The first one is the ATLAS DCC and the second one is the Digitrax Empire II. I understand that the Atlas is a basic starter and the Empire is two steps above this, but the price differance between the Genisis and the Empire is small 50.00 I think. Which of these systems would you all recommend. [ 15 May 2001: Message edited by: TC ] [ 15 May 2001: Message edited by: TC ][/QB][/QUOTE] Go straight to the Lenz 01 or 02 set. I have the Commander, have dealt with Digitrax decoders, and upgraded to the Lenz 01 set. The V3 is a far superior set for features, and useage. It is compatible to most DCC systems out there, including Wangrow, NCE, Roco, and any others using Xpressnet. There are virtually no major help quesions a month at the Yahoo Lenz site. At the Digitrax site, these at times push 2000 a month. Some of the issues I see regarding Digitrax is even their famed Loconet crashing and multiple operators getting erronious control commands to the locos. Lenz has all the features available that Digitrax does and then some, including computer control. I am so pleased with it, and it's performance, I have another 01 set in the works right now for my eventual second layout in the barn. I find the system painless, and trouble free. Plus the massive warranty they offer, compared to the other manufacturers. It's even idiot proof for several years (decoders too!) Try that with Digitrax. Paul
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lindalace9: Ultimately, I would like to have one throttle (knob) for each locomotive that is running. And, if I wish to throw a switch or blow a whistle, I would like to push one button. Am I making any sense guys?[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yup perfectly clear. With Xpressnet, the adding of components is simple. Also, if you shop components from the same dealer, you'll find features in decoders same as the competition, and less money in Lenz than Digitrax and others. You'll buy one system, but lots of decoders!!! The new version out, V3 is vastly different than the previous version. I was reading the article in the June or July 2001 RMC, and according to them, it puts Lenz back over the top, and blows away the competition. Go get a copy!! It's manual is easy to understand, and step by step. MUing, doubleheading, whatever you want. Will automatically program or reset decoders for you if you wish. Locos in stack can be cleared, or left in (up to 256?) allowing instant recall of the last locos. Paul
I researched the DCC question for my club. We ended up going with NCE as it had better documentation, more capabilites and the throttle jacks could be made almost idiot proof with the phono jacks. As a result I purchased a NCE DCC system myself, two additional throttles and a power supply with reverse loop protection. Obviously the reason I went with NCE was the support I would have with fellow club members. Support is important. Why did we go with NCE? Full NMRA compliance (the higher priced Digitrax units are still working on this). Excellent documentation (no need to spend an additional $25 to get Digitrax's Big Book). Ease of programing with the ability to lock out certain features (very handy at club level). Also the ability to control up to 6 consists at one time (If you really think you are that coordinated ) Also NCE was designed by model railroaders who are making it easy to install future improvements. I am not knocking Digitrax, but there are systems that may be more suitable. Digitrax right now has been able really advertise and make it into the modeling press. Good marketing doesn't necessarily mean a good product. Anyway, as far as support, if you buy from a good dealer such as Loy's Toy's orTony's Train Exchange, and check your internet forum's you shouldn'thave too many problems. [ 31 May 2001: Message edited by: ajy6b ]
Paul & AJY.....please guys, keep up the commentary. In trying to arrive at a good choice I have eliminated Digitrax and I was leaning toward CVP Products. I like a stationary control center but with plug in jacks that can be mobile when I wish....jacks that are battery free.
I note two distinct camps for DCC. One is Digitrax and the other is Lenz. The others are a very distant Third. Each camp says you get more "Bang for the Buck" with their preference. I hear one is simpler and the other better for expansion. All this is quite interesting and makes good reading. However, as the topic says, New to DCC means understanding some of the points being made is difficult. Specific attributes based on actual usage would be great. I have built the Atlas N18(formally n-109)layout from their book. It uses four DC controllers for operation, rarely can you use more than two. It has one reversing loop. I plan to expand with a 4 X 8 board and sweeping track to allow passenger train operation. I have no specific prototype I model. All this is "N" scale. I would like to have automatic operation as much as possible. The biggest problem I have, my lack of concentration, is that I consistantly forget to throw turnouts and have derails when least expected. Automatic turnouts that prevent this would be nice. I think routing would be nice but probably not necessary. I will run five to eight trains at the most. Lenz or Digitrax? Mike
Being in the Digitrax camp, I would recommend a Digitrax base system because of the Loconet and its direct interface with the Digitrax DS-54 switch controller (aka stationary decoders) and their BD-1 and BDL-16 detection boards. These all connect directly with the loconet providing information to each other. In other words, a lot less wiring. You can program them to automatically activate turnouts when a train is detected or you can use software such as Winlock, Railroad & Co, or others to handle the logic and automatically control the trains and turnouts. In fairness to all the other DCC manufacturers, it doesn't really matter which base system you use. The big thing to implement your desires is detection. The only product that I am aware of is the Digitrax BD-1 and BDL-16. You can use both of these detector boards with any brand of DCC. I have heard that Zimo offers a complete control system but you would have to research it. I know that Tony's Train Exchange carries that brand. There are other stationary decoders available but most do not provide feedback. Again, go to Tony's website. He has a discussion of all the stationary decoders and all their different pluses and minuses. Good luck. ncng
Knowing what I know now, here is how I would make my decision, if I were to start from scratch with the knowledge I have. You will have other priorities, but here is one man's thought process: 1) What is the dominate system in my area? I want to be able to talk to human quickly if I am having problems, and be able to show him the problem in living person (not the net). 2) The most advanced system I can afford, this will allow me to have options I may use in the future, but I don't know if I want to use them now. 3) The easiest system to use. 4) The cheapest "best" system. 5) The system that is most likely to be here 30 years from now (this one is hard to call). 6) Who is introducing "change" the most, this implies listening to the market place. 7) Who honours the warranty and provides strong support service. 8) Equipment retention - can what I buy now be used latter in the future, or will it be obsolete? 9) Popularity - can I talk to others about the system I have and have them understand the problems and offer solutions from a distance (the net). 10) Will it operate all the functions that are accessible in a quality decoder? Digitrax or Lenz? I think you will be happy with either. In the DCC field, I think it is important to have strong competition as it shakes up the market place and ensures that needed changes are forth coming. As to "express net" or "loco net", I haven't heard anything convincing on either side. Both seem to work quite well. Both sides have strong supporters, but this is a good thing, because this means happy owners. So which ever side you land on, the chances are good you will be happy. You might want to consider "power routing" as it will be even handier when we run our trains by computer (especially when we are alone and want some traffic blowing by to offer a challenge while switching, etc.).
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lindalace9: Chris.......What does it mean....."to change CV's ?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hi Linda. CV stands for "configuration variable". Every engine decoder ( and with Zimo track section modules, switch control modules and even main control stations!) can be changed the way it operates by changing those CV's. CV's are values stored in the engine decoder. The decoder needs those values so it knows what to do. For example: If you push the F1 button on Your cab, the decoder knows to turn the front headlight on if the direction of travel is forward, the rear headlight if in reverse. By changing this particular CV number the decoder would reverse the ligthing (front headlight when backing up, rear headlight when going forward). Those CV's can be changed by use of your cab or with a computer. There are a lot of things that can be changed, not just lighting. For more information go to this website and download a Zimo-Decoder manual: http://www.zimo.at/MX60M2000E.PDF For general info on Zimo and STP (computer software) see this website: www.mrsonline.net Hope that answers some of Your questions. Art
Linda, I'm sorry it's taken me so long to reply, I've had to go back to work 24/7 and since it's my company I can't really complain. Aleuch(sp?) pretty well answered your question. CV's are there for you the user to customize the way your 'engine' or 'stationary' decoder works. For example, I've got an old brass 2-8-4, and before I felt comfortable about drilling holes in it, I asked a friend to wire in front and rear marker lights. I had a soundtraxx decoder installed already, so all he did was use the green wire for the front markers and the brown marker for the rears. (using the blue as common for both), well this meant that I had to push F1 to light up the front markers and the F5 to light up the rear markers. So I reprogrammed the CV in charge of F5 to be active whenever F1 was pushed. You also use CV's to alter the starting voltage, the amount of acceleration,braking, and a whole bunch of other controls. Now this doesn't mean you have to know all this before you start. In fact it was almost 3 months of running in 'factory default' before I started fooling around with some of the CV's. I think it'll be about 3 years before I learn how to make them sing 'dixie'. The first CV you'll learn how to change is CV1 that's the number you assign to your loco. All mobile decoders come with the factory setting of 03, so if you want to have more than one loco running at the same time you have to change at least one of the loco's to a different address. The first night I hooked up my Lenz system, it took 8 minutes, and I had 3 engines running at the same time, didn't do that again for a while, it was a little scary. Hope this helps.
Linda, Sorry for the wait on the reply, just busy I guess. Anyway the prior posts are right on the CV's. As for the plugs. NCE allows for the option to use the 1/4 phono jack plugs. (These are the size of plug that can fit into you big stereo system at home). These big plugs can take beating as our club experience has shown. Our club went from Dynatrol to CTC80 to Railcommand and now to DCC. We have had different types of plugs over the years and the 1/4 inch plugs gave us less hassle. We did not have many problems with the plugs or recepticles going bad. Whereas, other systems had the phone jacks (we also have a straight DC MRC 20 that we can run) we had problems with the plastic plugs breaking or the wires in the recepticle going out. But again you have to consider that we can have several operator's running on the track at the same time, plugging and unplugging their throttles or walking to the next spot and forgetting to unplug. The big quarter inch plug is what would work. Tony's Train Exchange and NCE sell the adapter to change the NCE throttle to the 1/4 inch plug. EasyDCC also uses the same type of plug. Basically because they can use a two wire throttle bus. Digitrax uses the 6-wire plug for their system and it won't convert to the 1/4 inch phono type plug. Also what sold us on NCE was it's ease of use and recommendations from other clubs, and the fact that NCE will provide free upgrades (for a limited time) once you purchase and register their system. You can get more information on this at their website. (Do a web search for North Coast Engineering). CVP makes a good product as well. However CVP(EasyDCC) does not make any decoders. Their philosophy is to work on the command and throttle function and you buy the decoder from someone else. Good luck. [ 06 June 2001: Message edited by: ajy6b ]
Aluesch, I did go to the web site you specified some time ago. I must confess I never heard of the system before. Advertising is not that dominant in MR and my local stores just aren't that familiar with it. Having said that it could be a superior system but it has an uphill battle to get the brand recognition that Digitrax and Lenz (Atlas) have. Because I am insecure in my own electronic abilities, I like to have others close to me who are running similiar systems so I can cry on their shoulder. I wish the system you discussed luck and if it is superior that it win out in the market place. Rick Nicholson
Hi RSN48- Good points. I'll elaborate on my experiences and the Lenz system using them as a template. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rsn48: Knowing what I know now, here is how I would make my decision, if I were to start from scratch with the knowledge I have. You will have other priorities, but here is one man's thought process: 1) What is the dominate system in my area? I want to be able to talk to human quickly if I am having problems, and be able to show him the problem in living person (not the net). Dominant system in my area is another brand. The dealer I deal with, has nothing favorable to say about it or it's manufacturer, and I tend to have more info to share on DCC in my small time using DCC than they have. Other options available? A club, using that system is hard for me to schedule time to go and interact with them. Hence, I have no support but the internet. (minimum distance one way is 30 miles to either) 2) The most advanced system I can afford, this will allow me to have options I may use in the future, but I don't know if I want to use them now. Many have said (not necessarily here) "Digitrax did this first, that first, etc". Well, Lenz developed the DCC system around 1990. (it's on their site) any and all features up to and including computer interface (which will use any of the similar softwares used by Digitrax and others) allowing anything from dispatching to full control of computers is available. It is temporarily out of production, while being redesigned, due back by August. They have specific control interfaces available to control turnouts, multiple turnout routes, etc. Their system has/is developing true dual mode N decoders, mobile (loco) decoders with feedback and stationary (turnout and accessory decoders) with feedback. Feedback is one which is capable of such things as showing turnout position, as well as a trains exact location and actual scale speed at the throttle or control panel. Optional detectors of course are needed for trackside light controls, and train detection. Reversing loops are not a problem, and modules are there for them also. Radio throttles are available as 'plug in' units, if not from Lenz now-from others now. The unit is plug and use. It tells you to wire these to these, wire to the track, plug in the handheld, Run the train! Once a brief learning curve of DCC (done with an Atlas Commander) was accomplished (the Lenz is as easy to use), my experience was finding that not only did Lenz have seldom questions to address unless they were highly specialized, that I didn't have to worry about 'log books' other system users mention to keep track of 'quirks, erroneous operation and workarounds' as was mentioned on that system's board. (this just came to my attention) I avoid those decoders, and all others are painless, simple to understand devices fully interchangeable with my system and others. 3) The easiest system to use. The Lenz 01 is designed with automatic programming options. I can automatically program a new decoder, or I can reset the whole decoder or a given CV to default with a simple menu. When programming to a four digit loco address, you merely need to put it in. The system automatically adjusts the proper CV's. Other such conveniences. 4) The cheapest "best" system. Feature for feature, decoder for decoder, I find the Lenz decoders available at a very attractive price compared to competitors, and shopping allows greater savings. While maybe not least expensive all the way around, in the majority of all applications-they are quite reasonably priced, with no lack of features. 5) The system that is most likely to be here 30 years from now (this one is hard to call). Been around for over ten, and their design philosophy is to have components operate reliably for at least ten years without failure. Quite a statement for microprocessors. 6) Who is introducing "change" the most, this implies listening to the market place. There is a major move, and major design improvements of existing, and new components. Once the innovator, as the RMC article states, they are seeking to lead DCC to new and better performance. 7) Who honours the warranty and provides strong support service. Who offers an "oops" warranty?? Lenz. 3 years on decoders, at least one on the system. That is for the "pilot error" of YOU messing something up!!! General failure is covered for a much longer time, upwards of 10 years. I shorted a motor lead on a tight N install for my first decoder. No return postage, nothing. "When did you buy it? send it back!" Same for the 01 set. 8) Equipment retention - can what I buy now be used latter in the future, or will it be obsolete? While I can't speak of specifics of backwards compatibility, there has been offered vigorous upgrades to keep you up to date with your Lenz system, from user applied updates to factory refurbishing of systems to newer specs. 9) Popularity - can I talk to others about the system I have and have them understand the problems and offer solutions from a distance (the net). Yes. (unless they have eight fingers on each hand, number in numeric and alpha sequences and wear hexidecimal glasses) 10) Will it operate all the functions that are accessible in a quality decoder? Definately! No limitations to the functions available, or the ease of setting 'momentary' functions-used for horn, bell, or other sound (and other) special functions used in a prototypical manner during operation. Atlas won't dim a headlight, as it has no F4. Adding a better throttle, it will. But it can eventually be used as an add on throttle to a Lenz system. Digitrax or Lenz? I think you will be happy with either. I'll avoid the references to log books cited by users to troublshoot and log workarounds for Digitrax decoders on Digitrax systems. In the DCC field, I think it is important to have strong competition as it shakes up the market place and ensures that needed changes are forth coming. Yes, this is true! As to "express net" or "loco net", I haven't heard anything convincing on either side. Both seem to work quite well. Both sides have strong supporters, but this is a good thing, because this means happy owners. So which ever side you land on, the chances are good you will be happy. Except for the people posting at Digitrax forum how loconet is misaddressing locomotive consistantly, and multiple users need to refrain from making consist changes simultaneously. You might want to consider "power routing" as it will be even handier when we run our trains by computer (especially when we are alone and want some traffic blowing by to offer a challenge while switching, etc.).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If I'm not mistaken, this is a software application, and added to detectors on the layout, would be more than capable with the LI100 Lenz computer interface. Paul
Paul, You did your homework in your reply to me. I think quality rational discussion is helpful for all as I - for one - learn new systems I'm not familiar with; I claim no expertise, or even non-expertise with the Lenz systems. But I'm glad they are around to push to Digitrax and other manufactures. I am convinced that the battle of the DCC companies will only benefit us - the consumer.
I like the discussion I have seen on this page and I hope it is helpful to others as well. However, I still see only one-sided discussions. Either you are for Digitrax or Lenz. There doesn't seem to be anyone capable of an actual comparison based on facts and knowledge. I have found a couple internet dealers that are really PRO Digitrax but have not been able to find any that tought the advantages of the Lenz system, or any other for that matter, other than the individual system web site. Does any one know of some dealers that prefer Lenz over everyone else? Mike
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rsn48: Paul, You did your homework in your reply to me. I think quality rational discussion is helpful for all as I - for one - learn new systems I'm not familiar with; I claim no expertise, or even non-expertise with the Lenz systems. But I'm glad they are around to push to Digitrax and other manufactures. I am convinced that the battle of the DCC companies will only benefit us - the consumer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thanx, RSN. I'm honored. I'm really trying to be more objective and detailed with my replies. I have a decent learning curve when I get into something, I usually go in with both feet to most of my interests. Yes, there are MANY systems that offer great features. Paul
For a user of DCC, it is difficult to get into different systems. In my location with four really decent RR stores, Digitrax, Atlas and MRC are the only realities here. I have never seen a lenz system in person (of course, reviews and pictures in MR). I suspect the same is true for others, it may not be the three listed above, but selection is limited. It seems when MR does a comparison article, about once every three years, it is out of date by the time the issue hits the streets due to changes by the manufacture. Also learning systems (I mean more than just pushing a button to change direction, or turn the headlight on or off) has a curve all of its own. So I haven't met a person who is knowledgeable in the many systems out there. That isn't to say they don't exist, but that they are far and few between. Even with a company as large as Digitrax, the net has been a boon for users who utilize the digitrax yahoo.group forum as for many it is their primary source of information. In the computor world, I always felt for my needs a Mac computer was better than Microsoft. But I am in financial planning and the financial world is solely microsoft turf. Because Apple got greedy and wouldn't let anyone clone it, MS systems beat it out so that the world is predominantly MS. I don't like the dominance MS has, but an advantage is that it keeps the cost of software down as the developers have to only build for two systems - Apple and MS. If there were eight operating systems, then the cost of soft ware would be higher. In the DCC world, I suspect smaller companies will be bought out and eventually we will end up with only two or three choices. Costs - especially marketing costs - are a huge factor in dominant systems. And the little guy has a hard time competing. So twenty years down the pike, I wonder how the scene will have changed.
There are other systems beside Digitrax and Lenz. Wangrow System One and NCE, which are virtually identical and CVP's Easy DCC. Anyway, I am posting this to respond to the person who did not like throwing turnouts. Now, I am talking from only reading the NCE instructions, others may do this too. The NCE will allow you to program macros in your throttle. If you don't know what a macro is, well it is basically one command that generates several different commands in a sequence at once. Anyway, if you have your turnouts hooked up to accessory decoders, you can enter a macro which will align several turnouts with the entry of one command on your throttle. So you can route your trains over different routes in the yard or in the station with the push of one button from your throttle. I hope that helps.
