After about 15 years without a layout, I'm finally ready to build one again and in the very early stages of designing it. I'm sure that many things have changed over the years so if anyone would care to give me their opinions I will be more than happy to take them into consideration. If anyone would like to take a crack at designing it, I would welcome that as well. Once I have settled on a track plan, I will most likely be using the open grid style of benchwork for the majority of the layout and will build it into sections wherever possible so it can be moved without destroying it if the need ever arises. The room dimensions are shown in the image below. The area shown in yellow is fully available for the layout with no obstructions. A breaker box is located in the left corner of the lower side, so the depth of the benchwork cannot exceed 18" to 24" in that area. The area shown in grey is a bathroom and isle connecting two doors and cannot be used. The following list shows some of the things I desire: 1. HO Scale (required) 2. Double track main with two independent loops 4. Point to point & continuous loop operation with visible staging 5. Single level with no duckunders 6. Minimum radius: 22" to 24" mainline and 18" to 22" branchline 7. 42" to 48" isles with 36" minimum in some places being ok 8. Primarily rural terrain (West Virginia) set in the diesel & steam era (1950's) 9. Coal, timber, and other industries including a narrow gauge logging spur 10. Reversing wye, possibly loop 11. No DCC (yet)
I have a CadRail program that I really enjoy using, so I'll enjoy working on an idea or two for your layout. There are others here that are very good at layout design based on what I've seen them post. Are you okay with flex track, or does it need to be sectional track? You provided good, pertinent info for your 'druthers'. It's a nice, large area, so it will be a handfulof days before I have something tangible for you. I'll ping you if I have any questions
Given a space such as yours with side entry (as opposed to a stair that descends into the layout room), "no duckunders" and "continuous run" inevitably leads to at least two dogbone loops. In this context, does "two independent loops" mean (i) a loop at each end, as in the red plan, or (ii) two independent loop-to-loop tracks, as in the blue?
I am by no means an expert so please bear with me. Any model railroading skills I may have obtained through the years are rusty at best. While I am not 100% opposed to having a duckunder or a swing bridge of some sort, I would like to avoid it if possible. Unfortunately, I came to the same conclusion about the dogbone loops and have been having difficulty envisioning how I could keep it somewhat realistic without having a train pass through the same scene more than once unless it were reverse along the same path. With regard to having two independent loops, I am open to all possibilities but like them being separate as indicated in the blue example above. The area I currently have available is somewhat confined but don't let that fool you. It's but a small part of what I hope will eventually be a much larger layout and is located on the lower level of a 32' by 38' building and is adjacent to a large garage bay that is frequently used. The upper level is unfinished and is currently used for storage but I plan to eventually finish and use some or all of it for a much larger layout when the time comes. Besides, the smaller space will force me to focus on the things that are really important (to me) and help to keep the cost of any mistakes much more manageable. The layout will only be used by me, with the occasional visitor, and my primary goal for it's design will be for visual appeal. The 6 part series, in the June to November issues of Model Railroader, about the Coal Fork extension of the Allegheny Midland by Tony Koester, captures the look that I wish to achieve. Think "rural Appalachia" or "coal towns" in the 50's. I would like to have a passenger train, 1-3 cars or perhaps even a doodlebug, make stops much like they did in the old days and realize that passenger cars are long so the minimum radius could be much larger than I indicated. Basically, I want the largest curves that I can get away with. Ideally, I would use 30" to 36" radius curves for the mainline if they will fit. Operationally, I like to "watch em run" but also want to maintain some operational interest by adding minimal switching. As for the actual switches, I currently plan to use ground throws but may eventually incorporate electric switches. Cars will mainly be uncoupled by hand but I also plan to place magnets in strategic locations. For me, point-to-point means taking empty coal cars to a mine, have the engine run around the train, and bring them back loaded. A to B and back A. What I meant by visible staging could be better described as being a fiddle yard but I would like to try and incorporate it into the scenery and keep it easy to reach. What I had in mind was two or three tracks where complete trains could be stored for running and two or three tracks tracks for whatever I want to "fiddle" with. The narrow gauge logging spur or branch would ideally be a functional branch but given the space constraints, it could simply give the impression that one exists to supply the mill. Thanks
My layout will be loosely based on a prototype, a former branch of the C&O known as the Horse Creek Branch. Actually, it was more of an inspiration than a prototype but parts of it will be very useful for purposes of keeping it real. The following image was generated using actual ICC valuation maps in my posession and shows the branch in it's entirety. The mainline, or point of origin, is located in the upper right corner.
After further research, I am seriously considering the possibility of building an access gate to allow for an around the room type of layout without the need for a duckunder. The dogbone design does permit complete access but having large return loops on either end and having trains return through the same area just doesn't appeal to me. The the swinging type of access gate seems like it would be a great solution and would be very easy to build. Granted, it would require the use of precision measurements and the inclusion of adjustment points, but it would fit the bill very nicely. Electrical safety blocks, while not required, would also be a very good idea. I really like the design of the swing gate shown on post #10 of the forum thread shown below. http://www.trainboard.com/grapevine/showthread.php?84020-Designing-an-access-gate The image below is a quick and dirty 3D mockup I created to see what the concept would look like if I were to use a swing gate. Note the beveled surface on the latching side to permit proper closure. I see great possibilities here.
I was going to ask "what year" and then I realized, wait a minute, it's MR. They feature a steam-to-diesel transition era Appalachian coal hauler every year. The liftout design is a decent solution. It's also worth remembering that with a room this size, you can also build a large table with broad radii. Not too common these days as current layout planning practice prioritizes long singletrack runs over "spaghetti bowl" type operational variety, but it is an option.
db, Below is a link to a pic on photobucket of a layout idea I've been working on for your space. I used a link v. an uploaded image so that you could save it and use your pic manager to zoom in and see it better. It's a big space! I like alot about the layout, but it doesn't have any visible (or invisible for that matter!) staging. I wanted to give you something and see where you want to go from there. http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd165/ZiggySpaz/Trainroom-dbwv69-H0-01.jpg This layout is designed for running trains through incredible scenery. Double-track mainline w/ a set of cross-overs at the town if you want to move from one to the other. You could put a few more sets in if you wanted, but I don't see too much need since you're not in to lots of switching. Connecting tracks provide reversing loops for the outside line. Branch line to coal mine and connection to logging line which is narrow guage. Double guage on some of the track to allow for interchange and a wye at the interchange to turn the engine. Haven't gotten to it yet, but figure there'd be a small turntable up at the logging camp to turn the engine there. Nice long line up to the upper camp where the spar tree could be. Lots of opportunity along all of that for more spectacular scenery. Check it out and let me know what you think!
ZiggySpaz, I like the plan you created and while it has given me many great ideas, it isn't quite what I'm looking for. My thinking has become somewhat rigid but looking at the plan has opened up my thinking process considerably. As most of us know, designing a layout is anything but easy so I greatly appreciate the help. I was thinking an around-the-room design but now I'm thinking of ways I could somehow combine the dogbone and around-the-room designs. Perhaps the mainlines could be split to achieve this. An interchange could also be incoprorated. Previously, I was considering a central or "spaghetti bowl" layout design with aisles around the entire room. Two of my favorite configurations of this design resembled the letters "F" and "J". While I have not eliminated the central configuration as a possibility, I'm leaning in the direction of an around-the-room design due to the extra layout space it affords. The following image is some ideas I've been tinkering with. I took actual parts of the valuation maps I have and pasted them onto an approximation of one possible benchwork configuration. It's not to scale but it does give me a general idea of where and how I could place my desired scenes. The circles are just something I use to ensure that I am within the minimum radius as I experiment with various ideas. In addition, here is a revised list of my wants and wishes. I know it seems like a lot but with careful planning, I believe most (if not all) of it is possible. Scale: HO (overall), HOn3 (loogging), HOn3 or N (mines). Locale: Rural Appalachia (West Virginia). Era: Transitional (1950's). Specifications: 1. Minimum radius: 30" mainline and 18" branchline. 2. Maximum grade: 1.5% mainline and 3% branchline. 3. Minimum aisle width: 36", 42" average. 4. Double track mainline with two independent loops. 5. Point to point and continuous loop operation. 6. Reversing wye, possibly loop. 7. Single level with no duckunders, swing gate or lift bridge acceptable. 8. Some switching with potential for interesting operations. Primary Scenes: 1. Two active coal (drift) mines, with tipples (2-3 tracks). 2. One or more narrow gauge mine track(s) with entrance(s). 3. One lumber mill with active (functional) narrow gauge logging branch. 4. Three or more bridge scenes of various sizes and types. 5. One small passenger terminal, for Doodlebug with cars. Secondary Scenes: 1. One or more coal truck loading and/or unloading stations. 2. One abandoned coal (drift) mine, with dilapidated tipple (1 track). 3. Small freight terminal and/or warehouse. 4. Railroad track construction scene, with ties and pieces of rail being laid. 5. Company stores, homes, and assorted other structures. 6. One or more tunnels, where appropriate. 7. Roads, streams, and rock outcrops. 8. Active (visible) staging yard with various facilities. Notes: 1. Mainlines do not always have to be parallel. 2. Point-to-point means A to B and back to A. 3. Staging is less important than scenery. 4. Trains should appear to pass through a scene only once. 5. View blocks, tunnels, or other methods may be used where needed. Inspiration: The 6 part series, in the June to November 1998 issues of Model Railroader, about the Coal Fork extension of the Allegheny Midland by Tony Koester.
I think I've settled on a benchwork configuration that will allow adequate aisle space and accomodate everything I desire but I'm still having difficulty envisioning an actual track plan that meets my criteria. With that in mind, I've decided to see if Mother Nature can provide any inspiration. More specifically, I'm referring to Digital Elevation Models (DEM's for short) of the area I am using as a prototype. For those of you who may not know what DEM's are, they are simply high resolution topographical data. Later, as the plan for my layout evolves, I will generate contour lines by hand and from parts of the DEM's, which will enable me to create a 3D model of the layout so I can visualize it and make any changes or corrections before the actual construction begins. When complete, the 3D model will have many parts, including the room, benchwork, roadbed, terrain, structures, etc... The image below, is a DEM of part of the area I plan to model. Note how the valley, where the railroad was located, flows with shape of the mountains. View attachment 39115
db, Some very distinct druthers and desired footprint will allow for some better layout ideas. Thanks!
Designing my track plan is proving to be a real headache but I remain confident that it can be done, in time. The following diagram shows all the major scenes I hope to include in my track plan. Each scene is shown in it's relative location along the line and is loosely based on an actual prototype.
In the "diagram of major scenes," are the red lines narrow gauge and/or branch lines that connect with your main layout line? Looks likje a good planning tool.
The red lines are short narrow gauge lines that service facilities along the mainline but don't actually connect with it. My thinking is that they could be fully automated, going from point A to B and back to A again. For example: Mine cars could leave the mine, stop at the tipple, and return to the mine. In the case of the line servicing the mill, my original thinking was to make it narrow gauge but now that I think about it, one could just as easily make it standard gauge and have it connect with the mainline so the logging train could also be ran on the rest of the layout if one wanted to do so. That's the beauty of model railroading... A prototype exists for just about everything imaginable so the possibilities are endless.
db, The diagram is great! What exactly is "track construction"? Test track that is connect to the RR? Also, when you say "company store"...are you refering to the mining company...the logging company...either/both...the RR itself...siding needed for freight?...
The track construction area shown on the chart, represents a small scene where crews are laying ties and rails. The scene was inspired by several pictures I found and is meant to represent a branch line (Peter Cave Fork) that was part of the prototype branch line (Horse Creek Branch) that I'm using as an inspiration for my layout plans. The company stores are representative of stores that each of the mines and lumber mills once had. The company store at the "Y" junction between the two mines is one of the most important scenes I plan to model as it represents a real store that was built in 1916 and despite changing hands several times, remained in continuous operation until the 80's before finally being torn down in the early 90's. The only thing that remains today is an old safe made of concrete and steel that now stands like a guardian of the past. The following images are of a scale 3D model I created using pictures of the old store at the junction mentioned above. I have information which indicates that the "wings" at either side were added after it was built so I modeled it with and without them. It should be an interesting scratchbuilding project for my layout when the time comes. Planning the junction where the old store was located has been anything but easy because the "Y" junction consumes a lot of real estate and requires a specific shape to look right. I believe I've found a solution but as often is the case, solving one problem has caused another. Now I need space for the logging branch. The freight terminal will have a siding as well as an area for trucks to load/unload. It's like a transfer station only much smaller in scale and is meant to represent a warehouse with a siding that was also a part of the prototype mentioned above. I decided to make it a freight terminal because I have a large number of box cars in my collection and wanted a logical reason for regular freight shipments, in addition to creating more operational interest.
The following image shows the plan I am currently experimenting with. The track climbs a grade until it reaches a point just before the company store represented by the rectangle near the "Y" junction. Coal mines would be at either end of the junction, with the right fork being a dead end and the left fork continuing past the mine and descending a grade to the staging yard. The unconnected tracks on the left are there to guide me as I determine where to place them and will eventually be connected to the mainline at some point on both ends of the tipple. The area in blue represents the lowest level and would have tunnel portals at either end. Access to the track underneath would be available through access openings in the fascia. The access or swing gate would be located in the area to the right. Otherwise, it's a work in progress.
When it comes to research, I have definitely done my homework but coming up with an actual track plan is another matter. The following image shows a diagram of key scenes I plan to model and a map showing their locations along the real branch line. The image also shows a junction that has been giving me fits while trying to incorporate it into a track plan. If anyone would care to share some suggestions or ideas, I'd greatly appreciate it. How would you do it?
