Cover feature in the new issue of MR on N scale loco's! All kinds of info. There are performance comparisons etc..... A really good article, I think.
They did a good job with the list but I did find few inacuracys. but oh well, its nice to see a n scale list to follow up the HO one they did a few months ago. Kevin
Please bear in mind these comments are coming from a dealer's prospective. The first 5 paragraphs are among the best we've ever read. The author's explaination of limited runs and why they have become such a necessary evil is thorough and to the point. We also liked the fact that they mentioned how you can still pick up out of production engines in "as new" condition if you look hard enough and are willing to pay around the list price of when the model was issued. We have taken in many quality consignment collections that prove this statement correct. We STRONGLY DISSAGREE with the Author's statement that ATLAS Locomotives are now equal to KATO in quality. This has been debated here on trainboard.com as well as many other forums and each time the answer is the same. KATO is #1 in quality and while ATLAS has made some good strides, they still have quite aways to go to equal KATO. If you look at the end of the article you will find that Paul Graf of ATLAS was cited for help with the article so perhaps this was a courtesy to him by saying that??? Through the years we have seen Kalmbach Publishing print statements in their publications that "stretch the truth" about products produced by their advertisers. We feel this is simply another example of this and in our humble opinion it's poor journalism to say the least. Lastly, we also must question their statement that Jim Conway of CON-COR is an "N-Scale Hero". Yes, at one time CON-COR was producing the best N-Scale money could buy but that was only when KATO was producing the models for CON-COR. The partnership of CON-COR and KATO came to an abupt end one day. We know why this happened but we will refrain from disclosing those details here as we feel it would be inappropriate to do so. Suffice to say that since the partnership ended CON-COR has been turning out nothing but "J-Class" locomotives. If you want to find out what "J-Class" means, you will have to read the article. So . . . NO! . . . we don't think that Jim Conway is an "N-Scale Hero" by any means. **Steps down off soapbox** Thanks for listening! [ 08 May 2001: Message edited by: swissrhb ]
I agree with your assesment of Kato vs Atlas..almost. I don't think Atlas is that far behind. I would say it is a race in which Kato is still ahead, but the gap is closing. You didn't mention Life Like...the new stuff...how'd they do?
It must be nice to get "Model Railroader" in time to discuss the articles in it on the web. Since Kalmbach changed the distribution method, I get mine about 10 days after everyone else. Discussed it with the local postmaster and since I am the only person in this zip code subscribing, it sits in the area distribution center for a week or more until a container of "small subscription" magazines for this zip code accrues.
Speaking of the Kato SD 80/90. Isn't there supposred to be a window in the front door on both the 80 as well as the 90? I looked at Kato's website and there is no window on the door. My Atlas SD60m has it. Did EMD do away with the window? Or was it Kato?
Where are the SD9043MAC photos on the Kato site, the only one I have seen is the one that looks digitally done? Thanks, DaNe
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by swissrhb: Please bear in mind these comments are coming from a dealer's prospective. The first 5 paragraphs are among the best we've ever read. The author's explaination of limited runs and why they have become such a necessary evil is thorough and to the point. We also liked the fact that they mentioned how you can still pick up out of production engines in "as new" condition if you look hard enough and are willing to pay around the list price of when the model was issued. We have taken in many quality consignment collections that prove this statement correct. We STRONGLY DISSAGREE with the Author's statement that ATLAS Locomotives are now equal to KATO in quality. This has been debated here on trainboard.com as well as many other forums and each time the answer is the same. KATO is #1 in quality and while ATLAS has made some good strides, they still have quite aways to go to equal KATO. If you look at the end of the article you will find that Paul Graf of ATLAS was cited for help with the article so perhaps this was a courtesy to him by saying that??? Through the years we have seen Kalmbach Publishing print statements in their publications that "stretch the truth" about products produced by their advertisers. We feel this is simply another example of this and in our humble opinion it's poor journalism to say the least. Lastly, we also must question their statement that Jim Conway of CON-COR is an "N-Scale Hero". Yes, at one time CON-COR was producing the best N-Scale money could buy but that was only when KATO was producing the models for CON-COR. The partnership of CON-COR and KATO came to an abupt end one day. We know why this happened but we will refrain from disclosing those details here as we feel it would be inappropriate to do so. Suffice to say that since the partnership ended CON-COR has been turning out nothing but "J-Class" locomotives. If you want to find out what "J-Class" means, you will have to read the article. So . . . NO! . . . we don't think that Jim Conway is an "N-Scale Hero" by any means. **Steps down off soapbox** Thanks for listening! [ 08 May 2001: Message edited by: swissrhb ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Since you wrote from a dealer's perspective I think you opened the door here for a customer's perspective. First, you obviously have an anti Atlas bias but be that as it may It is my suggestion that you sweep off your own doorstep first before you point out others dirt. The truth is that N Scale Division (your store) can't touch either BLW or M.B. woo woo woo's when it comes to supplying product to customers. Your prices are usually $10.00 more on both Kato as well as Atlas locomotives than either of these two. So what gives here? Also, if Atlas locomotives are so bad how about lowering the price? Why are you gouging your customers with high prices on such inferior equipment, if indeed it is inferior? How do you justify that practice? Like I said, you opened this door with your "dealer perspective." Also, regarding Concor and Jim Conway, I can remember when you could not get didley squat in this scale. N scale went thru some teething problems very early on and it was Jim Conway (among others) who did an enormous job in the face of a lot of obstacles. He took the chance and the financial risk to bring N scale equipment to North America first from Europe and then Japan. If nothing else he introduced Kato mechanisms to North America and people here realized that it really was possible to have engines this small run this good. You missed completely Jim's historical position in N scale and he rates the commendation with the others. Now about those lower prices, I checked your website and your selection of Atlas locomotives is abysmal; three RS1's, one RS3, one SD35 and a Trainmaster. On the SD60's, GP38 and B23-7 your site states you will only order what customers reserve in advance. None for follow up sales. None for inventory. No wonder you don't sell Atlas. You hardly stock them. - Just my humble opinion from a potential "customer's perspective."
I see no real diffrence between Kato and Atlas.My Atlas engines start at a much lower voltage,which i like,but when pulling a train,they run great together.When it comes to Atlas or Kato,what decides what i'll buy is the loco.Do i want another SD 40-2(kato)or a GP 40-2(atlas)The only leg up as far as i'm conserned is Kato seems to make improvements,and Atlas eventually follows(white leds for example,how long until Atlas starts selling these?)I don't assume to be some expert,just a guy who likes to run modern power,who ever the manufacturer is.
First off...not to bring the argument back, but I still think Kato is a lot better than Atlas. Had 1 -9 pull 60 coal cars this weekend and the SD60 couldn't. Any way, I am sure Kato's SD90 will have a similer nose door window as that on their C44-9W model, where the window outline is there, but it is up to you to paint the window in (black looks best). Not a big deal at all....
I would have a hard time deciding if my Kato C44-9Ws, SD40-2s and SD45 were any better than my Atlas SD50, 60 and GP40 series locos . All run, pull and look superb (yes, I have some Atlas paint cracking). I feel that I have a good test bed to say this with 30 car trains and 2.5%grades. My Life Like PA sure runs good too! Russ
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Craig Martyn: First off...not to bring the argument back, but I still think Kato is a lot better than Atlas. Had 1 -9 pull 60 coal cars this weekend and the SD60 couldn't. Any way, I am sure Kato's SD90 will have a similer nose door window as that on their C44-9W model, where the window outline is there, but it is up to you to paint the window in (black looks best). Not a big deal at all....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree at 1:160 nothing is a big deal. But I got two Atlas SD60M's and Atlas has the window in the door. And as far as a Kato -9 out pulling an Atlas SD 60 I got a LifeLike FA2 (the older design) that will out pull a -9 so is Lifelike better than Kato? But, and I have said this before on this forum as well as others, with no direct competition on a particular model the argument is moot. Compare an Atlas SD60 with a Kato SD60 which is the better engine? If you want an SD60 you have to buy the Atlas model cause Kato ain't got one. Same goes for all the other models with the one exception being the PA 1 which Kato and Lifelike both produced almost simultaneously. I don't know which was the better cause I didn't get either one opting for the E8/9 and the E7's but my local loco pusher told me he sold more Lifelike than he did Kato. For me if I like a locomotive I will buy it regardless of who (Atlas, Kato or Lifelike) makes it. I like Kato and the white LED in the -9's and (hopefully) soon to be released SD80's I am just trying to picture how they would look in Brunswick Green with cat whiskers and Keystones.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Inkaneer: Since you wrote from a dealer's perspective I think you opened the door here for a customer's perspective. First, you obviously have an anti Atlas bias but be that as it may It is my suggestion that you sweep off your own doorstep first before you point out others dirt. The truth is that N Scale Division (your store) can't touch either BLW or M.B. woo woo woo's when it comes to supplying product to customers. Your prices are usually $10.00 more on both Kato as well as Atlas locomotives than either of these two. So what gives here? Also, if Atlas locomotives are so bad how about lowering the price? Why are you gouging your customers with high prices on such inferior equipment, if indeed it is inferior? How do you justify that practice? Like I said, you opened this door with your "dealer perspective." Also, regarding Concor and Jim Conway, I can remember when you could not get didley squat in this scale. N scale went thru some teething problems very early on and it was Jim Conway (among others) who did an enormous job in the face of a lot of obstacles. He took the chance and the financial risk to bring N scale equipment to North America first from Europe and then Japan. If nothing else he introduced Kato mechanisms to North America and people here realized that it really was possible to have engines this small run this good. You missed completely Jim's historical position in N scale and he rates the commendation with the others. Now about those lower prices, I checked your website and your selection of Atlas locomotives is abysmal; three RS1's, one RS3, one SD35 and a Trainmaster. On the SD60's, GP38 and B23-7 your site states you will only order what customers reserve in advance. None for follow up sales. None for inventory. No wonder you don't sell Atlas. You hardly stock them. - Just my humble opinion from a potential "customer's perspective."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Dear Inkaneer: It is clear from your post that we offended you and for this we apologize however we feel your personal attack on our dealership was most uncalled for and dare we say it, completely inappropriate. We have read many of your other posts here on trainboard and it's evident to us that you greatly enjoy your ATLAS locomotives and perhaps Jim Conway of CON-COR is an N-Scale hero to you. Still, we don't see how your personal attack on our dealership has accomplished anything. Evidently you feel that you needed to attack us and we hope you feel better now that you have done it. Since you brought it up, we do feel we must address the issue of prices since this information will give all those who read this post a better understanding of the current market. You have accused us of "gouging" prices and this is completely inaccurate. We choose to discount on a fixed scale by manufacturer rather than simply copying what dealer "X" or "Y" may have done. This is the way the manufacturers suggest the dealers price products and in the 9 and a half years we have been in business, it has worked quite well for us. In most cases we offer 22.5% and 25% off the list prices of KATO and ATLAS locomotives respectively. For LIFE-LIKE we offer 30% off. This can hardly be called “gouging” since we are saving the customer more than we are profiting when the list price is compared against the NET (dealer cost) price. Our discounts fall somewhere in the middle of the range and that is exactly where we want to be. If always having the lowest price is your main criteria in selecting an N-Scale dealer then you should definitely stick with those dealers you mentioned above. Our business appeals to completely different type of customer than those other dealers whom you mentioned cater to. Neither of us are better than the other, just different. In fact, most of our business is European trains and as the years progress we seem to pick up more of an audience for that and less for the American market which brings us to the next point. The reason we are no longer stocking ATLAS like we used to is simply because our customers are not buying it like they used to. Our customers tell us they have quality issues with the ATLAS locomotives and that they prefer KATO. That's why we are continuing to stock KATO but not ATLAS, because our customers told us that's what they want and any good business listens to their customers if they want to survive. Maybe we could sell a few more ATLAS units if we lowered prices however the profit margins would be so low that it wouldn't be worth it to us so we rather off-load that brand out of inventory and make way for other products that have the potential to produce higher profits. You see, Ikaneer with our dealership it's all about the QUALITY not the quantity. Sure, we will continue to take reservations for new ATLAS product and deliver on those reservations without stocking any extra. ATLAS themselves are the ones who started this practice. According to ATLAS, they will only be producing the number of locomotives that distributors order. This policy is even listed on their website at http://www.atlasrr.com/ We must assume you agree with this policy since you are obviously such a big fan of ATLAS. How can you expect us to stock a product that ATLAS themselves aren’t interested in stocking? If what you say is true then how come we do not have any trouble selling KATO? As you say, we don't have the lowest price on KATO however our allocations are larger than most of our competitors yet we seem to sell out of them first. You see Ikaneer there's more to having a dealership than simply having the lowest price. Today's retail environment is all about product knowledge, offering great customer service and running the business efficiently as possible. We learned about business from a business prospective, NOT from a model railroading prospective. We did not simply take a hobby and turn it into a business. Those who do that rarely can achieve the level of success that we have had. That is all we have to say for now. If you would like to continue this conversation please e-mail us at: sales@nscaledivision.com John who works for us handles all of the e-mail at this account and for our other businesses as well. Just sign your e-mail "Ikaneer”. He has been instructed to forward it to me. We can debate these issues all you like via e-mail instead of on a public forum such as trainboard. [ 09 May 2001: Message edited by: swissrhb ]
One has to ask himself why would anyone post an message to a forum such as this and state in their post that they are a dealer and this is a "dealers perspective." Why bring up the "dealer" issue? Why not post an opinion as a personal opinion. Like I said I did not open this door. I gave a customers perspective and turned the tables around. For this I read a response which contains several inaccurate statements which I will summarize for brevity. One can refer to the original post on 09 May 2001. 1. Jim Conway of Concor is not a hero to me. All my heroes died in Vietnam. He does deserve commendation for his efforts in the early days of N scale along with the others mentioned in the MR article. Sometimes we get so preoccupied with where we are we forget where we came from. N scale is more than a decade old. Maybe something the newbies should take note. 2. Regarding the pricing issue you can price your products at whatever the market will bear. I have no problems with that. My point was that I gave you a customers perspective on your operation much the same as you gave a "dealer's perspective with Atlas. Turn about is fair play you know. 3.Regarding the line that your customers are not ordering Atlas because of quality issues and preferring Kato somehow does not ring true. I can't see someone wanting a SD60 but not buying the Atlas one preferring to wait for the Kato model as reasonable for anyone with even a smidgeon of knowledge of N scale. 4.I suspect that there is an iceberg here and there is more to this story than what we see on the surface, i.e. Atlas quality. Like your last paragraph stated this is a business and there is more to business than just quality, or just pricing, or just service. I suspect there is more to your "dealer perspective" than just Atlas quality. You also took a swipe at MR magazine in your post. What was your intent on that? Was it to suggest, imply or in some way create the inference of colusion or conspiracy? I have no affiliation with Atlas and Paul Graf is not my uncle or any other blood relative or even in law of mine. I buy Atlas engines and rolling stock as well as Kato engines and Lifelike too. I have found Atlas and LifeLike to be far more responsive than Kato when it came to service and repair parts. Kato makes a good locomotive but there is more to N scale than good locomotives. Now if anyone disagrees with me that is no problem you can E-mail me to your hearts content.
Ikaneer: Just a courtesy reply to you so that you know we read your post above however we choose not to carry this debate any further on this forum out of respect to the other members. Again, if you have issues with our dealership that need to be resolved you are welcome to e-mail us and discuss it greater depth. Warmest Regards! [ 09 May 2001: Message edited by: swissrhb ]
Im interested in this debate, and since this a forum, its the perfect place to discuss "stuff". But swissrhb, what Inkaneer did was criticize you, not a personnel insult (this word gets tossed around too much), and although you may not like it, it is completly appropiate. I severly doubt he has issues with your dealership, and I dont know how you think it has anything to do with it, because this was a discussion about Atlas/Kato quality. This is becoming too personal. Mike
While ya'll are busy bashing ATLAS and/or KATO might I take a moment to remind you of just where this scale would be without these two companies?? Most likelyNOWHERE <marquee>North Amercan Rail Alliance</marquee>
