The Kato Great Northern Passenge set has been something of a mystery from the get-go. Before it released there were certainly rumors from vendors and even Charlie Vik that the Kato release would certainly contain a full dome car and be more prototypical. What actually got released (rehash of old non GN cars) was a bit a surprise for everyone. There has been a rumor that Kato rushed the GN set out the door because someone (walthers???) was going to do a proto Empire Builder in N. We can only hope... Kevin
"Before I Die", said by J. Long. May I echo the sentiment. I'm in a position to add to my collection and would like to see various western trains put out. The area that has been most ignored with the highest number of N Scalers is the north east, midwest and south east. These guys and gals have been asking for eastern and southern trains for most of their lives. I would like to see a NYC, Pennsy and other trains mentioned here produced by Kato. Also, I'd love to see the UP and SP Daylights re-run before I die. Figuratively that's approximately 20 years before I end up being hand fed and wearing attends. Yikes! Go Kato Go!
I hope someone other than Kato steps into the N scale passenger arena, as Kato has a somewhat sporadic record in terms of availability in the past.
Back in the Fall I was talking with a guy at Walthers on another issue, and we got to talking about passenger trains. He said they would be coming out with sleepers in a few months in a lot of roads---you know, the ones we are still waiting for! I asked him why doesn't Walthers get involved in a whole train like Kato did...I mean, it would be huge. He says its management. He said mgmt thinks HO is the way to go. This guy said he is an n-scaler and actually had some input with the n sleepers. He said he and a handful of others at Walthers who are n-scalers are constantly pushing for n-scale product, but it has been an uphill battle. I am sure the Walthers sleepers will be nice, but quite frankly, they will be sort of a bust for me. I don't want a handful of sleepers---prototypical or not---what am I supposed to do with them, sit them on a siding or keep them in a station? I want an entire consist to run. Kato has hit a home run with the CZ and Super Chief. Why can't other manufacturers see this??? I think Kato makes great stuff, and if possible, I'd like to see them come out with every name train tomorrow. I would buy every one. But that is not possible. Walthers should see this as an opportunity to pickup some share. In a hobby that seems to constantly be under pressure to bring product that people want, why is it so hard to see that this would be a moneymaker? There is PLENTY of room in the name passenger market for 3 or 4 manufacturers to make money and not step on eachothers' toes. You all have made some great suggestions for trains and even the small ones could probably be profitably done by repainting/relettering. Much of the tooling could be reused. Has anyone seen the Walthers HO Empire Builder? It looks like it will be pretty nice. If they brough this in N...wow...with the Great Dome...very sharp! I'm gonna call this guy back and ask him if anything is happening with an n-scale Builder...
True, but we adapt. Forty years ago I decided to model western roads and learned to love them. Have never even considered southeastern roads. Good thing, too. Would still have been waiting for even a box car for Atlanta, Birmingham & Coast (the coast on the right). Still, I'd still like to see the lightweight pre-high level El Capitan or the original lightweight Super Chief, either with E1's for motive power. Or a Sunset Limited consist, the only SP passenger train that ever caught my eye, and it even traveled to the southeast. I already have the PA-1's. These probably won't happen, but I'll adapt. I do like to see passenger consists released as a complete train. This business of buying cars one at a time is a crap shoot that none of us may win, even if we have all the time in the world. There just aren't any guarantees that the train for which you buy one car will ever have even one more car much less the full consist. So yes, Go Kato Go! Ben
I think the next truly new passenger train that Kato does will be a SP Daylight train. With a steam locomotive as power. I know you all think I'm crazy right now........ Rich
Wrong...all wrong! Your not crazy!! Your not crazy at all. Why shouldn't we want, what we want, when we want it and for the most part be able to find it? In the past if I wanted something I had to find a way to take what was available and scratch build it into what I wanted. So, I'm not so good at scratching and gave it up. I mean I couldn't find the right decals, the correct color of paint, knuckle couplers that worked, parts to replicate various components of a passenger car, full skirting, partial skirting, no skirting and the list goes on. Well, time will tell and when I'm gone to wherever it is we go, I do hope I can get the model trains I want on the other side...grin! You can hope...right? Hope it's not to warm...I've been known to bring in air conditioning and a good evangelist friend of mine has been known to put in water coolers. LOL! Enjoy the hobby and what you have. I think someday we will look back and realize these were the best times. Lunch is over and now it's time to take a snooze.
Crazy like a fox No way, man. If I were running a business like Kato's, I'd have this at the top of my product development plan. The short justification: A lot of us bought the Super Chief set even though we're not modeling the Santa Fe. Why? We love American passenger trains. And the Super Chief model was a principled, prototypical project that deserved our support. I don't run my Super Chief on my D&RGW layout; instead, it has pride of place on the family bookcases. The long justification for seeing a Daylight in Kato's plans: Imagine how frustrating it must be to develop new models, knowing that the market is so horrendously fragmented -- a D&RGW modeler isn't going to buy a UP loco, unless somebody points a gun at his head. (I confess to owning several, however, but please don't press me on this.) How do you make money in this crazy business, with such a fragmented market? Simple: Find a formula that has appeal beyond "my road or no road." Of course, Kato already did a Daylight, but unless I'm mistaken, it wasn't particularly prototypical. Bottom line is this: I will probably buy EVERY prototypical Kato loco + passenger car release, NO MATTER WHAT THE ROAD IS. I'm modeling D&RGW, so it seems foreordained that I'll wind up with six Zephyr sets, but so be it. I hope my collection also includes representative passenger trains AT THE ZEPHYR'S LEVEL from throughout the glorious days of postwar passenger travel. Demographically, it's worth pointing out, too, that there are still a lot of us around who actually remember riding these trains; we're at the top of our income now and actively looking for retirement hobbies. If Kato does the El Capitan, I'll buy two sets in an instant. And watching them navigate my layout, I'll recapture my memories of riding the El Cap from Los Angeles to Denver in 1963. I do hope somebody from Kato is reading this thread... best wishes Bryan Pfaffenberger Charlottesville, VA
Bryan, Very well articulated. I think there are a lot of people out there who run a specific road(s), but many of these same people also like to sit back at times and just watch trains run. Plenty of people take the liberty of coupling up an Super Chief on a D&RGW layout, or a UP streamliner on their Pennsy. One can't model the whole country with our small spaces. We can all appreciate the different roads and how nice these trains looked just running by. Plenty of people will buy a well-done set. Our market is starved for them. The CZ and SC are huge successes. I hope the manufacturers realize ya gotta produce the whole train. Coming out with a sleeper just won't cut it. Walthers is missing the big picture here. They are certainly taking he easy way out--read: cheaper---by "producing" all these road with the same tooling. But agin, they are missing the big picture. That is why as much as people may dislike Kato for procing only western roads, they respect Kato for producing an excellent product, and many buy it simply because it looks so good.
Extra cars as well Produce full trainsets by all means so we don't miss out on any cars for the train if they are put out a car at a time, but also sell 'revenue' cars like baggage, coach or sleepers seperately. You can use a few extra of these, but you don't want to have to buy extra observations or diners etc. to get the cars you want.
Just an after thought, I was getting some equipment out of the box and curiousity set in. I looked at the back of one of my Kato Passenger sets and discovered that a Pennsy Passenger group is out there somewhere. Now we need some NYC, N&W, N&S and etc, etc. Oh well! Sigh...
Actually what we need/want could include: Broadway Limited et al (PRR) The Capital Limited et al (B&O-Reading-CofNJ) Champion (PRR-RF&P-ACL-FEC) City of Los Angeles et al (C&NW-UP) City of Miami (IC-CofGA-ACL-FEC) City of New Orleans et al (IC) City of St Louis (Wabash-UP) Colorado Eagle (MP-D&RGW) The Columbian (B&O) Dixie Flagler (C&EI-L&N-NC&StL-ACL-FEC) Eagles - several (MoPac) The Empire Builder et al (CB&Q-NP-SP&S) The Georgian (L&N-NC&StL) The Gilt Edge (NYNH&H) Golden State Limited (CRI&P-SP) Hiawathas - several (CMStP&P) The Hummingbird ((L&N) The Midnight Special et al (Monon) The Rebel et al (GM&O) Rockets - several (CRI&P) The Silver Comet et al (PRR-RF&P-SAL) Southern Bell (KCS-L&A) The Southerner (PRR-Southern) The South Wind (PRR-L&N-ACL-FEC) Sunset Limited et al (SP) El Capitan et al (Santa Fe) Tennessean (PRR-Southern-N&W) Texas Zephyr (C&S-FW&DC) Twentieth Century Limited (NYC) Zephyr Rocket (CB&Q-CRI&P) Zephyrs - several (CB&Q etc) These are noteworthy diesel streamliners only. Feel free to add/delete. Heavyweight or with steam could be a whole other category. Ben
Kato would do really well to simply re-issue the UP cars in other roads, just like they did in the past, with those matching E-8s also. All those nice smoothside sets they did years ago; the NYC, the UP, the B&O, the SP, the Milwaukee, the 70s amtrak, etc., and even the PRR. No new tooling needed! Wrong cars? You bet! But there is a VAST majority that, when faced with an entire beautifully painted 10 car train, with matching E-8s, would buy em up like crazy - wrong or not! I would buy an ENTIRE NYC 10 car train with matching E-8s in a heartbeat! I don't care 'bout no stinking correct windows, etc. Pretty sells! I know, I know, we expect more. All prototype cars are great! Don't get me wrong. I never want to see Kato give that up. I'd just be so happy to see them out again! It seems a no brainer to me. Its just that if I were Kato, it'd be EASY Money! For cars that were "wrong", I NEVER see stacks of those cars hanging around ANYWHERE! Heck, I just got a Milwaukee 10 car set at a show AND LOVE 'EM! Case in point.
I like 'pretty' passenger trains too...but... I have much rolling stock and loco's which were wrong in some minor details... but acceptable. I also have some rolling stock which is just totally wrong and I didn't know it until after I did some research or someone elso told me. If a more prototypical model become available for the same car or locomotive I will opt to buy the new item and get rid of the not-so-prototypical stand-in. Most of the time manufacturers will issue 'near' prototypical trains just to get their investment back in the tooling. To a certain extent... while I don't like it... I have come to accept that they must do that to continue to do business. There's no doubt that 'pretty' trains have a market... I'd prefer that those 'pretty' trains be done prototypically correct even if they cost a bit more. I'll buy those Centrailia Car Shops issues and others which are prototypically correct before buying something that is totally off... at a lower price. Unfortunately... there are manufacturers which are offering premium priced models of both rolling stock and motive power which is not even close to correct. I am amazed that Kato was able to do a very close to perfect California Zephyr set and only charge (discounted) about $16.00 per car. This is a situation that make me wonder about other manufacturers who's products are not as correct yet will charge 25% to 100% MORE for their products. If a product is going to be created incorrectly... charge a lower amount for it. At least... when the consumer becomes aware of the 'fantasy product' they won't be quite as upset with the manufacturer for making it; or at themselves for buying it. BTW... sometimes ignorance is bliss. I really like some of the 'pretty' cars I have purchased... only to become bitter after finding out that they were just 'pump-out' for profit by the manufacturer. Micro-trains was one of those manufacturers which I had once considered a maker of distinctly prototyical equipment... only to find out that they were simply making a bunch of 'close enough' models that look good and run great. Thankfully... I can take solace in the 'run great' aspect of Micro-trains rolling stock.
Panama Limited Kind of surprised you omitted the very last all-Pullman train from your lists, IC's Panama Limited. The Broadway Limited was the next to last. :cat:
A steam powered (N&W's steam was contemporary to most of the diesel above) streamliner conspicuous in its absence is the N&W's Powhatan Arrow. Although not as famous as many of the listed trains from a sales point of view what are people pulling behind their Bachmann Js? (BTW, the Tennessean was pulled by J's on the N&W leg - diesels were not allowed on the N&W then!). ;-) Aside from personal reasons for wanting this, given that Bachmann has just released a pretty nice N&W J, and there is nothing out there to pull behind it that is even close to corrrect (and as a bonus - no decals!) it seems like there is an opportunity for SOME COMPANY to release reasonably accurate passenger cars to pull behind this loco. I would think the market is clearly there. Kato could do an acceptably accurate rendition as the Arrow was an all coach reservation train (no sleepers) - The SS diner is a very good match for the Arrow car, add coaches and observation (also close enough) and presto! (guess which undec Kato passenger cars I own!)
I know what we need! The BCR Royal Hudson, (with matching steamer), The Canadian ( Both Via & CP), The CP Empress, and something I need terribly, because I'm modelling the Niagara Corridor, Via Rail Renaissance Cars! Kato already made the P42's in Via. Oh yah, and for the Via Canadian, they already made the F40PH's, (just not in Via yet :angry Oh yah, and what's the NCL you guys are wanting so bad, I don't know what it is.........:embarassed:
Wow! Think about it. This is it... either s#!+ or get off the pot. Ok maybe that wasn't so nice. But, my point is: NOW is the time to produce these passenger trains as the Baby Boomers...including most of us on the 50's+ side, are the ones who will be buying them. As the new generations come along they won't be buying these luxurious passenger trains. While you and I are trying to recapture our memories. Or, in my situation I regret never having ridden on some of these wonderful trains and I want to re-capture some of that fun, on my layout. For the next generation and generation of modelers to follow, for them it will be Amtrak and Metro railroads. In other words we want the trains we barely remember reproduced on our layouts. Once those of us who do remember are gone the desire to operate these name trains will slowly diminish. Ben, I like the list you produced and the trains mentioned by others. It may be, I hope not, back to our private paint booths and decal sessions I would love to see some N&W and N&S heavy weights and streamline cars produced as well as the Southern Crescent. I do hope someone from Kato, Broadway, Walthers and ConCor are tuned in here, and will plan on producing these treasured passenger trains. As already said, they don't have to be absolutely prototypical although, that would be nice. Edited add on: Bachmann should be added to the list of manufacturers as they have proven without a doubt they can produce quality products. Model Power and Life Like should be added as well with emphasis on "No Re-runs" we need "New" quality products. Maybe, just maybe, together in a bold move, they can produce the trains we want. Not to forget other favorites Microtrains, Intermountain and if I forgot a provider... I pray thee forgive me.
Rick, You would think all those manufacturers would be all over this. Because they are not, there is something that they know that is not so obvious to us. Is the tooling such an expense that it's cost could be deemed as unrecoverable? Sure, they can produce non-prototypical knockoffs, but have we been spoiled with the current prototypical trains to the point that we won't buy repainted and relettered knockoffs? It SEEMS so easy. So why aren't the big manufacturers doing it? I think there is more here than meets the eye. On another note, a source (not Leon) tells me Kato is actually producing our next passenger train as we speak! And they are putting finishing details on what will be the next one---you are looking at maybe the end of '08 for that one. We should get the one being produced now this year. I still stand by it being a Broadway Limited...I think the El Cap will be the next one...both would be welcome in a big way. Oh, once again, an NCL was flatly dismissed...too bad. Maybe someone else can/will do it.
