If you model a road that ran USRA steam or its copies, you are doing pretty good. B&O modellers with limited space can get passenger power, freight power and yard power. B&O operated originals of the USRA light pacific, mikado and 0-6-0. MP sells the first two, Bachmann, the last. You can make minor modifications to the road power to reflect B&O practices. On a late, lamented forum, there was a manufacturer's employee who once referred to the PRR as a 'third tier road'. If that is still the view of the manufacturers, it might be a while before any PRR steam appears. Except for some USRA power and some copies of other roads' power acquired due to wartime exigencies, most PRR power is unique. It looks like nothing else and nothing else looks like it. Then there is the PRR's left hand lead, although I suppose that such is something only for rivet counters and Scale Rule Richards in N scale. PRR even rebuilt some of the 'alien power' to reflect its own practices. I suspect that TRIX chose PRR power, back in the day, because the Belpaire firebox and huge cabs were the only things that would accomodate the large sized three pole motors of yesteryear. For some reason, the big steam sells well. PRR did not run much of the big stuff. Yes, it had four cylinders and copies of the C&O 2-10-4 and some articulateds bought used, but, again, most of this was due to wartime exigencies. I will never understand why big steam sells as well as it does. Those with basement empires are in the minority. For the rest of us, even if we have the fifteen inch or better curves that the el-huge-Os require, the size of our pike limits the size of the train. Unless you are modelling a logging or mining road with steep grades, an articulated looks silly pulling only ten or fifteen freight cars. Unless you are modelling the SF Peninsula or the C&O in Kentucky, a superpower looks pretty silly pulling only three or four passenger cars. Big steam is grand on N-TRAK and a basement empire, but on most home pikes, it is simply too big. Argue N TRAK all that you want, but, for me, at least, I can not see laying out that kind of scratch for something that I can run only at a monthly NTRAK meeting and an occasional public show, and even then, only for the hour or half hour that I can get some running time. But sell, it does, big steam in N
Brokemoto, as a layoutless loconut I think I can (at least in a way) answer that- bigger is better, we've been programmed as such since birth. If it infects all of our life and buying choices, wouldn't it translate into our motive power preferences? Hell, isn't that really why we run N? Big things in small spaces. More of 'em in the same (usually limited) space. Given an unlimited budget and unlimited space, we'd all be running 1:1, or at least something a little bigger than 1:160..... Trains, massive iron beasts that built a nation, now accurately hauling little freights and peoples across your tabletop. The overwhelming feeling one gets when standing next to the driver or siderod of an AC cab-forward? It sends chills down my spine...... so I'll run it in N. Trains remind me of times long past, but BIG trains remind me of the truly massive scale of the things, making already small people and places on my layout look even more diminutive. I can almost feel the rails shake
I believe western roads sell because the majority of model railroaders model them. Was the Kato Broadway Limited set/locomotives a smashing success? I don't think so! If the UP business/excursion fleet & 844 locomotive are produced, watch them fly off the shelves.
A couple of the reasons have already been hinted at. 1: Belpaire fireboxes/generic applications. Manufacturers have made generic locomotives that will fit on many roads and are easy to kitbash. That is what bachmann sells almost exclusively. Pennsy Steam is the absolute Antithesis of this. Pennsy Steam will never be commonly made, because it cannot have a different railroad herald put on it. 2: Beyond USRA and similar standard designs, the majority of the other stuff being put out are the impressive articulated, the unique designs and Excursion service locomotives. Why? because they want to appeal to people who were born after Steam died. They want to appeal to collectors and they want to appeal to modern modelers who will buy it for excursion service. 3: The Pennsy historical society may have the largest member list, but how old are those members? What's the average monthly income? Hysterical society memberships aren't generally expensive. Not compared to a $300 BLI Paragon2 or $500 BLI Hybrid Dreyfuss Hudsons. The manufacturers clearly don't believe there is enough disposable income in Pennsy fans to make the products worth it. I tend to agree. As for HO versus N. I could be wrong, but I suspect that N-scale attracts more Diesel era modelers. Not due to lack of product, because lets be honest, there is/was steam out there that could be modified in the early days of N, but because the tradeoff of size benefits the Diesel. Think of this, if I'm going to get a steam engine, an expensive one like a BLI, I'd like very much to see the detail. I'd like to see the entire locomotion as it rumbles by with pistons moving, valves actuating. That is simply easier to appreciate in HO and larger than it is in N. Nscale is better at appreciating a long train through towering scenery or even just realistically proportioned scenes. It is NOT as good at appreciating the locomotive itself. None of which is to say I don't wish there WERE N-scale Pennsy steam, only that there are plenty of factors as to why there isn't and they aren't mysterious.
The reason things get made in HO is that there are four times the buyers in the pool. If you really want a certain product in N scale, then place an order for it. Be sure to order at least one and a half times the minimum and your order will be expedited. I believe the minimum most of the manufacturer are looking for is ten thousand. So a certified check for an order of fifteen thousand locomotives will ensure delivery within one year of a loco with decent accuracy. This principle applies whether what you want was powered by electricity, diesel or steam or rolled behind them. When you back up your wants with real cash in the hands of the manufacturers not promises, things will get made.
How many different badges can you put on a big boy or challenger? How many iterations of them do we really need? Just look at the Hiawatha set from Fox Valley. How many different road names can you slap on that? It's sold out and when you find it, they command higher prices than you could have bought them for new a year+ ago. They are afraid of them not selling because they haven't sold them before. I wouldn't put out just anything, but something akin to a T-1 would certainly sell (and they have sold very well in HO). It's a scary time economically (and it's not looking better) so many companies just aren't prone to cranking out new product that require new designs. For Athearn, they are just rereleasing, so it's not a huge money sink. If the economy keeps stumbling along, I think in ten years the prototyping technology that's evolving will make a lot more possible for a lot less money. But you have to couple that with a cultural trend moving away from hobbies. However, if I was an N scale manufacturer, I would certainly be trying to bring out a few models that appeal to retirees (including PRR and other Eastern roads), though often fixed in income, have disposable income and time. If they wait another ten years, a lot of their market may not be willing/able to buy. I don't have loads of disposable income, but I do buy engines. All the western road releases they bring out look great, but get $0 from me. They've focused so intensively on western roads that I almost exclusively buy used items because there are no modern releases. I'm sure for every one of me, there are three others that buy western roads. However, if there are a thousand engines sold under western road names, then how much can you ignore the 250? That's a significant number of customers, if they only sold a thousand engines... when you start getting into real production numbers, surely the potential for profit is significant. But they can't wait until nearly the whole fan base has passed on 40 years from now.
Realistically, a Big Boy can have just one. However, the Challenger wheel arrangement has a good number of possibilities beyond UP. Clinchfield, NP, SP&S, D&RGW and...? There is a surprisingly large following for the MILW. Couple that to folks who simply like steam and those who like passenger trains of any kind. It's not just the Hi sets he's offering which are selling out. I don't believe there is a shift away from hobbies as such. It's instead moving to the instant gratification syndrome of computers, games, gadgets held in hand. Things where no real work or effort is involved. Which is sad. If people could buy an insta-layout and just start running it, perhaps. But there's probably no way to satisfy masses with enough offerings along such lines.
Did you miss item 2 where I mentioned unique designs? The Hiawatha certainly qualifies. And please tell me which western road steamers have come out. As far as I know you really mean is GS4, AC-12, challenger, 844, big boy and a bachmann that is not quite completely unlike atsf 3751. Most of those are engines in current service and the AC-12 is prominently stuffed and monted and the big boy might be the most stuffed and mounted engine out there.
i was able to pick up sufficient steam for my PRR and Reading RR modeling (i even have some other roadnames that in my rules share the same track) most are part of Walthers heritage series...the problem, however, is traction. i am in between layout due to a move to different residence, and find myself hoping that when i get the next one built that one or both of two things work out: (1) bullfrog snot works well in N Scale w/o cutting down on electric connectivity with other wheels (2) the 50' box cars with Kato tiny powered chassis sets w/ lot of weight added will provide much of the traction. it is a problem because i like long trains. i keep the grade to 2% and use 20" radius as the minimum. but long freight and passenger trains alike seem to be too much for these locos. argh! yes...i know they include installable traction tire wheelsets...did you ever try to install one of those? did you ever check into how much it would cost to have them installed? ouch! N Scale and tie rod rivets/screws/etc not good for larger hands and chubby fingers! respectfully Gary L Lake Dillensnyder
"In N scale, roads east of the Mississippi are largely neglected. Not sure exactly why that is." I see this wrote quite often but all you have to do is point to the USRA prototypes to dispel this inaccuracy, most owners being eastern roads. The problem that is present is that overall there isn't a whole lot of steam that is available, period. Yah, we have two UP articulates and a Northern coming (one of the articulates was also rostered by three eastern roads), two signature Espee steamers (plus if you really want to include it, the Northerns by Bachmann ATSF and Concor, also western though misrepresented by the models IMnotsoHO and rather old tooling at that), Walthers Berkshire and Y3 are east of the Mississippi engines, though some Y3s were sold secondhand out west. The real problem is that there simply isn't a lot of anything available all the way around but I have to agree that the lack of some sort of recent PRR engine (aside from the GHQ Mike) is extremely odd, especially so given the road's popularity. It would be nice to see a true PRR model done but it is hard to say who might do such, especially since there really isn't many manufacturers even interested in doing any sort of steam in N. Replacement boiler shells, similar to the GHQ Mike, would be one way of expanding what is available, if you could find someone who could do them, but until manufacturers take steam more seriously overall I don't believe that we will see much change. Wish it were not the way it is but it is.
What is needed is for one of the K4 Pacific locomotives to be unstuffed and turned into an excursion locomotive. Would still be less expensive to commission a manufacturer to produce one. I still have my Trix/Model power Pacific. I even turned down the driver flanges.
Sorry, my reply sounded more argumentative that I intended it. Yes, those are the ones I am referring to. I'm sure I haven't been the only one to speak to manufacturers at shows about steam we would like to see, to be answered with the engines you listed, given the argument that "the demand just isn't there" or "all our resources are allocated here" (doubtless very true) or "It's not a versatile enough design." To the last of those statements we have all the models you mentioned as evidence to the contrary. As far as universal engines, they put them out in almost every road imaginable (we need more 2-8-2's though, getting hard to find them). The C&O H8 Allegheny is also prominently stuffed and mounted, though no plastic offerings in N scale. Of course the core of the discussion is unique eastern engines. I suppose Milwaukee is a Midwestern road, so can be considered part of the "east" or at least touching it. Of course, if I remember the story on the AC-12 there was a lot of effort involved in convincing them to make it. I also made many concessions as to why it's difficult to approach more "new" designs right now, but also commented on a market that is prime for the right manufacturer, not saying they shouldn't make ANY western roads, but that investment in new models focused in areas that are currently untouched could be profitable. After all, for a manufacturer it's mostly about money. If the rerelease of the challenger and big boy fall short of expectations, will they say "no one wants to pay the money for a big engine" Or "unique engines just don't sell anymore" or will they consider that many who wanted these models, purchased them during their previous offerings? The problem is I have heard many false rationalizations from manufacturers (not specifically railroading, just in general) because they look at sales figures and apply them to factors that are not truly root causes.
So how could someone like me go about getting something like a PRR J1 / C&O T1 2-10-4 produced and sold? If I knew how I'd have done it by now...
It is a which came first, the chicken or the egg. Are people modeling western because that is what they can buy, or are the manufactures making western because that is what people want? Kato does western because that is what sells in Japan. I has absolutely nothing to do with the US market. Kato thinks globally and modelers outside of the US romanticize the Classic Western movie and its setting so they model the trains that ran there. BTW - The Broadway didn't sell well because it is fricking ugly. It is a brown train to anybody who is not a Pennsy fan. The finish on the cars made them look like molded plastic and cheap. To top that it was powered with an electric loco with no catenary to run it under. It was doomed from the start. If the set was an earlier steam era train, I know a half a dozen people that would have bought one that didn't. Here goes my thoughts on the rest...... Alot of this may have been said earlier but here is my view of the how's and why's to many questions posed here. Why no PRR? - As mentioned above, the belpaire boiler is the main reason. PRR steam is too unique to pass for anything else so it limits the sales to fans of the Pennsy. You can't slap Santa Fe on the side of a K4 anymore and expect it to sell. This is the same reason there is very little B&O out there. They had very few USRA or USRA copy loco's on the roster. Like Pennsy, most B&O loco's were home designs making them not very usefull with other roadnames slapped on the side of them. There is more PRR out there than many other roads, just not what most people want. There have been 4 unique PRR plastic steam loco's produced to date. Yes some are old, some are odd but they have been produced. Try modeling NYC, you get Hudsons and that is it. Try B&O, the Bachmann 0-6-0 is really the only truely accurate B&O offering and that is after you swap tenders around. Good luck with L&N, Monon, Western Maryland, FEC, and others. There is nothing at all out there. There is hope, Bachmann has been making unique boiler variations on their recent releases. The Heavy Mountain had two unique boilers and two different valve gear sets. The 2-10-2 had 4 unique boiler versions. This bodes well if they decide to make a heavy Pacific as it would work for a K4 and other Heavies out there with a valve gear and boiler/cab change. Everything is large steam from the west because eastern roads don't sell - Eastern roads sell just fine. Look at how well Bachmann has done with thier releases which are weighted toward Eastern roads. All of Walthers releases have been based on eastern roads. I have info from Bachmann that they sold over 10000 of the original C&O H5 2-6-6-2's and that was a loco that had a horid start. Just so you understand, a typical production run of loco's is in the 1000-2000 piece range. If unique won't sell, explain the Big Boy etc. etc.(also why does large steam sell?) - The Big Boy and Challenger are both unique and large. You notice that the Challenger came first from Athearn to test the waters. They could offer it in multiple roads and hedge their bet a bit. Once they had proved that they could build big steam, the Big Boy was a logical step. It is basicaly the exact same loco with 2 more drivers, making parts and design costs relatively cheap. Large steam sells because it is impressive. It doesn't hurt that the articulateds handle tight radius curves as good or better than long wheelbase diesels. Even though it may look silly, a Big Boy will run fine on 11" curves and pull a heck of a train doing it, opening up the loco to a larger market. I would bet most people buying these loco's are not buying them because the model the west, but because they want to own a small piece of railroad history by owning a model of one of the biggest and baddest loco's out there. From a manufactures point of view, it doesn't cost much more to build a Big Boy than it does to build a Mikado but they can justify a much higher price simply because of sheer size. Bigger is worth more isn't it? Manufactures like to make a profit and if customers are willing to spend more on big steam, then they will build it. The AC-12, another large unique loco that people just want to have an example of, even if they are not modeling the SP. It follows the same rule of the Big Boy. The Hiawatha and GS-4. Both of these locos have one thing going for them, a very flashy passenger train to put behind them. Do you think there is any relevance that they are both orange trains? Steam passenger trains have a nostalgia factor that superceeds any road loyalty. The only passenger sets I have bought from Kato were the original Cal Zephyr and the Daylight. The Cal Zephyr because it was the first complete accurate train, the Daylight because it was steam powered. I will buy any steam powered passenger set that comes out, period. Many others feel the way I do too. All these loco's have been standouts and flagships for their respective lines. You are not going to see the road specific mundane produced. Even through your favorite road had 5000 of them, it is still only relative to your road. It has to be unique and famous to sell. Look at the model power line. A quartet of small, generic mainline loco's that run pretty well and most everybody can use but their sales are slow. Fortunately they keep them flowing because with out them, there would be no average loco's available. It doesn't hurt that these large loco's can pull a good sized train unlike their smaller counterparts. This opens up the Ntrak arena and those of us with steep grades. There is nothing worse than seeing a loco with 6 cars behind it spinning its wheels on a hill. The "bigguns" don't do that. My take on things in general....... If you want to model a steam era road out of the box, choose C&O. Thanks to Bachmann and Walthers, there have been over a half dozen accurate road loco's done for C&O to date in various sizes. You can make a reasonable roster without doing much more than opening your wallet and swapping a few Bachmann tenders here and there. I would say SP and N&W are tied for second on easiest to model. N&W had had the Y3, Y6B, Heavy Mountain and J Class produced so far, SP has the GS4, AC12 and the SP style tender from Model Power to convert other loco's to close approximation. PRR is right in there with these although some of the loco's available are much older. Beyond that, be prepared to learn to bash or pay somebody to do it for you. Some roads have one or maybe two accurate or at least close enoughs available, most have none. Rapid Prototyping may make things easier but there have to be mechanisms out there to put these boilers on. The manufactures still have to see enough potential to make a loco that we can purchase to swipe the mechanism out of. I think the next "generic" loco down the pike will be a Heavy Pacific simply because it could do double duty as a K4. We already know UP modelers have an FEF coming, and I think there is something for the B&O guys in the future also. Both will be very road specific and large, just what many don't think will sell. I think many on here don't realize just what has and is being produced in steam. There is more than you realize just because it may not happen to fit your needs. Here is a quick rundown and I bet you can find one or two that will fit your road no matter what steam you model. 0-6-0 0-8-0 2-6-0 (a couple versions, Atlas, Model Power) 2-6-2 2-6-6-2 (a couple versions, Bachmann) 2-8-0 2-8-2 2-8-4 2-8-8-0 2-8-8-2 (a couple versions, Walthers, ConCor x 2, Atlas) 2-10-0 2-10-2 4-4-0 4-4-2 4-6-0 4-6-2 4-6-6-4 4-8-2 (a couple versions) 4-8-4 (a couple versions, Bachmann x 2, Kato, ConCor x 2) 4-8-8-4 Shay (almost forgot that one)
Whew! What a rant! Talking with various LHS owners and others in the hobby and here on TB, it seems that everyone only wants a shake the box and go steam engine for their RR. But, as was said above by someone, that just ain't going to happen for everybody! Steam was so very individualized by the RR's, that it just would take a huge amount of re-tooling to produce all types and versions and sizes and wheelbases and etc, etc, etc. So, we just have to kitbash or fabricate our own if we want to be protoype specific. Small, challenging and delicate modeling that ain't for the faint of heart. Or as we age it just gets harder to do! PRR had some awesome stuff, all very practical and proven and running in beautiful scednery. And their locos were very distinctive, as were most other RR's. So, either kitbash, fabricate or modify to 'almost right' status. and petition outfits like GHQ to come up with a kit for the frames that are available. They DO want to know what buyers are looking for.
They did have quite a few. The NP had one class with Belpaires, the Z's 2-6-6-2's, which were a copy of GN's.
my apologies to the group i realize now i was writing at a totally different level and did not know it at the time you all are, of course, writing about an N Scale steam loco that is a model of a prototypical PRR and other eastern roadnames when i was simply referring to models produced with the PRR roadname and others applied of course i was on a different line and apologize for not realizing the depth of the issue i guess i am one of lower expectations and do my best to detail according to photos i gather and collect no, the amount of available accurate to prototype PRR and other eastern steam is few and far between sorry for the rant that was moot ;-) i can appreciate the desire for accurate representation and have counted rivets now and again myself respectfully, Gary
