Ntrak thoughts

I thought I would make this a separate thread so anyone can post their ideas for others benefit. I always had a problem with the Ntrak corner modules. The four foot corners are almost 6 feet across from tip to tip. Transporting them is a real pain because of their size and shape. The three foot corners are more manageable but still the diamond shape takes up too much room. My solution was necessitated when I sold my pickup truck and got a minivan. Losing that 8 foot truck bed meant some changes had to made. First is obvious; no 8 foot modules. But still the corner modules needed to be reviewed. What I came up with is an easier way to build a corner module. I did away with the diagonal cuts. The module is 2 feet wide and 3 feet long on one side. The other side is 6 feet long. The module looks like an "L" all corners are square and 90 degrees. No diagonal cuts. Two corners can be cut from one sheet of plywood. I can get four of them in my van as long as a clamped pair does not exceed 23 inches wide. (I have to remove the two rear bench seats) But four of these corner modules will make a minimum layout of 6 X 12 feet with 4 more straight modules (6 feet long) a 12X18 or 6X24 layout can be made. Also the 3x6 corner modules are great for creating a yard using Peco curved turnouts. The corner modules hold all of the turnouts and the yard's length is determined solely on the number of straight modules between the two corners. The "L" shape corner is good also for an inside corner as the 6 foot side allows the track to swing back to the outside on one side of the module. A separate transition module is needed for the other side.

 

How about an old Carnival trick?

You can cut one end of a module at 45 degrees, and a second at opposit angle. (Curve your track at the cut end). Make a third module shorter with 3 sides (like a pie slice), so you have 45 degrees combined, and a fourth module with 45 degrees at both ends that carries a 90 degree curve end to end.

Use flat box hinges between the modules, and pull the hinge pins. Locate all hinges to one master jig. Now you can combine any module with anyother module by slipping a hinge pin into place on both sides of each module.

By combining Module #1 and #2 end to end at the square ends, you of course have a double length straight track as usual. Place #1 and #2 together at their 45 degree ends and you have a long legged right angle curve. #1, #2, & #4 and you have a 180 degree curve. #1, #3 and you have a long leg and a 90 degree curve. By pulling the one hinge pin, the other hinge will allow the two modules to fold side by side, for ease of rolling around in the trade show hall. None of these modules are longer than a standard module. Carnivals have used this method for years because they have to setup quickly, and tear down quickly.

 

I was going to build an Ntrak module but am now wondering whether its worth it, or maybe a Onetrak one instead as far more lax in regulatin and far more operations friendly. I see the Ntrak standards are outdated and not progressing with todays materials and techniques available, nor are they willing to talk about any changes. This is what will kill it. Seeing 20 year old dusty 70 pound modules doesnt really make me want to jump right in.

Mike

 

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by watash:
[QB]How about an old Carnival trick?

Use flat box hinges between the modules, and pull the hinge pins. Locate all hinges to one master jig. Now you can combine any module with anyother module by slipping a hinge pin into place on both sides of each module.

ly.
/QB]<hr></blockquote>

I have seen this done by a HO modular group. We still use the "C" clamps to joim modules. However this would be great for dedicated modules. I am no longer using the 2x2's for legs. Instead we are making legs out of 3/4 inch electrical conduit cut into two pieces, one is 8" long and is the top piece the other is 31 inches long an is the bottom. they are joined by a 3inch section of 1/2 inch all thread and two 1/2 inch hex nuts. One nut is either glued or welded to the allthread and then both are welded or glued to the conduit. The other nut is glued or welded to the other piece of conduit. (You have to grind down the corners on the hex nuts to fit inside the conduit.)

 

I'm back in the hobby after 20 years, and got interested with Ntrak modules. Problem I saw in the shows were that no one really "operated", they just ran in large square circles, as was mentioned.

I came across a club in Glenwood Springs/Silt, CO, who use modules but run their layouts as operating railroads. (Roaring Fork Valley Model Railroaders) This really intrigued me as my love is for operations. During the show, they invited visitors to come and operate the trains. I volunteered and wound up running the westbound yard, building up freights and passenger trains and sending them out on the mainline. My wife and I had a ball and she encouraged me to get back into the hobby.

I incorporated their overall layout plans and modified to meet some of my wishes. I started laying track to the Ntrak spec, but it didn't cover 4 track main and I found it somewhat limiting. So, using the best of ntrack, I created my layout to be moveable rather than portable, with break away wiring, and 2' wide sections from 6 to 8' long.

I'd like to see more shows where operations is the norm, and update ntrak as needed to promote the hobby.

 

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Frank Labor:

I'd like to see more shows where operations is the norm, and update ntrak as needed to promote the hobby.<hr></blockquote>

Promote the hobby was the original intent of Ntrak. People at the shows like to see the long trains roll by. Kids like to count the cars. Most times the operator is besieged with questions that he /she doesn't have the opportunity to "operate". We tried to show operations with our switching module but people were just not interested. Now one thing about running trains. People do not like to see the same train going around and around. We use a 12 track yard (4 tracks per line) It is possible to operate 4 trains per mainline track and do it without DCC. Result: People see a variety of equipment and not the same train time after time after time, etc.

 

I guess the biggest problem I have with NTRAK is that some members of our NTRAK group (Iron Railz)seem to think that no two modules should even come close to looking like they are of the same place or even the same time frame

I do really enjoy talking to all the diferent people I meet at trainshows and discussing model railroading.

I am also really getting tired of 3 tracks that just go round and round.

 

I don't really know alot about any of these standards, NTrak or oNetrak, but I like the setup this person has at his website. He calls it Sub-N, and I am thinking about using this concept sometime in the future...maybe : ) I like the layout alot, and it seems flexible. Check it out. Just click on the Sub-N link on the web sites menu! The Northern Pacific Is this the kind of operation you are talking about? Kinda new at this!

[ 04 August 2001: Message edited by: in2golfz ]</p>

 

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by in2golfz:
I don't really know alot about any of these standards, NTrak or oNetrak, but I like the setup this person has at his website. He calls it Sub-N, and I am thinking about using this concept sometime in the future...maybe : ) I like the layout alot, and it seems flexible. Check it out. Just click on the Sub-N link on the web sites menu! The Northern Pacific Is this the kind of operation you are talking about? Kinda new at this!
[ 04 August 2001: Message edited by: in2golfz ]<hr></blockquote>

The owner of this layout claims to have based it on Ntrak standards, however, to what degree is not immediately clear. Ntrak produces a "How to" manual which goes into detail regarding module construction specifications. According to the manual, "The specifications were designed so that any builder, anywhere in the world, could build a module, bring it to a show year after year, and know that it would 'plug' into the others and operate. The modules were a layout's building blocks. Size of a layout was only limited by space available and/or number of modules. Over the years there have been spin-offs such as one-trak and bend-trak as well as individual modelers using a portion of the Ntrak specifications to suit their own situation. Ntrak has a website that you can access at www.ntrak.org

 

Ntrak has never interested me for two reasons, and I first saw an Ntrak module over 25 years ago. First, the three track mainline is not in itself unprototypical, but why did the original designers stipulate that the lines be such an unrealistic distance apart? It looks SO unrealistic! The second reason is that there isn't an Ntrak club within 100 miles of where I have lived since 1981.

 

Yes I agree with a few a of you guys that NTRAK may be strarting to show it's age, but it still works. Can you name me one concept that has done more to advance N-Scale Model Railroading than NTRAK? You have to remember that the NTRAK manual sets out the MINIMUM requirements for building a module. If you meet these standards your module will be able to be used any place a layout is built with NTRAK modules. All the modules will go together because they are all built to the same standard.
As for operation of a NTRAK layout. My local NTRAK club is just coming off a full week show at a local library. We ran the trains round and round when we had people coming to see the layout. With DCC we were able two have two trains on the same track running in separate directions. We set up meets at the passing sidings. With DCC we could even throw in a 3rd train on a line and have 3 way meets. The crowd loved it! On two nights we had operating nights. This was mostly for club members, but we always had a few people watching. We even had 3 people join the club after seeing the operation night. One guy had been in the hobby for over 5 years and didn't realize that there was a local NTRAK club. The general public wants to see trains running, the Model Railroaders want to see the trains OPERATE. You will loose the attention of the public when you stop and take 10--15 minutes to set out and pickup cars at a siding. At a public show keep the trains running.
For the question as to why the main lines are so far apart, the answer is to make it possible for operators to get their hands on a derailed car on a track without fouling the other tracks around it.
The comment about the 20 year old dirty/dusty module made me realize that two of my modules are at least 15 years old. They pick up dust and dirt after 15 years, but so does the home layout. The answer is to clean up, freshen up, and tighten up.

I am quite satisfied when NTRAK. It has done what it was supposed to do. Get people into N-Scale, make it possible for people from all over the world to share a hobby of Model Railroading in N-Scale. Go to an N-Scale convention, see the huge layouts and then tell me that NTRAK doesn't work.

 

Ntrak clubs are only as good as their members. This is not meant as a derogitory statement. What I have observed is that with todays busy lifestyle it is hard for most members (or potential members) to fully participate. Yes, Ntrak standards need updating, but it may be hard to convince a guy who has award winning modules to rip them up and build new ones. Switching operations would be interesting for the observer who is not thrilled with long trains. The inside track can be used for that but rarely is. The club I belong to L.E.N.S Ohio(Lake Erie N Scale) is very informal. The standards are sometimes stretched beyond Ntrak limits, which can cause problems with set-up, tear down and running. We set up at public libraries, parks, civic events, hobby shops and of course, train shows. Most outsiders want to see the long trains. We've seen clubs that can set up a 40 module layout with lock-step precission and be running trains in less than an hour, leaving us staring in total amazement. Clubs that have a semi-permanent set-up in owned or rented buildings seem to lean towards operations other than long train running. Sun-N-Sand, in Scottsdale, Arizona is a good example of this as they are a permanent fixture at the McCormick Railroad Museum. I am pretty much for updating Ntrak standards. I have one module (a 3foot corner), that I got from a member who moved out of the area. I am creating a street-running branch line which merges with the inside track which I will eventually extend with a another 4 foot strait module. It will be isolated as I do intend to do switching operations. Ntrak does serve a purpose. It gets people into the hobby who don't have time or space for a layout. It's also a good way to get all the wheels dirty on all those shiny new Micro-Trains cars.

 

Many of you are quite correct when you say that N-track has not changed, nor will it. I'm glad that it won't. You have to keep in mind the idea behind it. N-track never was, or ever will be intended to replace your home layouts. The original purpose, and our club's continuing goal, is to promote the hobby! I remember when I was a kid, back in the early 60's. People didn't talk much about it, and you might never know your neighbor had a layout unless you ran into him at the hobby shop. N-track was designed from the get-go to get model railroading out of the basements, and into public forums, like shopping malls and various shows. Look how the hobby has exploded! The N-track modules are not designed for "operations", or "switching" or like things. Now, the really creative among us have demonstrated that you can have both. But when our club puts on a show, that's just what we're doing. We are asking the public to come and see the "show" we put on. Generally speaking, the general public does not understand what we are doing with switching. I see it at shows all the time. When other clubs are switching, everybody looks at one another and says collectively; "Why did the train stop?" The public who come to show usually want to see trains in motion. Ask yourself this: Are you there to put on a show for others, or just to run trains and have a good time? We get together to switch and run trains on regular occasions, but when it's "show time", we make sure we are putting on a good show for the public. As an example; the difference between N-track and One-track, from the perspective of the spectator. You're standing in front of a One-track module, admiring the scenery, when along comes a train. When it's gone around the bend, it's takes minutes to see another. On our N-track layout, at one area, you can see 5-trains. It's only seconds before you see another train coming. That's called showmanship. As to the module construction, it's designed so that everyone's module will mate with any one else's in the country. If you want to do your own thing, go ahead. Just don't expect other clubs to let you plug-in your modules into their layout, so if you can't bring your entire layout, you won't get to go to the show. And please don't ask N-track to change. If all you want to do is run trains for yourself, don't inhibit the fun the rest of us have in promoting this great hobby. I have enough trouble trying to keep 5-trains running at the same time, I don't need to try switching, too. MOPAC 1

[ 05 August 2001: Message edited by: MOPAC 1 ]</p>

 

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Alan:
it is good to see long trains running on the N Trak layout<hr></blockquote>

<font color="33663">They normally get 1 train to run by the end of the show, after a lot of head scratching and track relaying

</font>

 

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by StickyMonk:


<font color="33663">They normally get 1 train to run by the end of the show, after a lot of head scratching and track relaying

</font><hr></blockquote>

OOOH Low Blow Schtick and yes I've know it has happened to every scale portable layout at least once!
I've also been there, done that.

 

all i have to say is if you can't run em long why bother? there is a club whome i am familiar with who says the branch is for locals only and those are small, my BUTT. i've been on several 100 car+ locals...........

 

About the one train running after a lot of head scratching and track relaying. Somebody's modules are NOT up to NTRAK standards. A show is not the time find out if a new/old module is running okay. In our shows a consistantly bad running module will be jerked out of a layout. I know I have pulled several out of layouts over the years. Shows are for running trains not rebuilding modules.

 

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by porkypine52:
About the one train running after a lot of head scratching and track relaying. Somebody's modules are NOT up to NTRAK standards. A show is not the time find out if a new/old module is running okay. In our shows a consistantly bad running module will be jerked out of a layout. I know I have pulled several out of layouts over the years. Shows are for running trains not rebuilding modules.<hr></blockquote>

Amen to that. Modules require maintenance as does anything else. The abuse the modules are subjected to in just set up, teardown and transport will take its toll. I opted for a five year life for a module. After five years the module has to be inspected and at a minimum scenery will have to be scrapped off and redone. Track may also have to be relaid. Off course if there are any big problems like warpage the module is chopped up after salvaging whatever can be salvaged.

 

Alright you lot
Time for my 2 cents, here is a couple of my ideas for corner modules. My ideas are on top and I drew what I thought Watash had in mind on the bottom, another good idea!! Now I need to remember how to post the sucker! Here goes!

2slim