When I first got my GS4, I ran it on curves no smaller than 28” and never lost a traction tire. Since I have had to downsize to tighter curves (12”- 13”), the GS4 throws traction tires with regularity. It seems to me that perhaps this loco just may not like tight radius curves.
Florida Boy, Why? Why should I have to mess with a traction tire, taking the locomotive apart just to replace one. Nonsense. Absolute nonsense. The same traction can be obtained from a properly built stove minus the traction device. I put chains on my car only when I want to get through ice and snow. The same should be said for my stoves. Huurrrumph!
Barstow Rick, If you can make it run without traction tires, OK. Locos with traction tires groove the selected tires to accommodate the tire, which means in its absence the tire had no adhesion simply because the contacted surface is now two narrow slits. Second, as has been my experience with many locos over the years, rnanufacturers tend to make the traction tire wheel a tad bid smaller to make up for the additional thickness the tire gives, and again, reduced traction of the loco. Third, when you sell it, if the unit is missing a traction tire affects its value. I am a believer in traction tires when they are necessary. I have seen them improve adhesion, as in the case of the Kato Mikado by at least 10x. For example, the Kato Mike I purchased in 1996 could barely pull its tender and 4 freight cars on level track, and after I added the Kato traction tire driver (I think p/n 11-706) and now that relatively weak 14 year olld Mike can pull 30 cars on level track and slight grades with absolutely no sweat or spin. I also purchased in bulk a long time ago, the Stewart N scale diesel and steam traction tires which take some work to install but are made of silicone and after a brief wear in period work like a miracle. I don't want to argue the point of traction tires or not, only from my perspective and experience, when I have any loco with missing traction tires, it doesn't get any track time until I replace the tires. That is just me. If this GS4 can run successfully without its traction tires, that is fine, but check this thread out. If this problem occurred on another brand we would be on them like bark on a dog, but with Kato products we cater and adjust. To me, brands do mean overall good quality, but not always the best every time. Remember Ford made the Edsel, Pontiac made the Aztec, and Cadillac made the (yechh) Cimmaron. Last but not least, it is common knowledge that Kato monitors this board forum as they used my original letter here as reference in their reply to me. As a fan of B.F. Skinner who advocated to reward good behavior and punish bad behavior, by excusing this what I consider bad behavior on this train will send them our message that no matter what is done, it is OK with us. That is, everyone except for me and Rob de Rebel. It is good strategy to isolate me or Rob when it costs them money to fix, so I am expecting more from them, if you get my drift. The traction tires are not my only issue, but now Kato has heard and I have been heard so that is all I care about, and it is over. I have my solution which is a ConCor GS4 which I am working on now. What they decide to do about their model is entirely up to them. Frankly I advocate a complete re-tool before the next 4-8-4 platform is forthcoming from them. I would suspect they still have the old ConCor Northerns plans for the tooling from the eighties with all geared wheels, 5 pole motor, flywheels and tender pickup is "somewhere in a closet". Maybe this is the time they dust it off. Complete re-tooling is common in the industry, even with Kato, like there are two versions of the GP38, F units, SD 40's and -2's and so on. Even Lifelike/Walthers, Athearn have re-designed their big steam to accommodate sound, and Atlas added sound to its geeps. Atlas re-tooled its mechanism for their E models over the years and Rivarossi retooled its Big Boy and Mallet regularly with each new issue. To me retoolling seems to be very do-able, and answers why my recent visit to Orlando that the Kato GS4's in the hobby stores I visited with HermanZGerman had them so cheap. I will have to sit on this loco in the box intact it appears for several months before trying to sell it, and after my Orlando experience, I think I am going to lose my shirt. Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman
Ken, You need to share something with me I don't already know. Are you trying to convince me or yourself? These points you've made to support TT's, are older then you or I. They've been around since the toy trains inception. In this day and age of science and know how...there's no excuse, logic, rational and or justification to hang on to old school thinking. I've messed with traction tires longer then I care to admit to. Believe it or not I've actually bumped into some stoves that make the pull...no traction tires. Properly weighted with the weight centered over the drivers, every driver geared up. This design will out pull any of the stoves... I have with traction tires. I understand where you are coming from. I've been there and know better. Know my traction tire problems have been solved with Bull Frog Snot. I won't, will not, replace anymore traction tires...period. And know this, this isn't the answer I was looking for...but...I do have locomotives that were sitting in a box due to the lack of TT replacements, now up and running. When we all... tire... of the traction tires, maybe then our providers will think twice about how how they design their steamers. It's time to say good-bye to traction tires. You take care!
Rick, note I said I advocated use of traction tires only when necessary. I believe engineering any loco, diesel or steam, is quite difficult, because of the economies of scale. First, the manufacturer/designer wants to create a model as close to its prototype and then has to work the mechanical things out to make them fit, work, and turn into a performer. Seems easy to us, but I scratched/kitbashed a few steamers over my lifespan and met it seemed I met every problem I could ever conceive. But at the starting out with nothing and a new design at a factory I am sure makes any problems or obstacles I had seem pale. I am first to agree that I thought traction tires were going out of fashion until one year we had a whole bunch of new steamers and the commonality was they all had drawbar pull problems. Since the mechanisms have already been designed and manufactured, they were pretty stuck with what they had, and making a set or two of new drivers with rubber tires in a subsequent run was probably more cost effective, and in time, again became an accepted alternative by many, including me, as the alternative was that each loco would be a wait like Broadway Limited's M1a. My solution is to replicate what the real locomotives did. Have a steel.composite "tire" press fit on the wheel, and that "tire" have knurling or some type of friction-rough surface to provide the traction, instead of rubber or composite which would wear down in time. Also, after reading this thread, I believe the GS4 blows traction tires because of the flimsy fit and tighter curves. In my instance, I run 11" radius curves on UniTrak, which in my opinion is not abnormal, and should accommodate the GS4 tire well. But it threw its tire on a curve, and after hundreds of times checking that curve, no sharp areas existed. Probably caused by the ripping motion on any curve when the inside part of the driver on the curve rotates slower than the outside which is a little more in radius. Look at a line of soldiers marching within a concentric and the outside guy is running like heck while the center guy is just stepping in place. As for old school, I wasn't aware of what you said, but what I said was only what I have experienced over 28 years of N scale experience. I probably am "old school" which is probably better than no school at all. I know I resent being categorized, and further resent trying to be convinced verbally. As for those who know me, as many on this board do, I live my life to my own rules and will rarely listen or heed to others, but follow my own instincts. My views on traction tires are that they are valid in the absence of other alternatives right at this moment on July 30, 2010, and subject to change without notice. I prepared for this anticipating flimsy tires from other manufacturers, but honestly not from Kato. Look at their JNR Hudson and USRA Mike and you see they have the technology, and why didn't they apply it to this GS4 - time deadline problems? I too, believed that Kato researches their own solutions to problems discovered, as they did with the Mikado, and have faith in subsequent runs that this model/platform will improve. From my point of view, I told my son now 22 that no matter what he decided to do with his life give everything his absolute best. I don't think this GS4 is their best. So far, their last production Mike is their best. But you will never, NEVER, see me lay down to any theory of others which I haven't tried, succeeded or failed but experienced myself, as this scale is way too new and untried to develop universal truths and solutions to achieve what we expect. The invention or discovery of Bullfrog Snot to me is a sword with 2 edges. I tried it on a couple of locos and it is OK, but again not the final answer. First, it is a notice to all manufacturers that yes, we are all indeed, including me, tired of rubber traction tires, and we expect more out of them. I was truly disappointed with the focus of $, resources, and time on sound and how expensive it is on each loco, and when I hear it it sounds like a 1950's Mickey Mouse record on steroids. Next time, think "Puff N Toot" when you hear any sound system, and you will start to realize how much money we waste on that stuff. The other edge is that the ease of Bullfrog Snot allows the manufacturers to slack up because we have the answer instead of them conducting extensive research on achieving better track adhesion. I do not have the answer. From the tone of your last input, either you want to take me on, or are trying to assign me to a position of which I do not agree. I am not a fighter anymore so that is out. I am not an advocate of traction tires as they exist now, for I am a victim. But we demand more and more from our steam and the quick answer is either Bullfrog Snot or traction tires, or my silicone replacements and as long as there are slots in the tires, I believe they should be filled with some tire material, and for me as long as I have my silicone I will use them. I have about 10 years left on this earth and 10 years left of traction tires they way they are going now. My goal is to keep my locos and rolling stock in peak running order which I have succeeded. Plus I want to keep my layout smooth, seamless, dust free and relatively easy to look at and have fun with, which I partially have succeeded. Hey, maybe I am old school, but I am not in anyone's camp or dead set on any topic forever. I would rather roast my own marshmallows, if you get my drift. Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman
For newbies here, TLDR usually means Too Long, Don't Read. Or Too Long, Didn't Read, This thread has had a spirited discussion of a product, with many valid points.
As it turns out Ken, and I are closer to being on the same page then first thought. Never mind that we can both, be long winded. Good to see someone who isn't afraid to say what's on his mind. Good going Ken. Re: Taking you on. No sir. I have no desire to take you on. I want to take on the industry that makes toy trains and hammer them into the ground with a "No Traction Tire" message. We've been long enough suffering with the difficulties that are inherent with TT's. Enough I say! There's no fun or joy in constantly replacing a TT. With that said, I won't use Bull Frog Snot as a surrogate traction tire. I will use it to replace TT's that are no longer available...just to get my fleet of stoves back out and operating. I won't be ordering any more TT replacement tires that are over sized, don't fit, cause the locomotive to wobble and bobble about. No sir, I'm done. As long as we keep buying locomotives with TT's and ordering loads of replacements...they will keep providing said products. I've labored this long enough. Ahh, do I sound angry...well...yes! Only at those who perpetuate the idea of TT's and continue to ask the providers for said products. Take what you will from our discussion here and leave the rest behind. Just my two cents. .
We are on the same page although the wording and expression are different. I sorta was feeling that but got confused when you started in on questioning my being honest with myself. Nuff said. Bottom line. I am frankly pi$#%$ed off at Kato for charging so much for what appears to be a second rate product. It shares a lot in common with the old Bachmann Northern and the Spectrum J, both of which are infinitely cheaper, and use the flimsy tires yet. I will totally agree with you that there is absolutely no reason a large 4-8-4 cannot be properly weighted to not need traction tires. But it is filled with gobbledy-gook instead of simple mechanism and weight. Second, to have one geared set of drivers when everything you built successfully in the past has had all geared drivers, is way beyond me. Finally, the use of a 3 pole motor is the bad punch line to a bad bad joke. The last time I ran mine it ran fine, but I have no confidence it won't throw another tire, so it sits in its box until I decide to rid myself of it. As for 3 pole motors, there is a reason for advertising and hyping the 5 pole. I have a whole bunch of spare motors for repairs and they are all makes and types. All of my spare 3 poles run a little rougher, a lot hotter, and spark up sooner than the 5 poles. They simply don't seem to last as long. Again, practical experience. Like you, I just can't stand by and let this #@$#@$ happen. I don't do it often but if I stand by I feel like a pathetic sheep, which isn't what I was brought up to be. This occurred with me in trains in 2002, when I spoke against the new Model Power Pacific and because of the support and confirmation, the loco was revised and is now a successful product and I have 8 myself and enjoy them. This is uncharted ground as Kato is a formidable recipient of my rancor and they already have responded with some intimidation, but I am not in this for personal reasons. I see an injustice in the charging of $189.95 (?=/-) msrp and don't feel this loco is worth that, and 2, this isn't their best work. Not even close. Like the old Model Power Pacific back in 2002, I feel betrayed by those minutes I spent looking at this beautiful loco in the showcase, drooling, and daydreaming, and when I ran it within seconds it became a virtual nightmare. That sparked emotion which after talking with other forums even made it worse. We are not the only people victimized by the traction tires, look at other forums. I don't like being in the position of maven here, but I felt thrust into it by fate and have to see it through. Either way, the ball is in Kato's court from my point of view. They can make small adjustments to improve the model, like redesign the drivers and move the traction tires. Or they can do nothing and let fate takes its course. Or they can make sweeping changes and come out with a viable model worth the hard earned money we pay for If Kato does nothing, that message speaks oodles. So far they haven't done much, but in their email response to me, they didn't refute any of my critiques of the physical deficiencies of this loco, so there is hope there. We can only wait and see. My goal is that all of the locos with traction tire problems get a remedy, just like the one when we had problems with the Mikado. That simple. But now, I could care less. I have to see this through as I started it and that is not my style to abandon something important once begun. I will sell my Kato GS4 and replace it with the ConCor GS4 that decision is already made and died in cast iron metal. Basically there is nothing in it for me for this exchange now, except to try to be responsible and diligent in my effort. Thanks for the reply, BarstowRick Ken
I've had mine on the tracks since Christmas. I have ran it repeatedly over and over and it is one of the best darn loco's I've ever ran. I only have about 100 N scale loco's, and I have since been a Z guy, but the bottom line is this is a great loco. Since I run DC and not DCC...not to start a flame...I removed the "fix" the little plastic inserts. Why? Because I noticed mine were getting bent on my tight curves. I have a double loop main line layout on a 30x80 door, and it seemed like it was causing bawkiness. Once removed, everything, was smooth. Ok, here is my point, to hear people in N complain about a great looking well running steammer that cost, 130 dollars.... Woooooooow!!!! Just getting an american Z steam loco at that price that looks and runs as good as this would make me do backflips. I guess it is a case of the grass is greener. I had to work like heck to get the model power loco's to run well, Bachman is hit or miss, Con cor is not very smooth. I had an old Northern at one time, not impressed, Life like or Walthers makes ok steammers, and then there is kato...Do I think they do no wrong? Nope, every now and then there might be a lemon. I have 2 mikado's and 1 GS4 and I have to say, best of the best. No contest hands down. By the way, the GG1 is quite a fine loco as well. Those darn loco's got me back running N after a few year of all Z. By the way Ken I remember you being all bent out of shape about the Model power loco and the response you got from them on the atlas forums back in the day, I like you and respect your opinions, but this does seem to bug you more for some reason. Don't let one loco/toy get to you because that is what they are. Don't get too worked up.
Way more reading than I care to do guys. I will say I could care less either way. The only thing that matters is what will get my unit, regardless of brand, to run reliably and pull adequately. Traction tires get thrown. If painting the groove then installing takes care of it then thats what works. I have little experience with traction tires and have no idea how long they will last so when mine are toast I have a jar of Bullfrog Snot that will last many years. Even the Bullfrog Snot will wear off and need to be re-applied in time. As with most techniques in this hobby the best solution is the one that works for me. :mcool:
John,...we is just wound up a bit tight to night. Ken, I owe you an apology for something or other. Just feel free to take it. It would take to long to write... why and that would make some of those who like short responses uncomfortable. Grin! I've been miffed at TT's since my American Flyer lost a tire and I my dad took it to the shop, to replace it. Cost was prohibitive so we ran without it. I never had a problem but then we didn't have switches to run through. Like I said earlier, take what you will and leave the rest behind. Those confounded phritzda phlomboogled de motuking #$*&^@#@ Traction Tire's!
First, Barstow and guys, Thanks for your comments either way. At least we got stimulated to think things through. This and N scale model railroading is only a small facet of my life, but since I live alone, when I am home, I work on my hobbies. Yes, I am "old school" and a Baby Boomer.......$100 will always be a lot of money to me, even when I was in government management positions spending millions of dollars per month, I tried to always keep in mind the value of the dollar. Always. When I purchased goods and services for the government agencies I worked for, I was really a stickler about getting the most worth for the unit of cost, as that was bred in me by my parents and relatives. I spend less than 20 minutes per day on the computer, and writing and keyboarding comes easy as I used to draft large contracts and keyboard at 80 wpm, so what you see is about 30 seconds of work after a few minutes of thought and put-together. I love N scale, and when a product is good I exhalt it, and when it is not, no matter who makes it, I see rants on all forums about certain locos. I understand this loco may perform well, but it seems quite a number of them are tossing tires, and when working on mine, I noticed other deficiencies, and some were pointed out to me for verification by Atlas forum guys, and they, like the experts on this forum, are good, most quite better than I. But frankly I just didn't like the way the cards were played on this loco, which left me felt betrayed from the minute of purchase. So, I can either act like a sheep and languish in the meadow chewing grass or share the wrong with the forum, take a few hits but at least I am telling the truth and not being apathetic. Hey, I carry Theodore Roosevelt's famous saying in my wallet. I have no ulterior motives and hope Kato will take some type of action even if to rectify the driver wheels only, because despite the 3 pole motor, it does run very well otherwise. But I know that 3 poles wear out quicker, as my inventory of spare motors will testify. Look, I had a problem with even the siding to my home, watching it decay after each rain, and I found out it was vinyl coated paper stock, and started a neighborhood movement which ended up in every home getting new siding in three developments, and Palm Beach County banishing it as a product. I didn't participate in the class action suit, as I already negotiated with the contractor and supplier to re-side my home. I just believe we are all consumers and must practice diligence, and when Clinton opened the gates of the world to the US with the AFTA treaty, I knew it was going to be hell to look the other way. And it has. I am no consumer watchdog but get aggravated when I get hosed, and that is my motivation. I also believe as long as these guys depend on our combined wallets, we have a speak, and they owe us. Read "How to Turn Ordinary Complaints into Thousands of Dollars" by Ralph Charell. I do not want to make any money but only to get what my intended dollar is spent. No more no less. As for Kato, I know guys are silently thinking I have a bent toward it, and my latest two acqusitions are Dash 9 diesels in BNSF and they are by far the best state of the art locos I have seen in some time. So why did they come up short with this steamer? Mistake? Just do it and get it out of the way after all it is a US? Who knows? Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman
Something I just thought of, is it possible that changes in hunidity, to coolness, or something like that effects the traction tire and causes some issues? Or is it possible that the mech is slighty over oiled and some has gotten between the tire and the wheel?
Ken, If by chance you used WD40, somewhere on the layout and it got on to the track and you inadvertently ran the locomotive through it, your pulling days are over. Despite loosing a traction tire on my Kato GS4, right out of the box... which we put right back on. I'm extremely happy with my GS4 and it runs sweet, to this day. No black paint to hold the TT in place or bull frog snot. I can't see dumping your GS4. Clean the drivers up and give it a spot of BFS. I think you will find your problems are over. Otherwise, send it back to Kato. If that doesn't work send it to me with a price tag on it.
Everyone seems to still be thinking, and wow, even showing some compassion, which truly I appreciate, especially at my old age. This is for Rick, First, my layout is comprised entirely to accommodate my physical limitations, which are arthritis of the back and knees, so I constructed it completely of Unitrak, a 4x8 cut with a 1 1/2 x 5 out to make an "L". Every point is reachable from my control point which is where my power paks, and controls which are very simplified for a double mainline. All switches are hand operated and located within an arm's reach of my comfortable tilt and swivel chair. I have about 5 "trainwatching" points on three sides so you can watch sitting on a comfortable chair. Truly a retiree's layout. Work progress is slow but very responsive as everything is builder friendly, all but 2 structures are rebuilt, and now I am embarking on hills, mountains, and a second level town. My methods of layout maintenance are use of a mini-vac, lots of wet wipes, dust cloths, bright boys, and just sometimes alcohol soaked wipes. I do not use glue on ballast, but with the Unitrak, I have found that the spray on textured gray with some paint dabs makes realistic ballast, and you don't get those little loose rocks in switches and stuff. I don't have pictures online yet because I had a computer crash and the repairman didn't replenish my photo reception software. So everything is up in the air. I never use WD40 except on squeaky doors and on my car. I oil my locos using only Labelle using a few drops applied off-site, and track cleaning is accomplished by hand and vacuum. I have lots of locos, probably 60-75, with traction tires, some as old as 30 years old, including Atlas Kato RS3's which are still intact after years of running. My incident with this loco started with taking it out of the box. I was careful, but noted the tender shell was loose, so when I finally got it out, I remounted the shell and it didn't run. I called Kato to find out what the problem could be and they walked me through the instruction sheet, which showed two tiny stirrups missing, and they advised they would send replacement parts n/c. In the meantime, I searched the box and found the stirrups and it ran, and on the first or second lap, the loco started to run clunky like a wheel got out of true. I retrieved it to find a fine rubber band all balled up in the main connecting rod. I tried to remove it, but it still ran quirky. There were still traction tire debris in other drivers, so I put it on my cradle, and took the bottom plate off. That is where I gave it up. The front pilot spring was launched into outer space. Now I took the loco apart, probably violating every rule of Kato warranty, but this is a new loco, and I am the only repairman in this area now, and I am stymied. So, out of pure desperation and some disgust and frustration, I put the unit back in its box, missing those terrible tight packing pieces and using plastic bag material to pack the loco, prepared a long letter, thinking off the Kato web site it it not covered, but expected some slack and compassion from them, as LifeLike, Roundhouse, ConCor and even Model Power had in years past to see it was a new unit, which I told them and give me a decent price for repair. It turned out that my method of packing infuriated them, they tried to tell me it arrived broken, which I doubt, and it already was, and charged me $45 to get it back. By now, I am between a rock and a hard place as they have my money and my loco, and I have nothing except a desire to get my loco back. After a month there, I send them the money and I get the invoice, which includes a "cleaning" - my unit was barely 3 minutes old on the track, duhhhhh. While waiting, I tell the Atlas forum and Victor Miranda and others tell me of the deficiencies of this unit including the several traction tires being thrown all over the place. And there was where I got my education, also seeing it on sale on eBay and in some LHS's - the hobbyists always find the truth somehow. Now I am ticked off. I spent a lot of quality time admiring this loco in a display case at an LHS, and budgeted my income to make a purchase with a small discount, and now this......... I am used to Kato making superlative locos, complete with indestructible traction tires, 5 pole motors, simplified efficient mechanisms, innovate electrical pickup,and on and on such as the Mikado they introduced 14 years ago. I had problems with that one too, and Kato provided support by sending me 11 drawbars, and advised me to run it and I will see that it gets stronger by the hour. I did and it did. Now that 1996 loco will pull 30 cars without spining tires - yes it has the traction tire added. But this one has problems beyond that, at least to me. I have had 28 years experience of repairs and maintenance with 3 pole motors and 5 poles, and yes there is a difference one can readily see just from one sitting at a workbench. Then seeing the single geared driver reminded me of my friend's JUNKY Spectrum J, and to put the tires on the drive wheels was to me, just plain stupid. So, I always think ahead. At least this time, there are Katophiles who worship the label, and considering that Kato makes a train and abandons for a couple of years, I have time while the demand for this beautiful loco continues or builds up, and will sell it and I am looking for about $130 now, as it has not only the original manufacture but now has been completely gone over in Schaumburg again. I have the documentation from the oriignal purchase. My plan is to sell the Kato GS4 and use that money to buy a ConCor GS4 as I have faith one will come up. I had one before and it was even "prettier" than Kato's unit, since it had white walls, and looked a little more regal going through my scenery. I also have backup units as well, a ConCor Kato Hudson fantasy Daylight which pulls the paint off the wall, a new Kato E8a which won't pull squat, and 4 older ConCor Kato PA's which pull. So until then my GS4 is boxed and set aside for future sale, which I will probably put on the bay because I have reduced the value of this one with my villification, and that will wear off in time. Judging from all of the Kato worshippers who attacked me on three boards, I will have a large customer base when this all wears down. I like to think my gameplan is sound, as I love the Daylight incredibly, still love Kato, but hate their behavior and attitude in this instance, and as long as I have an alternative, I set a goal and intend to keep it. I should have seen the signs, but. like a man in love, often overlook the obvious when pursuing this locomotive, thinking Kato will do no wrong, but just like the jilted women on "Cheaters" I was jilted by a very pretty locomotive with a blinking headlight. LOL. I have run out of steam per se with my sarcasm, humor, and basically attention in this regard to this locomotive. When I look at the case, I remember Gene Hackman in the Sharon Stone movie...."Your gunfighter is dead, OLD NEWS" and that is what I see. I am not going to modify it anymore, or send it back to Kato, because basically beyond responding to my rants, no one gives a damn. Let the new owner do what he wants with it. It is pristine now and rebuilt by Kato's Customer Service. That is why I learned to fend for myself, sell the unit, buy a ConCor which has already proven itself to me. This sort of lends me toward a newly formed opinion that Kato is not or possibly no longer capable of making quality steam, Even their original Mikado took a couple of production runs to get it right. Right now, the leaders in steam are ConCor, Atlas, Lifelike/Walthers, and yes, surprise, Model Power. I have purchased 8 MP steamers and all run like the old ConCor Kato Hudson, all for way under $100 each. Heck, I'm not even filling out the warranty cards, just run, then sit them on display and buy another. What really frustrates me is that Kato made a wonderful, terrific 4-8-4 high performance, state of the art platform in 1998 for ConCor S-2 Northern, had the tools for 6 or 7 years, then gave them back to ConCor. Why didn't they use that for the base. It was like they could and chose instead not to. That to me is the tragedy in this entire episode. Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman
FINAL UPDATE, AND I AM DONE ON ALL FORUMS FOR AWHILE....... I received my ConCor GS4 I purchased Tuesday night in the mail today, Saturday, 8/14, and put it on the track, and it is cosmetically way different from its Kato counterpart. It seems a little bigger until I looked real close and the vents/fins to divert steam from the boiler are a little higher making the loco look larger. Second, the side flare skirting is of different shape, and even armed with photos they are both close to the photo, but far apart when looked at together. Other than that they seem to be comparable. When I put it on the track, it ran smoothly, quietly, and powerfully, as right out of the box it is pulling about 12 ConCor Daylight smoothside passenger cars. The two main differences is that the Kato has the blinking headlight to simulate the Mars light, and the ConCor unit has whitewalls. To me I have seen photos of the GS4 with both blackwalls and whitewalls, and I surmise the whitewalls were removed when the tires were changed on the prototype. I have addressed the traction tire problem by not running the Kato unit much and treating and reinforcing the traction tire drivers. Second, the ConCor unit is nothing short of fantastic. Both I will keep until I get tired of one. Ken "FloridaBoy" Willaman
I model European steamers as well as US models. European models come with traction tires also and you actually need a crow bar to get em off. I never had a traction tire come off. I think that the traction tires are to big for the wheel itself and therefore slip and come off. I believe, if Kato applied a smaller radius traction tire, this problem would stop.
Hi Ken, I to had a Concor and it did look great, pulled great, and ran smoth most of the time. It developed an intermitent contact problem and I was advised by many people to sell it off and go with the Kato for reliabillity for adding sound. I fiddled with the Concor for many years and gave up. I do miss it as it was a birthday gift from the family so had some sentimental value. My Concor never gave up a traction tire either.
