John, thank you, that is wonderful, I love the pictures and the info is great, I'm learning something new every day with this topic!! See Natalie, You don't have to be a new fan to learn, and it takes ages to learn all this!!
Holy Toledo! Barbara posted this a while back. This is chock full of railroad terms! Thanks Barb! http://www.uprr.com/aboutup/rrtalk/
Hi everyone, WOAH!! I take a little hiatus to finish writing my brief and I come back to so much info!!! Thanks John, for the low down on the engine manufacturers... is that what you called them? Natalie, how ya doin over there? TONS of info, huh? I have to hand it to you, you definitely can hang much better than I can! Remember, I'm 3 months ahead of you!!! Everytime Ryan would ask me what kind of engine it was, my automatic response would be SD 40T-2... since that was his favorite engine, it was the only one I memorized... don't worry, it'll make sense after awhile! Ryan's favorite "Road" was the Southern Pacific-- the initials were S and P and so railfans made up "Es" "Pee"= Espee and that's why I call it Espee... UP the Union Pacific bought out Espee back in 1996 (uh oh! i forgot, ryan's gonna be disappointed!) and so now, there's this mad rush for Espee railfans to take as many pictures of ALL Espee engines they see before UP puts these fat stickers on them with UP markings and paints them yellow... Anyhow, John did a great job on explaining the stuff, but let me try to tell you in NON railfan terms-- it helps! think of trains as cars... each car is made by different manufacturers: FORD, TOYOTA, HONDA, DODGE. So the manufacturers of trains had their own names: EMD, GE, ALCO, etc. EMD is like FORD, GE is like TOYOTA, etc just like each Car company had different designs that came out every year or different cars, (how boring would life be if FORD only made Mustangs?): FORD mustang, FORD escort, FORD truck, EMD came out with different designs too: EMD S.D., EMD G.P., EMD F unit, EMD E unit. EMD SD is basically an engine with 12 wheels in all-- a car has 4 wheels right? so you would see 2 wheels on one side? car o-----o o-----o Well, an EMD S.D., you can see 3 wheels on the front end and 3 wheels on the back end. o-o-o------------o-o-o o-o-o -----------o-o-o that's what the wheels would look like for an SD. except they arent like car wheels cuz each o-o-o is connected... GP means 4 axle or o-o--------------o-o o-o--------------o-o SD are the stronger ones because they can carry and pull more than GP. but of course, like the TOYOTA truck, each year comes out with a new model, right? 2002 is much better than 1974, right? Same with EMD--- usually they came out with new designs for each engine: SD 40, next decade or so, SD 45, next SD 50, different variations of the SD40 is an SD 40T-2 or SD 45T-2... etc etc. Nowadays, I think they have SD 70Ms or SD 90s or whatever... keeps getting better and stronger... that's essentially what all the fuss is about... I THINK...I might be wrong everyone please correct me if I'm wrong, don't want to be teaching Natalie the wrong basic info! Does that kind of help you? Since I'm not a true blooded railfan and you're really a newbie, I can try to translate what everyone else is trying to tell you... don't worry it gets better when someone breaks it down for you in NON railfan terms! anna [ 06 April 2002, 05:49: Message edited by: railfan_girlfriend ]
Heheheheee...I'm Going to get it for this one! Telling a trueblood that a Ford is like EMD is the same as saying Ford is like Chevy!!! GM owns EMD, so the guys that are making Chevys are also making just about half the Diesels out there. Just about the other half are made by a division of General Electric, the same people that brought you your Washer, Dryer, Refrigerator, and light bulbs. I don' know if Toyota has their own division, but I wouldn't doubt that they are making something of the sort in Japan. And the same goes with everyone else. Couldn't find anyone with Ford.
ooops, thanks benny for telling me that... i didn't mean to make any actual connections between FORD and EMD or TOYOTA and GE. I was attempting to make a simile, a mere analogy, for the sake of explanation.
Anna, Now I'm going to give you a lesson from a steam fanatic "me" on diesels... The GP diesel would pull more tonage trains and are stronger then the SD diesels... HA! Reason why is their is more weight on the rail on a GP diesel. The SD diesels had the extra axle to spread the weight over a larger amount of wheels so it was easier on light "smaller weight rail". Where the GP was dumping alot of weight on 4 axles it was getting better traction and less slipage. See? More axles ment lighter weight on wheels, less wheels means more weight on wheels. See? The SD-40 and GP-40 had the same horse power just the SD spreaded the weight out over more axles to reduce stress on lighter rail. Where the GP had alot of weight on less wheels and had more tractive power but its weight was stressfull on light rail. Hence the SD meaning Special Duty=SD... GP meaning General Purpose=GP. As for the E units of EMD I must say that the trucks were really confusing.. The center wheel was NOT powered on the earlier units. like the EA's to E-6's I believe. They were special classed as A1A trucks. Meaning that the truck "000" had the front axle powered, "0-" and the middle axle "-o-" not powered, and then the rear axle was powered "-0" so it would be like this on the E units 0o0-----------0o0, the small "o" is to represent the unpowered axle as the "0" was the powered ones... This was as I've said called A1A trucks... "A" meaning powered and "1" meaning unpowered. These were designed to more or less carry weight and also for high speed gearing purposes and posstion of the electric motors on the truck, being that these loco's were used mostly in passenger service. Alot "everyone actually" calls diesels, "diesels", see? But thats an incorrect term! The actual name is "Diesel Electric"... their like a power plant on wheels thats self propelled... In other words for you to understand, The diesel motor inside is only their to run a generator either for DC current or AC current electric, to power the motors in the trucks that powers the wheels. So the diesel motor only runs to power up a electric generator that powers the electric motors in the trucks. [ 06 April 2002, 10:52: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]
Clayton, Your right I believe on the UP's Big Boys... They were rated at 6000 Horse power... Thing is on a steam loco the horse power wasn't the quallity factor. They were better loco's with weight. You could get 6000 HP and no weight which wouldn't pull a fly off the wall... Thats why the Big Boy weighed 540 TON! The Big Boys wre strong I know, and also large, I have a GIF file in my signature that has moving wheels and all of a UP Big Boy. The B&O's EM-1's were noted for being a steam Cady "Cadilac" But was NOT the strongest on the B&O roster. The steamers were more effient with tractive force, which is the rating of how good or how bad a preticular steamer was. The B&O's EM-1's was rated right at 5000 horse power with 115,000 pounds of tractive effort. But thats nothing compared to the B&O's EL-5's These were shorter and had smaller drivers "wheels" and was bulky looking breathing dragons for the B&O! They was rated at 4500 to 4800 horse power and had 118,000 pounds of tractive effort. But, you knew their would be a "but" an exception to the rule. And here comes the confusing part for the females, The B&O's EM-1 was a "Simple Articulated" steam loco like the Espee's Cab Forwards was, it was like having 2 regular steam loco's under one boiler. Which means that the boiler produced steam to all 4 cylinders at the same time.. The B&O's EL-5's were a original Mallet "pronounced Malley" which was a French design. which means that the rear set of cylinder got steam first! They DID NOT send steam presure to all 4 cylinders at the same time. The boiler sent steam presure to the rear set of cylinders FIRST, the exhaust was then sent to the front set of cylinders, which powered that set of cylinders. Power was the virtue here, not speed. These loco's were made to haul 10,500 tons of freight up steep grades and was made that the front set of engines articulated. To run on tight radius curves. Then in latter years they made them simple articulated being the train crew didn't like the running proportions of the true "Mallet" type being that the rear set of drivers had to slip awhile till the front set got steam presure to move an entire train alone! Then, you concider another "Giant"... The C&O Allegheny 2-6-6-6, it had more horse power then even the Big Boy. The Big Boy was rated at 6000 horse power, where the Allegheny was rated at 7500 horse power, and had a boiler to produce 8000 horse power. The UP Big Boy was made to run at 80 MPH with a mile long train on pretty straight track in the plains and also to climb low grades of 1.75% or so and done it job well at 70 MPH. The C&O Allegheny, was made to run on steep grades of the eatern Allegheny mountains on ever twisting sharp tight curves at 40 to 45 MPH. The Allegheny was able to run at 40 MPH hour and sustain that speed for a long period of time because of its horse power. It had a steady horse power at 40 MPH in excess of 7000 horse power. On the other hand the Big Boy had a steady horse power rating at 70 MPH at 6000 horse power. The Big Boy though couldn't get a train moving as fast as the Allegheny from a dead stop for its horse power. You need horse power to get all the wheels of a train rolling which the Allegheny had. And being it had that steady horse power it could sustain a speed of 40 MPH longer then the Big Boy. The B&O's EM-1 was made to run at 45 to 50 MPH and sustain at least 35 to 40 MPH at 5000 horse power. And weighed 505 tons. With 115,000 pounds of tractive effort on its drivers... To give an idea of what the wheels of these loco's looked like heres a Wyte System of steam classification... o-0000-0000-oo = Yellowstone 2-8-8-4 "EM-1" oo-0000-0000-oo = Big Boy 4-8-8-4 o-0000-0000 = U.S.R.A. 2-8-8-0 "EL-5" o-0000-0000-o = U.S.R.A. 2-8-8-2 "Y6b" o-000-000-ooo =Allegheny 2-6-6-6 "H-8" Just an example of articulated and Mallet design steam engines to understand their wheel configuration.... [ 07 April 2002, 21:46: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]
7600, you're right and wrong about GP/SD pulling power. The original SDs were A1A, as you describe in the next para, and as such the total weight on each powered axle was lower - hence less traction. With a 6 motor SD (i.e. all six axles are powered) this doesn't hold as all the engine weight is carried by powered axles and so total traction is the same as a GP of the same weight. In practise sticking two extra wheels and motors under a loco usually gives a heavier loco, so an SD will usually outpull it's equivalent GP at low speeds. At higher speeds (>20-30mph) the horsepower available limits tractive effort so GP and SD are equal here. This is why SF bought a lot of high horsepower 'B' locos for fast intermodal work. Also, short lines often derate their diesel engines (low speeds all the time) by removing maintenance intensive turbochargers.
Mike, hold up... I didn't classify the SD class diesels A1A! I was talking about the EA's to I believe they had A1A trucks all the way up to the E-6... I was saying about the weight differences on the regular SD trucks being 6 motored trucks "All wheels powered" that the center axle took up weight from the tration power. On the GP's the axles carried more weight per axle for the type of loco with an average weight. Even being the GP and the DS counter parts had the same horse power their tractive effort was different. Think about it, the GP with 4 total axles and the SD with 6 total axles. The GP had more weight on the wheels then the SD did but had the same horse power. The traction wasn't as great on the SD's for this fact. I wasn't saying that the SD's were A1A's I was merely saying that the EA to E-6's were A1A's and the SD's were all axle powered... Or well the newer SD's were.. I imagine that the SD-7/9's were A1A but I'm not sure of those... [ 07 April 2002, 03:54: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]
John, how does a steam lovin' fella know so much about diesels?????????????? Hmmmmmmmm. Are you hiding something from us here?
All E units up through the E9's had A1A trucks. But if you compare the weight of, say, a GP40-2 and an SD40-2, the axle loading is actually about the same. Here are some numbers from the LLP website (note: the axle loading was calculated by me): <table cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1" border="1" width="75%"><tr><td valign="Top"> </td><td valign="Top">GP40-2 </td><td valign="Top">SD40-2 </td></tr><tr><td valign="Top">Weight </td><td valign="Top">257,000 lbs. </td><td valign="Top">368,000 lbs. </td></tr><tr><td valign="Top">Tractive Effort </td><td valign="Top">55,400lbs. @11.5 mph </td><td valign="Top">83,100 lbs. @11.1 mph </td></tr><tr><td valign="Top">Axle Loading </td><td valign="Top">64,250 lbs./axle </td><td valign="Top">61,333 lbs./axle </td></tr></table> I think that is actually pretty light for an SD40-2. Most numbers that I have seen are closer to 380,000 lbs. and up. Since the axle loading is basically equal, the difference in tractive effort is due strictly to the number of powered axles: 55,400 lbs. / 4 axles = 13,850 lbs./axle 13,850 lbs./axle * 6 axles = 83,100 lbs. Nope, the SD7/9's had all axles powered. Dwight [ 07 April 2002, 13:36: Message edited by: Dwightman ]
Wow!! I leave for a day, and Steam engines are basically explained!! Alright Gang!!! John, thanks for the info on the EM-1 Very interesting and helpful. And to Johnny Trains, EM-1 has to learn about the locomotives that are replacing his beloved 7600 Now I didn't see a basic form of how the Steam engines ran. They burned wood, coal and oil in that order with coal and oil overlapping in time periods. The "coal car" that carried the fuel is actually a "tender" The fuel is fed into a fire in the "firebox" which heats the water that is in the boiler...the steam that was created is forced into a chamber and rods push it out....turning the wheels of the engine. Here is simple example of how a steam engine works. If you want to look at a Steam engine in your house (we all have one) got to your kitchen and boil a kettle of water and watch the steam pressure push out the top..the top bounces around and the steam escapes. Hope this helps those who get lost in the hp/tractive effort and such.
Dwight, That exactly what I was meaning on the difference from a SD to a GP. You just put it in words better then I did. However I did know that the E's were A1a's but I thought they had went to all powered axles on the E-8 and E-9's... I must have somewhere crossed referenced in in my reading... And on the SD-7/9's I thought they were all axle powered but I wasn't exactly sure.... So I didn't say, I figured someone would if I posted it that how I did so... And Johnny T Yep I know more then I'd like. I'd rather be a steam buff from one end to the other... But the diesels after awhile being you see them and all, they begin to "grow" on ya... Clayton, Yep I did the most I could off the top of my head... For the expalaination of steamers... I didn't get into the smaller steamers being that they all where different from one to another... so... But I will get a steam loco classification together based on the "Wyte System of classification" for the girls so they can tell the differences and all from one wheel arangement to the name of that wheel arangement of that preticular locomotive...
Great John, well I am backing up with one of t hem girls and we are going to go through what the diesel designations mean SD50 and so on...so I would love to know all of them I could list what I think I know but I don't want to confuse anybody.
Clayton, I'd start out by naming them off by manufacturer... Start with EMD and name every diesel type they made... then go to G.E.... etc... thats how I'd do that so it wouldn't be so confusing....
John, that is what I just did anf left it in our mail box. It will take some time but it will be done. Say I haven't seen your GF on here!
I believe we have threads that have started on doing this...naming every loczamotive made by (X) manufacturer. I don't know where it is though.
Clayton, Yeah I know my better half didn't join, she was going to but lost her computer so.... It crashed after the warrenty was up and I don't believe she'll be getting the net back... Unless she buys a new computer... She was going to join tho. Which stinks. I wanted her too.. I'm sure her liking for the little trains would have been a thrill "N scale" But like she got off the computer and went to get back online I guess the next day her comp would not even turn on... So I went to look at it to see if it was that her wall plug was unplugs "being one of those things ya know" and it was pluged in and it worked and all so.. But I went to turn her comp on and it didn't boot up so... Its done... I told her to let me know that I'd help her get it fixed and shes like totally not up to that... She's very independant and all so... But if she gets another computer or gets hers fixed, I'm going to see if she'll join and all.. I had her talked into it but then that happen which through that idea out the window.... "Windows 95" that is.. HA! But if I'm going to help her "if she will let me anyway" I'm having her old set of Windows 95 updated to either "98" or "XP" I don't know which.... I've heard stories on them both being kinda crappy so. But I have "Windows 98" so... And it seems to be better then the "ME" and "XP" counter parts...As I've seen and heard from friends and all thats has them. [ 08 April 2002, 21:17: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]
Benny, there might be, but I wanted to start a thread that would combine all facets of the hobby, and railroads. And all the info would be in one easy to access place.
I guess I grew up watching "second generation" diesels getting old. I love steam and have see it my fair share of times, but still get a thrill seeing a 50 year old switcher doing duty in some short line job. And while in Cincinatti, right in front of my face I watched an old CSX MP15 come to the rescue of a stalled train, on a grade and with enough cars to vanish around the bend in the distance. That little switcher pulled that train in front of us......and stopped! Don't know if he made it any farther but he did pull it 1/4 mile or so. That's when my camera broke.............(Ah! but I did shoot that before it broke! just had to go find another camera at that point...........DRAT!)
