Fast Mail AT&SF and UP Posted by: BarstowRick Noteing Arbomambo's post regarding an AT&SF Baggage Car or Mail Storage Car. His desire to actualize it. Incidentally a nice start. I figure it is time to throw in and share some video's of my Union Pacific and Santa Fe Fast Mail Trains. Did you ask, prototype? Not quite but as best as I can remember. I thought you might enjoy some home made video's taken by a good friend of mine John A. aka jostaiii. [www.youtube.com] [www.youtube.com] My turn to grumble...a bit. What we need are some heavy weight baggage cars that are prototypically correct and you can buy individually. Walther's had the right idea but now...well...you know. Let's not forget the prototypically correct REA Cars. Micro-Trains has the right idea, in the troop car. Close up the windows and put a reefer door and roof hatches on them a little green paint and REA decals and you are good to go. They could also be used for NYC and Pennsylvania Express Cars. While you are visiting You Tube check out Jostaii's aka John A. his videos, of the HO, Gulf & Pacific Railroad. I suspect you will be as much in awe...as I still am. [www.youtube.com] [www.youtube.com] Enjoy
I'd agree...but I'm not holding my breath... Although MT isn't producing anything in their new Heavyweight line that I can actually use...I can't fault them on their philosophy and business plan...that of producing a single car that is prototypical for a particular road, then re-lesing it in other roadnames that had 'similar' cars.... to the rescue, for me, is Roberto Martari (M&R sides), who produces beautiful and accurate brass sides allowing the modeller to produce the actual prototype he needs! On the way are a couple of ATSF 70' Heavyweight baggage sides, a couple of ATSF Horse Express sides (I've been acquiring old Atlas/Rivorossi heavyweights to use a cores... He'll be producing more ATSF fishbelly baggages...AND...he previewed plans for the elusive ATSF 60' Heavyweight RPO!..BEAUTIFUL! SO...... after this smoothside is done, the heavyweights are modelled (including the modified troop sleepers and Trucks found for the Hell Gate B60b shell I've been given), foreign road RTR cars are bought (new Red caboose PRR X-29's and WOT NYC baggage)...the 'Fast Mail' I'll end up with will be pretty darned accurate for any particular run during the 50's... The only home-owned car I really won't be able to model is the ATSF 4000 series express reefers, plated over...( The MT ATSF lettered cars are good 'stand-ins' but aren't particularly accurate for ATSF-they're great for the REA owned units-which they're modelled after)... I think that the only way we'll be able to accurately model these types of mail trains, is by doing what we're actually doing now... it appears that I'm entering the ATSF N scale modelling 'fray' at a much better time than just a few years ago...upon perusing the 1997 "Warbonnet" devoted to the Fast Mail, it's apparent that we have much more available to us as far as 'head end' equipment than we did when it was published... not to mention, My Fast Mail sharing the rails with BEAUTIFUL and prototypically ACCURATE "Super Chief" and "El Capitan" consisits....! watching the videos, it's apparent that the lack of a lot of accurate equipment hasn't stopped some modellers from portraying these trains! Bruce
Anything coming down line will always be appreciated by this TB participant. Some interesting thoughts there Bruce. Thanks.
Hopefully you all know that the classic Atlas/Rivarossi N combine is the DEAD NUTS Pullman-Standard prototype for the proper combine/rider car on the Fast Mail. That really is the right car. They were assigned to the "Fast Mail" as the rider car. http://www.atsfrr.com/resources/Sandifer/Howard/Consist/Combine/CombineModels.htm I've had the opportunity to work a lot with one of the survivors - the combine down at the Texas State Railroad is one of the old "Fast Mail" cars - now #61. Not sure of original car number. I think there is also one Orange Empire (#2602) left in original livery. I was intrigued because those combines were NEVER air conditioned and lasted right up to what...1967-8? But they sure are in good shape. You could tell they were well maintained right up to the end, never really modernized, ever, and were rolling museum pieces when in service. http://www.trainweb.org/fredatsf/protopass1.htm I'd wonder if those were the very last 'heavyweight' passenger cars on the ATSF in regular revenue service and open to the public (i.e. not business cars).
Randy, As far as I'ma aware they, the combines, rode the mail trains to the end. Rumored they rode the Super C...for awhile.
If I could butt in for a moment while we're on this topic of headend equipment, I have a question. What are the correct style trucks for the REA 40' steel ice reefers? (the kind that IM has made)
Mrlxhelper, You've asked a good question. Feel free to butt in anytime. Sorry, I don't recall the proper name of the truck in question and I refer to them as Express type trucks. I'm guessing....you probably noticed the silver trucks on one of my 40' ft REA Reefer's...right?. That isn't the right truck for that particular car. Not even sure REA operated 40' reefers. The door on the reefer is to new to be typical of REA. That's why I was grumbling...grrrr. I took the Express Type trucks off of MTL's Troop Car, as a trial and error thing. You may have also noticed the UP Express Box Cars with the same trucks. This is correct and they were a type of high speed truck that allowed them to pull the boxes at 100 miles an hour. One of my favorite websites is "Train Time in San Bernardino", you might want to visit it. The first picture that comes up is of two 50' REA reefers, take a look at the trucks on these bad boys. Also, check out the plug doors on these REA reefers. Now, I will have to rethink my thoughts on my 40' REA reefer...grin! http://coastdaylight.com/sb/san_berdoo_64.html Then scroll on down until you come to a picture of the Grand Canyon and note the equipment on the head end. You will need to read the inscription for that picture. The Grand Canyon was Santa Fe's "Milk Train" (makes all stops including flag stops) handling second class mail almost exclusively toward the end of it's service. One more resource I turn to: http://www.qstation.org/40_Years_Ago/00611_3_46C_Harper_12-25-66.jpg I hope that comes close to answering your question.
Yep, the edit shut off feature is working...grrrrrr! Not a true benefit...at all. http://coastdaylight.com/sb/san_berdoo_64.html Scroll down to the last two pictures. You will find two shots of the fast mail. If interested you might want to read the input Dr. Landcaster shares.
Montana, mrlxhelper, MONTANA that's your new nick...or not! Check this picture out as shot by JeffPolston, do note the freight trucks and that it is a converted Troop Car: http://www.jeffpolston.com/AmericanRailwayExpressWaxSeal3.jpg An older version: http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u84/arbomambo/Railroad Prototype/Santa Fe 50s/rea-1273.jpg I thought this one as interesting: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/images/PRR_R50b.gif I will throw this one out there as being my favorite: http://coastdaylight.com/reareefer.jpg I'm guessing you noted the trucks on this one is similar to MTL's Troop Car trucks. Does the statement, "Anything goes" come to mind?
The REA steel express reefers were 52' reefers...BX express trucks... Santa Fe rebuilt their wood side/steel underframe reefers and they, at first glance, resemble the REA versions... Microtrains makes them (The REA version with the BX trucks...)...although I've had issues wuth THEIR low profile wheels exchanged in these trucks The last pic shows the trucks that Microtrains supplies with their troop cars... the Pennsy pic shows their 'unique' trucks (2D-P5) Bruce
A shout out of thanks to Bruce aka arbomambo for filling in the blanks. I appreciate the technical information. Interesting and you have me thinking...hummm....what if? I haven't checked to see if MTL trucks are oversized but they look it to these eyes. That or they need to be lowered. Also, note you will find a passenger car type of truck underneath some of the REA cars.
Another guy butting in.... The MT troop train trucks are Allied Full Cushion trucks; original equipment but outlawed by the ICC in interchange traffic in about 1955. So those of you modeling later years probaly need to think about a replacement truck for the MT troop car conversions.... Regards, Otto,
Not someone else butting in? I don't know about all this. LOL Butt in anytime and feel free to throw your two cents at me. Interesting, now I need to keep in mind in what era I'm running in, so my REA cars have the right freight or passenger trucks. Best I have a second set of Bettendorf's (or some such) laying around.
Does anyone know how long the Santa Fe ran their long (72'? 85'?) passenger (baggage) car-style plug door reefers?
A what? Got a picture? Oh, yes I remember. They were old heavy weight, celestory roof older style baggage cars that were rebuilt shortly after Santa Fe lost the mail contract. These were designed to handle perishables and those who had perished. Yep, it's all coming back to me. LOL Who is kidding who? As far as I know Santa Fe never did convert any of it's baggage cars into reefers. Sorry, I shouldn't tease so. I do know that the standard 50' reefers would be pressed into mail service during the Christmas rush. I've done my best to recreate that in my AT&SF mail train.
I was kind of hoping you'd throw in your two cents about mail trains. Perhaps, critique mine. Heck, I know it isn't 100% prototype. Amature at best when you consider what is available on the N scale market. Thanks for your input and response here. With the Christmas Rush over I need to pull these bad boys off the layout. Time to run some crack passenger trains.
Ah, that's what became of them. I believed they were used once upon a time to support Fred Harvey's practice of serving Pacific seafood and California fruits to passengers who boarded at Chicago, and fresh corn, Great Lakes whitefish and other heartland delicacies to passengers the first meal out of Los Angeles. But they had too much space on board to have been used only for that. And what's not to love about your Cajon Pass? The only thing I can think of is one of those two trains should be covered with Mojave dust. But, of course, it's awfully difficult to have the same train go one way dusty and the other way freshly washed... The Fast Mail from the era when the UP was still running their Erie-builts probably should be somewhat more uniformly heavyweight baggage and baggage/RPO, but far be it from me to suggest someone make his train more boring!
LOL Acptulsa, The heavyweights dominating the UP mail train would be my preference but where are they? The pullman green heavyweights is what I'd be looking for. ConCor wants to sell passenger car sets with one baggage car. Why not a three car set of heavyweight baggage/mail storage cars. Then we need for Micro-Trains to put together a prototype heavyweight RPO for the Western Roads. Yep, that be my order. I like the idea of weathering one side of my mail trains. The clean side could be leaving San Bernardino and the weathered side coming back. Yep, I kind of like that idea. col From the for what it's worth department. I have no proof for what I'ma about to share here. My granddad did hog head the Santa Fe Passenger trains out of L.A. to Barstow, Ca. and back. I did hear some interesting things about the passenger trains. Also, with regards to the Harvey House Dinners and Station Dining Rooms. I had a great aunt who was a Harvey Girl and worked the Barstow Station Harvey House. Most of the special food items was delivered to the trains at various locations along the right of way. The speciality items would be delivered by the AT&SF reefers, removed from the cars and stored/refrigerated at the Harvey Houses. I do believe they carried certian refrigerated items on the train. I've heard tell, the dormitory cars with the baggage door, (a streamline combine of sorts) did have commercial refrigeration units where food could be stored Ie., Eggs, milk, butter, salad makins, ice cream and cream. I also heard that Harvey himself owned or purchased beef, poultry and milk products from local ranchers, in route. A dairy at Barstow was built to serve not only the trains but the Santa Fe employees and others living in Barstow, Ca. Like you, I heard rumors that some of the HW baggage cars ended up in refrigeration service. I also heard they were ineffective, lack of insulation, lack of proper air circulation due to the length of the cars. The last word I heard on the subject had it that most of the HW's found their way into M.O.W. as tool cars or retired and torched.
"Santa Fe rebuilt their wood side/steel underframe reefers and they, at first glance, resemble the REA versions..." Are you sure you are not talking about two different classes of reefers? Here is a shot of one of the Santa Fe wood cars rebuilt with steel sides and roof... the side sill gives it away as a rebuild... http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?march00/03-06-00/REa-ExpressCar-4037-atChicago-Oct67.jpg And here is one of the built new cars... http://canadasouthern.com/caso/non-nyc/images/rex-4098.jpg Santa Fe had some older wood reefers of a more traditional styling also rebuilt with steel sheathing... this one really took me by surprise... http://www.snowcrest.net/photobob/sfr48.jpg
Jerry, I don't think so as these clearly don't resemble a heavy weight baggage car. The problem here is there isn't any documentation with regard to the HW's. Still I'm glad you shared this resource as all three of these caught me by surprise. Proving once again, "If you look long enough...." See signature below. I had forgotten a conversation I had. Here is a reflection on that: I did run into a retired Santa Fe rail who, volunteering at one of our railroad museums said, (allegedly) Santa Fe did experiment with turning the older HW baggage cars into express reefers. It was clear the REA was on it's way out and Santa Fe was going to loose the mail contracts. He was sure that Santa Fe experimented with the older heavy weight baggage cars attempting to turn them into express reefers. He said it didn't work for reasons already stated and they gave up on it. On another subject: He did say that REA leased some Santa Fe streamline baggage cars and experimented with a reflective coating to cut down the glare. A green shellacing of sorts. Evidence of this can be found on a video. I'd have to look back through my collection to find it, more on this later if you need it.
