments. Charlie
I personally think this is a great idea! I know some folks want to stick to a specific prototype or era. I know the Topeka Tulsa & Fruitcake was just a silly example, but anyone whoever saw that car would ask questions for sure! Even in a brighter color than normal. Just my zany idea. You produce a car,and I will pick one up. I hope people understand this is to be fun and supportive.of this site. Where would we be without it?
Runs such as these would doubtlessly depend upon what MT has in mind. There are likely examples which they will not special run, being held aside for their own purposes. I might believe very popular stuff such as the above could be amongst those road names, with or without reporting numbers.
Hello Charlie, first of all let me say how much I appreciate this site and specifically what you're trying to do with this fundraiser. It takes leadership (and balls) to take something like this on and if it works, we all get a chance to buy a car we otherwise wouldn't have, and if it doesn't, you personally are out a bunch of money, and that just wouldn't be right. When I run the numbers, I'm basically looking at shelling out close to forty bucks, including shipping (say 24 plus 10 plus 6; is that right?) to buy an existing Micro Trains car with a prototypical custom paint job, but nothing particularly distinctive about it other than that none of the commercial manufacturers produced it before. Hmmm, that's a tough call; I might buy one to support TB and to make sure Charlie doesn't end up losing money, but are there 299 others? There are others who do this commercially in this price range (George Holwedel comes to mind), they carefully pick a popular prototype and also they sell cars in two and three packs with different numbers. I have reason to believe these are not exactly making George wealthy... I'm not trying to put a wet blanket on this project, but I would probably announce the car and ask people to preorder, perhaps with a deposit.... Good luck and kind regards, Otto K. ducking for cover....
Your comments are well-taken. The points you make have been considered and I agree with you - especially the part about losing money (which I have done before). I don't know how other people think or feel but it works like this for me: I am a Frisco guy. If model railroad manufacturers were drug dealers, they would have me hooked because if I already have 12 boxcars with different road numbers and they come out with a 13th, I will buy it. I don't know how folks that buy stuff from bigger railroads feel. If you are a Santa Fe fan, do you buy every Santa Fe product that comes out in N Scale? I don't feel that I spend a lot of money over the course of a year but I have to have everything Frisco that comes out, and some related stuff too. If it's a boxcar style that's already out there, fine by me. You are correct when you say "close to 40 bucks" and I would like to keep it under that for a total outlay by people purchasing the special run, but yes, it looks like the final price for whatever is offered will be in the $40 range. We're going to see what we can do to keep shipping to a minimum as suggested in the other thread. Some folks had good advice on shipping. I'll keep reading. Charlie
I have to say, Charlie... On my train budget, close to $40 is hard to stomach for an otherwise run of the mill MT prototype car that in a few months I'll have to check my roster to see if it is the one I bought from/for Trainboard. I'd be more likely jus to make a $40 donation to the site. Now, $40 for a Trainboard branded car, even if it's an otherwise indistinguishable car with "TBX" reporting marks, I'd be much more likely to bite. If I'm going to support the site by buying something I want it to be something that stands out, that will draw questions from pictures or layout visits.
I don't mind paying more for a special run car, because it is supporting a great cause. I agree with TwinDad, I would prefer it to have some kind of Trainboard mark (graffiti maybe?) but that will not stop me from buying it. One suggestion, maybe do preorders to help reduce your initial outlay of cash?
I'm one of the ones who originally wanted a special Trainboard car. I have now changed my vote---- but I will say that I REALLY like the suggestion of a prototype car WITH custom Trainboard graffiti decal. That way everybody could be happy. Apply the decal if you want- don't apply the decal if you don't. Of course, I don't know how much extra cost that would add. And for road name- modern modellers could use (as far as a boxcar) Moscow Camden & St Augustine Hartford & Slocumb- MT did one variation a billion years ago and the cars are outrageously expensive at auction. At any rate- I like the idea of a shortline better than a big road. Who needs ANOTHER SP car. Just my 2 cents. But at this point, I will buy the first car almost certainly-- if only the keep the ball rolling for future projects. I'm smart enough to know that if this project flubs for lack of support, then there will be none in the future. Thanks. Ron
I'd rather a short line to another big name railroad. Just make it a boxcar so it can show up anyway.
I voted yes because it was closer to my feeling than no... I had been a TB donor for a few yrs. Somthing happened and the autodonate stopped (I didn't update a cc exp, or something). I've been too lazy to restart. I will soon... Promise .That's the main reason I'd commit to buying a car unseen. But I think I'm in a small group that runs trains, to ummm run trains. I don't have a line, or an era, or a goal to make my layout look like a real place. LOTUS rails. if I like it, I will run it. I'm not knocking a preference, just stating what I do. If we/you do a fallen line run, find something to tie it to TB, otherwise IMHO, it will seol to the "WOW! THAT's what I've been waiting for" crowd I don't think you will get 300. Just opining. Not sure the car works as a fund raiser. I like my TB cylindrcal hopper. I run it with the CN rainbow car and a few other cars, behind a random diesel. I'm laughing right now, because I'm posting behind TwinDad and his ADHD signature, but ever since I read a post that said ultimately we will do what Charlie says, I've wanted a Good and Plenty car, because "Charlie says, love that Good and Plenty" I almost hit post and realized I mentioned this in Topic #4, but thought I had hit delete. Watch this and tell me it can't inspire THE CAR THAT ALL WILL BUY!!! [video=youtube;ExSlyoVTX3I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExSlyoVTX3I[/video]
My thoughts: 1) Right now I think a run of even 300 cars is risky. The higher the price, the more risky it will be. The more obscure the prototype, the more risky it will be. 2) The price of an MTL Special Run is going to be significantly higher than the equivalent car as a regular run. See, for example, this month's announced PFE TOFC and Trailer Runner Pack announced this month vs. the N Scale Collector price for similar cars. MTL is getting more keen on re-running items that were previously done as Special Runs. 3) I'm not surprised that despite there being thousands of viewers, there are only tens of voters. Forums of which I am aware (trains and otherwise) are dominated by a small percentage of participants. This is not good or bad per se, it just is.
Would it be cheaper to use a painted but undec car and include a set of fallen flag decals in with the car? Example would be one of the nice Tichy Train wood chip gons, also passes for a sugar beet gon, with NP, SP&S, or GN decals. Of course anything that has SP&S it would catch the attention of my wallet or credit card considering that other than for a few boxcars and a caboose nothing has been done in that road.
For 40 bucks, I would buy a Trainboard car, but not a random Obscureville & North Wheresit shortline car. For that kind of money, the car needs to be special to me, not "special" in the generic sense of being a semi-custom paint job.
Special runs seem to do best with someone that has a passion for the road or release behind it. Picking a car by commity is very risky. Sharkman's comment is a perfect example..... There haven't been many B&O tank cars run because there just weren't that many to begin with. B&O didn't use them for revenue service, only for MOW and fuel/water transfer at the yards and shops. There was just a discussion about tank service on the B&O in the yahoo group last month. It would be a very unlikely car to see on the road and probably why MTL picked them in the first case as they tended toward the unusual and odd in the early days. You have to be carefull of the car choice because there may be a reason it was not done before. I like the idea of a car with Trainboard graphiti on it, but that really dates the car to the 80's and newer. There is no car that will fit every time frame so no matter how you look at it, somebody will be left out.
