Like many here, i am a long time model RRer but just getting ready to go DCC, so really appreciate all this talk. I can't help but notice some similarities to car brands discussing- ever see a chevy pick-up with a picture of a little boy peeing on the ford logo in the back window, then a couple days later see a ford pick-up with the same little boy peeing on a chevy logo? Also, i think maybe you computer/electronic wizards don't really understand how quickly you can loose us amatures with your terminology-you think in that manner and take it for granted, but we don't have any idea about a lot of the theory- i'm a psychologist and deal in the abstracts of the human mind, and greatly value learning from you guys in the DCC area, but please remember, it IS complicated when you're new and not grounded in your field. Thanks for bringing us novices along, but try to keep it simple! Curt
Since you are a psychologist, I don't have to tell you about language and the professions - sort of like learning a new language. For example, care to explain what the Freudian concept of "reaction formation" is to a lay person. And as to schools of thought, do you care to eleborate on the early purges the Freudians and Freud did to their not so Freudian adherents, such as Adler, Jung, Horney, etc? Or computers, anyone care to talk about which system is better, Macs or the Gates empire. I can remember my first lessons in computers back in the 80's. "So your hard drive is the C drive" he said. So I asked: "Why is it a C drive if it is the primary location of all your programs. Why not call it the A drive?" "Well" he replied not so patiently, "because that's what they decided to call it. So get your floppy disk..." So I asked: "but my floppy disk isn't floppy, its hard...." You get the idea. And if your early computer ran DOS, well you know what happens if you don't spell the commands correctly in DOS. Their is no escaping the language in DCC. My favourite term to dislike was the CV or "change variable." You could hear me exclaim loudly and and perhaps a bit snarly that it was some idiot techy who dreamed that term up. But after being boisterous for a while and all knowing, I decided I would come up with a better term, I figured any idiot could... so lets see "the Change thing ma bobby..." or the "Changer"... or the "input changer"...on and on it went. Later I decided the "change variable" worked just fine, thank you very much....lol. I had left Vancouver to visit Chicago to take some courses at the Adlerian Institute. At a bar, I met a guy who bragged he had never left Chicago all his life. I couldn't help but think that if it was me, I would be embarrassed to make that statement. But he was comfortable in his own world, and didn't want it to broaden. And so it is with DCC. It is it's own little world, and you have to take it on its own merit, at least in the early days of its development, which is where we are at now. And just as some don't ever want to leave Chicago, some won't want to visit DCC. And that is their loss, as it really is an interesting world, beyond the boundaries they have set in their own mind.
Congraulations new and old DCCers, this post is the longest thread in the history of DCC on trainboard. I'm suggesting that it go into the best of trainboard when we're done. There is a ton of good info here. And it's a lot more real than any magazine article because it's written by real people and not by professional writers. Keep it going
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rsn48: My favourite term to dislike was the CV or "change variable." <snip> some won't want to visit DCC. And that is their loss, as it really is an interesting world, beyond the boundaries they have set in their own mind.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> CV - Constant Velocity. Oops wrong world - what bugs me about Change Variable is the redundancy of the term - but I come form the software world and changing variables is, well constant Anywho - I know DCC is the way to go with the next layout. I was truly sold when I witnessed a head-on collision between two engines on an HO scale DCC layout (slow speed, nothing was damaged.) but that's one of those real world dangers that all of a sudden you have to worry about in your modeling world. The only way that could happen in DC is if you have a loco wired backwards.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rsn48: Or computers, anyone care to talk about which system is better, Macs or the Gates empire. I can remember my first lessons in computers back in the 80's. "So your hard drive is the C drive" he said. So I asked: "Why is it a C drive if it is the primary location of all your programs. Why not call it the A drive?" "Well" he replied not so patiently, "because that's what they decided to call it. So get your floppy disk..." So I asked: "but my floppy disk isn't floppy, its hard...." You get the idea. And if your early computer ran DOS, well you know what happens if you don't spell the commands correctly in DOS. Their is no escaping the language in DCC. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, I know what the newbies interested in DCC mean about the terminology. However, remember, there is no such thing as a stupid question. There are only so many ways you can rationally express "then you mess with the hoochieflop, to get it to..." and really get your point across. I guess to go further with some of this stuff like CV's would be simple Q&A's as the questions come. PT isn't physical therapy. It's a programming track. A separate piece of track, doesn't have to be on the layout, that you put a loco on to program your decoder. A lot, most of your programming is done here. Next you have "Operations mode programming" or programming on the main (POM). Depending on the system/decoder, this is/isn't available, and varius functions can be set here. Usually these include running functions, like speed trim adjustments, lighting function changes (special effects or the use of certain buttons to operate lights and such) and double heading and MU'ing. Simply, in advanced systems like Lenz, if you have several locomotives you want to pull a consist-you would use POM to MU them into one operating chunk, by simply starting with your lead locomotive. You assign a two digit MU number (usually the lead loco's last two digits of the road number), then drive up the next loco, assign that same 2 digit MU address, tell if you want that loco to run ITS forward front or backwards, then move to locomotive #3 in the lashup. etc, etc. You don't touch them, you don't put them on the programming track, you just pull them into position on the rails, "assign the paperwork" in your DCC controller, and run them!!!! You now would use the MU Address to control this lashup. The individual locomotives in the lashup can have their individual functions operated by simply selecting their NORMAL individual address on the system. (usually their road number). So, you want the lights off, but for the lead loco. If you have a sound decoder in one unit, you can call up that loco, and set the sound, run the bell, whistle, etc. without messing with the speed and direction settings of the lashup. If you had two 'helpers' at the rear, and wanted to pull them off, you could just remove their road numbers from the MU list. Or, they could have their own MU list if you preferred. Your choice! Well, I hope that wasn't techie. It not only explains the two programming modes, but shows an operating example how it would be used to make up, and run a multiple lashup of locomotives, and the individual control you can still maintain over each unit, even though to 'run' them, you simply select one address, forward or reverse, and speed as though you were running one locomotive alone with a handheld throttle. "Custom speed curves" are another feature. They can seem scary, but are usually set with 28 speed values. Each value is a consecutively higher speed. With them, you can 'tune' a locomotive all the way through it's speed range, as electric motors don't respond in an exact speed change as more voltage is applied. This can tailor the speed to be more consistant at each throttle setting, allowing smoother operation, and also to make loco's run better together, by tailoring several of them to run at the same speed at all throttle settings. If the decoder supports POM, you can turn this function on or off, as desired-or leave it on all the time. It's an optional setting. So is setting the minimum starting speed. Most of us prefer to use 128 speed steps. Each step is smaller, and smoother control is noticed. I'll refer to 28 steps for simplicity. Minimum speed (voltage) is one of the favorite CV's to set in a decoder, next to the address and lighting controls. When you go from "stopped" (step 0) to the first of 28 throttle settings, you want your loco to start in step one, not have to turn your throttle 1/4 the way around the dial!! Well, you can tailor that. It's easy. You just tune your loco, see what speed step it consistantly starts in, and put the setting in the appropriate CV (usually CV2) that causes the loco to start as soon as you move the throttle one 'notch'. You have immediate, consistant, minimum slowest speed as soon as you move your throttle, making switching and realistic slow speed operation much easier. Now your probably getting a feel for this CV thingy. It's simply a place in the decoder (like a file or folder in your pc [that's personal computer, NOT politcally correct]) that is numbered, and depending on what a decoder CAN do, you change numeric settings in that CV number to do certain things. Don't worry about them, unless you want to change something. Once set, forget them! Just run your trains. I won't get too much more involved with certain CV's that have multiple settings. CV 1 is your loco address, but it only holds two numbers. CV2 is usually your minimum start speed. Some decoders (most new ones) support four digit road numbers, but they don't go in CV1. They go elsewhere, and it involves three CV's to set. My system, Lenz, lets me simply go to "PRO" for programming, select "ADR" for address, and punch in the address I want-two or four digit. It automatically does all the magic calculations for two of the CV's necessary for a four digit, and properly sets the three proper CV's. Wala! No rocket science! See, your system can work FOR you, to simplify the hard stuff!!! I can also reset a CV or the whole decoder to default values, if I mess something up with the push of a button. No looking things up on charts, having to manually enter stuff. Yeah, it seems spooky. But it's not. Instead of doing a simple 'glossary' of a couple terms, I used some examples, so you can see how I would use my system, to make things do what I want them to, by simply messing with the hoochiedings that do different things, and how the money I paid for my system can make it simpler for me to set up and operate my trains. Once set, you just run the trains. It's like a computer. You MAY not need to know a lot about this, but if you get a computer, and only know how to get around windows, you can't find a lot of things because you STILL need to understand 'basic DOS directory structure' to understand WHERE windows is putting things!!! That's what CV's are. Things the decoder does, is in certain CV's. You simply turn them on or off, by setting a value. Once you understand how to do something simple, like change ONE multiple bit that can be set in CV29 to make the OTHER end of your locomotive the FRONT, you pretty much have most of the understanding of how to do any of the complex stuff needed to program a decoder. It's simple number values, taken from a chart for your decoder, and added up to be put in this particular CV. My system will also allow me to see and set one of these values without having to add them up. These individual settings are a "bit" in the CV. Sound like a computer? It is! It runs on software. Each value tells the decoder to do this, this, not this, but we then want this. What are thises?? examples-not in order would be, reversing headlights, loco runs forward normal, you can dim the operating headlight using a function button on your controller. If you loco runs the wrong way forward, you don't rewire the decoder in the loco, you change the setting to make the decoder run the OTHER end as front in the decoder! Simple! If you have your trottle run 'forward', in speed step 12, (28 steps remember?) your loco will run with the short hood a certain direction, about half speed. If you pick it up, turn it around, it will continue in the direction of the hood it WAS going, at the same speed. The decoder knows which end of the loco is which!!! I hope this makes things seem a bit less confusing, while I did get wordy on you all. <G> Just look at the separate paragraphs, don't try to see it as one big story. It's not, but you see the references in the little parts that are similar, and they're already starting to sink in-IF I explained this well enough to make sense. If not, say so, and I will try to detail or elaborate in other terms. Different systems do different things, or in slightly different ways. Advanced systems do mostly the same things, it's HOW they do them that varies. It's like hopping in someone else's car. Where are the lights? the wipers? the cig lighter? OK!!! Let's go. Best, Paul
I don't know what's popular, only what I have used or seen - so far that's a grand total of three layouts - two using NCE/System One and one using Easy DCC (OK two using Easy, but both were owned by the same guy, so I kinda count them as one) The resistance to DCC seems stronger down here as the prices are twice what they pay in the USA. For me so far I can only think of two real drawbacks to DCC - one is cost (however on really large or complicated layouts the cost is offset by less complicated and less expensive wiring) and the other is the annoyance of what happens when something derails and shorts the system (everything stops until the short is corrected) So - operating a DC layout the most unprototypical thing you hear frequently is "who's got my train?" - in DCC it's replaced with a sudden stop and EVERYONE in unison saying "Short!"
There is a solution to the "all the trains stopping at once" problem. But the solution escapes me, but basically there is a unit that controls up to four areas, add as many as you need, and each area will shut down without taking the others with it. Also comes back on quickly. If you really need to know, go to the digitrax Yahoo group and they will tell you. We in Canada also pay more for our goodies, maybe not quite as much as you, but almost. A $64 item USA will cost $100 here. Makes for slow decoding of engines in N scale. I have three SD90's on hold and the bill will be around $450 for them (before taxes). In the US, using mail order, I could have got the three for $210. Still DCC is the way of the future. I keep using the anology of the model air craft that used to fly using two strings and you rotated in a dizzying circle flying them. Now they use radio controlled goodies and you don't see anyone going in a circle flying their air craft. Too me, block control is flying an air craft in a circle, except on some layouts it can be more like a chinese puzzle.....lol.
The way the shorting problem was explained to me: It brings down the booster that is controlling that section of layout - if you only have one booster (on small or some medium sized layouts) then the whole system comes down - however you are correct in that the moment the short is cleared everything starts right back up as if nothing happened. (It's not like you have to reboot your layout.) I don't think there is a way to eliminate that problem entirely, other than minimizing derailments with well maintained track and equipment. And don't drive into misaligned turnouts. The other complaint is about the complexity of it. I will accept that from people I meet who don't use computers - but here in Cyberspace - I'm sorry, if you managed to join trainboard you have the technical expertise to handle DCC. Look, I don't know how it works exactly but I drive trains with it just fine. I also have no idea how microwaves make the crust on my pizza all rubbery. If you want on board sound that is synced to your loco's drivers or operating mars and ditch lights or you want to speed match every loco for easy consisting - then that can start to be complicated (as can DC) - but if you just want to run trains DCC is the way to go.
RSN48 was referring to the PM4 or Power manager 4 from Digitrax. This unit splits the output from a single booster into 4 separate sections. Each section can be used as a circuit breaker, or an autoreversing device. When used as a circuit breaker, it cuts off power to the district where a short is detected before the entire booster can shut down, thus only one section of the layout is affected (of course, gaps have to be cut in the rails to separate the sections electrically). The other solution is to have separate boosters wired to each track district. This is the expensive way to go.
Don't take this as a knock on DCC, it isn't meant to be. Also, I don't want to scare anyone off. Over the past two months, myself and my club have been preparing for DCC. Some of my remarks count for club level, others just for the individual. I am doing both. Ayway, for most DCC systems, the price you see advertised is the price that gets you in the door. There are other things to consider that add more on to the price. Wiring. Unless you have 14 gauge wire or better, you better plan on buying some new wire. I plan to use two bus wires. I have a 10x10 layout so I figured one 140 ft of 12 gauge wire. This doesn't include the drops. So, this was a minor cost of about $12. For drops you can get bye with 18 or 20 gauge wire. So keep the wire you plan remove. The recommendation is to put drops on each side of each section of track. Decoders. This can get pricey. Anywhere from your basic function for around $20 up to $150+ for a fancy sound decoder. This does not include installation. The installation varies per loco and decoder. Figure $30-$40 per install if you don't want to do it yourself. Power Supplies. What your system didn't come with one? Well you have to have one. Figure $35 minimum for a power supply. This will take care of most home layouts, but if you have a big club layout. Well our club required 7 - 5amp supplies. We do have a 26 x 60 ft ho layout, however. Also you may want to purchase power shields. These help prevent your layout from going down big time in case of short. If you have reversing loops or turntable consider spending about another $35. If you don't have the rev loop or tt figure on spending about $25. Also very important If you get a power supply from Tony's Train Exchange, you better go to Radio Shack or a good electronics store and buy a metal utility cabinet to put it in. This will cost you about $5-10. Why? Tony's Power Supply contains some exposed wire and contacts. The only warning about this is that 120 volts can be lethal, or something to that effect. The last thing you want is a young child or pet getting to close and sticking something in the power supply. Throttles. Ahh yes! You say only got one for your system. That's ok if you are a lone wolf, but if you have guests or children who want to operate, well plan on at least getting one or two additional throttles at around $35 per, give or take a few dollars. This is for large clubs. You may want to buy another command station or system. This is for backup (something always goes wrong at shows ). But the main reason is that when you have the layout out running with several operators you may have a member come in and want to program his loco. So he switches system to programing track and the whole layout goes down while this guy is programing his CV's. All in all I am glad I went DCC. It will allow me to have more fun and freedom with my kids and friends. I will no longer have to go around and throw, block switches for my kids to run trains. I just have to look out or the cornfield meets I am looking forward to the fun (system is not completely in yet). I just wish, there would be more information from the manufacturers on what is needed and how much it will cost you. [ 03 July 2001: Message edited by: ajy6b ] [ 03 July 2001: Message edited by: ajy6b ]
The post above about what you have to add on to DCC to get it useable is about right on. This is why for a beginner, the sooner you get into DCC the better, and the more money you save. First off, those MRC power packs that most of us buy are just to wimpy for DCC. If you start out in DCC, the money you spend on your power pack for it will easily be the same or less than all the MRC power packs you end up buying. Yes, you need more throttles with DCC, but you need them for most layouts anyhow. So rather than end up with 6 throttles that are useless on DCC, just go directly to DCC and save your money. Decoders - yes, they can actually, for some, be the big expense, so if you start out decoding all your engines right from the start, you don't have to "catch up;" trust me, a real pain in the you know where. If you start from the start to decode, then you will probably be looking at engines with plug and play (saving you the cost of having to convert "old" engines). DCC is only getting bigger and better; I can't imagine where it will be five years from, a life time and a half in the computer world.
I too am planning on upgrading to DCC. The info I have obtained on this board thus far has been outstanding. My question is this: Why have I heard so little on the atlas-master system ? Also, why do some refer to the atlas system as being the lenz system ? Are they the same ? Pat
To answer your second question first, the Atlas DCC system is made by Lenz. There are several reasons you hear so little about the Atlas DCC system. First, it is new and so not that many people have experience with it. Next, it is a limited system. It does not have all the capabilities of larger systems such as those offered by Digitrax, NCE, Wangrow, Lenz, etc. The full featured systems offer long locomotive addresses (4 digit vs 2 digit), more functions for controlling sound decoders, macros, and more. A lot of people who buy MRC and Atlas systems will end up changing over to a more capable system in the future when they find out what the limits are.
The Atlas system can work for some but not all. It isn't full featured, but it does make available a "reasonable" system for some one who wants to get in at a low level. The problem is that when you come into DCC it is difficult for you to know what you want. After you get in, you discover you want things you didn't think you would want - more features and benefits. Thus if you are into a system that is completely operational, in the sense that it can handle all that DCC has to offer, then if you want to extend your utilization of DCC, you have that option. With Atlas, you might discover you can't go where you want to go in the future.
