N-Scale Layout

After years of working on my never before named N-scale model railroad, I have come closer in the last 11 days of vacation time than ever before. I had originally played around with the Atlantic Longhaul Lines in the Atlas Nine Scale model railroad book I bought years ago. I would put it up take it down, and put it back in the ever growing boxes. After much thought this past week I decided to stick to the same book, ( I need to look at pictures) but changed to the smaller Unhinged & Horizontal Atlas track plan. The main reason is I figured I needed to start smaller if I was ever going to get close to completing a layout. Which I have never come close! Anyway I looked for a picture and can't find one on Atlas and need to know if I can scan the picture if I give correct copyright info to Atlas! If not I changed it a bit anyway, and I purchased the great 3rd PlanIt from ElDorado software about 6 month's ago, and will draw it with it. I will also need lot's pf help with 3rd PlanIt! Sorry for the first long note. I am new here and got excited when I found a model railorad board for discussions. Any ideas appreciated!

 

Welcome to trainboard in2golfz! You won't find a friendlier lot of train people anywhere else on the net - and don't feel limited to talking about model trains either - there are plenty of 1:1 scale railroaders here as well

I found both of the plans you mention on the Atlas web site www.atlasrr.com

N-16 Atlantic Longhaul Lines
N-11 Unhinged and Horizontal

Not only is the U&H a simpler design that fits a smaller space (and interior door for benchwork) it is IMHO a better plan - it appears to have a reason to exist:

The yard in the bottom can represent an interchange with a larger railroad or it could simply be "the rest of the world" if you prefer. The train enters the main and there is a station to stop at. A bit further along there is an industry to switch - but it's a facing point spur - this gives you two choices, use the passing siding for a run around or just park the setouts on the passing siding and switch the industry on the way back. If you set up the continuous loop the train can make some mileage stopping at stations along the way (OK, the same stations but we are having fun right?) then eventually take the reverse loop and return back to the yard and "the rest of the world."

As for 3pi - I've been playing around with the demo and I might be able to help you - but there are a few more experienced 3rdPlanIt users around here that I am sure would help you out.

[ 16 July 2001: Message edited by: yankinoz ]</p>

 

In2golfz,

Welcome to Trainboard!

There's a lot of helpful people here.

I am a new user of 3rd Planit also. There is a discussion group for 3rd Planit at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/3rdPlanIt

There are many helpful people there too and Randy the developer of 3rd Planit is on-line also there.

Check out the files area many creative people there and lots of structures and rolling stock to use to detail your layout.

 

Welcome to Trainboards as well from myself. I looked at both plans Rob posted and agree with him that the U&H is a better plan. It doesn't have the appearance of complexity that the other plan has, but the U&H is much more functional, and clearer to understand and use in a more real like (protypical) fashion. If you have a friend over to help you run it, the U&H gives you both some industrial switching in each loop, then returning to the yard with the empties to pick up refills.

More complicated and overlapping track isn't always the best way to go, though initially it may look more appealling. If you have room for a larger layout, maybe modify the U&H and go from there with your new Cad program. Or just have fun with the Cad program and submit what you have developed and post it here for some critique.

 

Thanks for the nice welcome and information you all have provided. I agree that I have a better chance of completing the U&H, and it is alot more less confusing than the other. Having said that, I did change the plan a bit and the switching was becoming overwhelming for me, so I removed most of them for now and will add them when I get a handle on things. I mean I was fliping an Atlas controller switch every few seconds it seemed and toggling a turnout, (by hand none are wired, that's another issue) way more than I could keep up with or understand. So I figured I would get down to the minimum amount of switching until I could grasp the concept and than add or modify them in the future as I understood more. I also am at the point where I had a good time just watching them go around here and there, and need to step back and slow down before I go farther on the plan. I haven't nailed anything down yet so I am going to ge back and fix the 30"x78" bench work a bit so I can remove the legs, maybe add a fascia (sp?) and some other things. I also want to get the 3rd PlanIt CAD design done so you all can see and help me with it.

Thanks for everyones help. What a great group!

 

If you can afford it, you might want to consider going DCC (there is a DCC section in the forum here). This will reduce a number of blocks you will have to throw, if you are running more than one engine (two or more operators). It will also simplify your wiring.

 

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by rsn48:
If you can afford it, you might want to consider going DCC (there is a DCC section in the forum here). This will reduce a number of blocks you will have to throw, if you are running more than one engine (two or more operators). It will also simplify your wiring.<hr></blockquote>

Well I can't really afford it right now. Plus I want to get a grasp on this set up before I go and purchase a large item like DCC. I think it will be OK once I get going and might help me to understand doing some things the hard way when I need to trouble shoot in the future. Do most people paint the layout base before going ahead? Also any ideas on what I need to do know to save me greif in the future is appreciated.

Thanks for your help. This place is great! Just what I needed when working on the layout!

 

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by rsn48:
It will also simplify your wiring.<hr></blockquote>

Including the reverse loop.

 

Although I generally don't recommend MRC DCC, you probably can get a real deal on ebay, as Atlas has taken over the intro market. You would be far better off with MRC than traditional block running. And I suspect you can get one real cheap. Is it as good as the "all grown up" DCC systems? No! But it will start you off admirably, the key is put in good decoders (not cheap ones) even if MRC can't take advantage of all the decoder has to offer, latter when you switch systems, you won't have to re-decode your engines with better decoders with more functions.

 

Alright, remember the U&H from the Atlas book link in one of the post above. I just couldn't resist modifying it a bit and took out the passing siding, ( I think it's called) and made a long straight line on the top of the plan and then had it meet the track back on the right hand loop because I wanted a longer straight away to run my trains. Then I came up with the great idea of making that section rise the entire length of the back of the bench work and than back down again. Only problem is I had no idea that it was going to tilt toward the inside. Do I just need to shim (sp?) the cut out to make it even, and how do I kknow what percent of incline I have? When I read about some plans in MR they describe a 2% grade, etc.... How do I know what is proper and how do I achieve that correct grade? Sorry about all the rookie questions, but I am one : )

 

Calculating grade is simple. Take 100 inches and whatever grade you need (want) then that is how far you have to go. Lets say you want a four inch rise with a two percent grade. Well 2 inches in every 100 inches is a two percent grade. So measure out 100 inches and have it raise two inches over that distance, so 4 inches is 200 inches. I recommend the lazy method. Use 8 feet instead of 100 inches (which is 96 inches), so a four inch rise will require 16 feet (2 inches in every 8 feet, so for it to raise and fall back to the same level, that is raise 4 inches then fall back to zero, would require 32 feet of mainline).

Another trick is to have the lower track dip down, while the upper track goes up, thus giving a 4 inch rise in track, but halfing the distance. So roughly speaking, when the one track starts up (it only needs to go up two inches) the other track starts down, and only needs to go down two inches, now you have in the middle a 4 inch seperation between the two, and you can accomplish that in half the distance.

Just think of inches to every 8 feet, 3 inch rise in 8 feet is a 3 % grade, 4 inche raise in 8 feet is a 4% grade.

This is why helix's are popular. If you want to raise the track 12 inches with a 2% grade, then you need 48 feet of mainline track (2 inches in 8 feet, times 6 so 48) to accomplish that feat (pun intended) going around on a helix. As you can tell from all of this, grades can be real space eaters.

Remember, after you have finished pounding your head on the wall after solving the umpteenth problem, this is normal for layout design, where compromise is a way of life...lol....particularly when space is not as large as you need to accomplish all you want. But you can still have a wonderful layout, and your space is more than adequate for a model railroad that will provide you with much enjoyment.

 

I think I'll just go with the concept that if I like it then it's ok. After all like someone said here it is my layout. But it is still fun learning all this information from the nice people here at Trainboard.com ! The thing is that everything was working great for the most part. Took the track off to paint the top of the bench work and now trains are derailing, blocks aren't working just the way they were, etc... I guess this is just part of the hobby. I am sure I will have many more questions to follow!

Thanks again!

 

Check all your track connections, up close and personal, with magnifying glass if you have one. Run a finger nail across the connections to see how smooth they are. If you have NMRA gauge, check the gauge of your track, sometimes nailing or tacking down N track to tightly will throw it out of gauge.

 

I guess it was a few pieces of track mainly. Also I had bought a brand new Life-like engine a few months back, and when I out it on the track, it worked like a charm. For some reason though the other engine, (one of my favorite) is not doing very well now. Do they get hot? I don't think there is anything in the wheels, but will check. Also, do I out greasem I think it is called on the engine not doing well? Geez.....everything works and then it doesn't! Oh well! I am also going to try to sketch the plan on a piece of paper and put it up. That or one in 3rdPlanIt, but that's take so long! I have several engines that have these same kind of symptoms!

 

in2golfz, May I suggest a couple of ideas that may help you? Thanks, I will then. I have found that too much oil or grease eventually migrates onto the motor commutator which causes the motor to run sporatically, or not at all. That is probably why the older engines do not run as well as the new one. Cleaning the old ones is a rather easy job. (I was going to email you directly and suggest ways to do this, but you have no mail address listed. Sometimes people feel embarrassed, is why I will usually try to email this kind of suggestion off-line, but you are free to email me if you like.)

Because you are starting out, it could help if you go ahead and paint the board base some color of choice, then use a pencil, (NOT a marks-a-lot) to lay out where the track center goes. Go ahead and just use one or two dropps of glue on the turnouts, and place them where they go. (Keep glue away from the moving points of course.)

Then lay in the sections of track between the turnouts until you know how many short sections you may need. Then take a good look and see if by moving a switch a little one way or the other, you can use a full section on either end. That will save having nearly half the shorties.

Get your head down at track level and sight along the rails. Remove any 'kinks' so that all the track 'flows smoothly'. Put a drop of glue on the outside edge of a couple of ties on each section that is aligned smoothly. That will hold them in place while you move a kink and get to 'pinned' in place while the glue dries there; then remove the pins.

Make sure the rails lay flat and level across rail to rail, all along. Any sudden dip or hump can derail the equipment.

At this point, do not lay all the sidings, only one, and put a bumper at the end. Many cars have rolled off the end and onto the floor from this over-site.

Now hook up your power and pick out a cheap anything that will run, to be your "Test Engine", don't risk your good engines falling to the floor yet. Sit down and run the test engine and work out any problem areas, until you get smooth operation on all the track laid so far. Now try a good engine pulling the longest car. Work with the switch, un-coupling and coupling a few cars for a while. It doesn't take long to figure out where you need the un-coupling ramp or magnet. If you go with hand un-coupling, you will quickly find out if you can reach into the yard area easily to do switching.

By the time you get this far, you may wish to move some track. It is easily done with slipping a putty knife under the ties where the dot of glue is, see? You will then realize how much easier it is than if you had glued the whole thing solid in the first place! (You will almost destroy the track trying to salvage it when glued solid, not always successful, either.)

At this point, go back to the Cad program, work out what you want, then go change it. Keep in mind, we ALWAYS (sometimes) draw full scale on the computer, then scale it down to print it out to post on the TrainBoard. The reason is, whatever you design on the computer for real, will quickly tell you if you can do it for real on your layout. Draw in your grades too. When you draw your grade, remember you are working in N scale, so .075" = one foot. (one foot rise in onehundred feet is one percent grade.) SO: draw a horizontal line 7.500" long then draw a vertical line up .075" long. Draw a line from the start of the long line up to the end of the little short line. That is where your track would be going up at one per cent. 2% would be twice the .075" so .150" but the long horizontal line is still 7.500", only the grade got steeper, see?

Here is an N scale layout that was drawn full size on Cad, but has been reduced small enough to be posted here. (Remember you may have to make your lettering 6" tall or more to be seen and read at this posted size!)


Once you get this far, you will be a veteran like all of us, its just finding out "How" it works best for you. When you have it all working, then you cane go back and fasten everything down with ballast, scenery, trees, and post photos as you go along. Don't feel intimidated by some guy's museum quality layout photos. You suit yourself, it is after all, YOUR layout. If you like it, it really doesn't matter one little red Rat's pill what anyone's opinion of your layout is, now does it? (Between you and me, they like mine or I sulk, pout and spit!)

You can post photos of your work in progress, because sometimes we see something that gives us an idea for our own layout, like this one:


[ 20 July 2001: Message edited by: watash ]</p>

 

friscobob - have you sorted out where you are going to stick the stageing? If you can post your version of the U&H please do, we would all love to see it.

 

You can post your layout at www.layoutdepot.com in .ral format in addition to this site. Others could view it until you get a gif here. I'm not familiar enough with right track but another great product is xtrkcad. I used this for the wpf and the neat additional feature is that you can run trains on it!!!! You can check out operations and do some switching puzzles to verify that it will maintain interest after being built. they have demo versions for free. Try it.