Getting rid of the Micro Trains coupler bouncy, bounce.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

I did use the word "Exagerated" right? Yes, I do understand what you are talking about. I've seen the same thing happen on my layout. It is an exagerated SLACK action. I wouldn't change it for anything. Upside, it's your layout and you can do what you want with it.

Just giving you my thoughts on the subject. Glad to make your day.

 

It's Slinky, it's Slinky, it's fun, it's a wonderful toy.......oops, wrong product! Seriously though, as Rick noted it is up to individual preference. With that said, I do appreciate the information that is shared on this forum. In lieu of the rubber band, how about cutting up an o-ring? I work in aviation and from my experience I can tell you that o-rings come in various materials and the most common (nitrile) will easily last 10 years or more. They are cheap and readily available (but not as cheap as runner bands).

 

Well another interesting topic and as always some differing points of view on the subject. I really don’t like the term slinky as it conjures up an exaggerated picture of motion. There is slack action and then there is excessive slack action and both can occur in the real world and do every day. Then there is the side to side oscillation, which also occurs in the real world, and also occurs in our miniature worlds. On the one to one side of things cars are equipped with dampers and other devices to minimalize those effects which can be set in motion by dips in the track and other factors. And I’ve seen my share of the occasional one to one cars in a consist that had such severe side to side and bouncing around that I felt they were going to come off the track. Usually the ride leveled out after that section of track was passed and seemed to be most noticeable on empty cars. If it didn’t it was probably a car that needed some shop time.

The slack action of MTs doesn’t cause me heartburn as it is prototype. Model train cars that look like one of those trick cars you see in a parade with the wacky suspension bouncing around do and I don’t entirely agree with the couplers as being the culprits. What I have found over the years is the following causes.

Poor track work in both the roadbed and especially in short sectional track of being spiked down to firmly causing dips in the track and poor joints which can also be caused by the same issue.

Trucks not properly seated on the car bolsters, often being too loose, and having too much side to side movement. When the car is picked up the trucks shouldn’t dangle from the car. There should be some minimal side to side motion but not excessive while it still pivots freely. And you shouldn’t be able to slide the truck side to side on the bolster pin.

The wheel sets themselves; I have found numerous instances of poor quality in the wheels with them being warped or with them poorly fitting in the sideframes with too much front to rear, side to side, and up and down play. Needle point axles should rotate freely in the frames and not bounce around. I’ve had plastic wheels, new out of the package, that when placed in the truck wobbled badly due to the plastic wheel being canted on the plastic axle. I’ve had far less issues like this with metal wheels.

Also there is the issue of cars being properly weighted and the weights being properly centered and secured in the cars. I am not a 100% believer in the NMRA recommended pratice on weighting and instead go more for having adequate weight that insures the car stays on the rails and performs whether being pushed or pulled.

While the application of cut pieces of rubber bands in place of the coupler springs may cure some issues to me it is not a cure all. It also is a route I will not take due to maintenance issues. I’ve had rubber bands deteriorate in a year or two, and with the size of my car fleet, and my getting older, and having to replace them is not doable for me.

While I know that there are some that will take issue with my statements that doesn’t bother me in the least. It’s my story and view and I’m sticking to it.

 

My rolling stock are all equipped with body-mounted MT-1015 couplers, FVM metal wheelsets and weighted according to the NMRA standard. I have no problems with slinking as described above. From what I've read, the MT-1015s are designed to prevent this when the train is moving forward. There is a minor slinky effect when I shove a cut of cars into a classification track.

Consider putting the MT truck restraining spring described earlier in cabooses. Also, regarding truck/bolster pins, a trick is to have the pin in one truck installed rather firm and having the the other truck/bolster pin somewhat loose.


Another thing that causes the slinky effect is locomotive performance. Any slight jerking of the loco because of mechical issues and/or dirty track causes cars in the train to "slink".

 

The slinky effect is more prominent when moving small trains of 10 cars more or less. I do not notice it as much with longer trains. Though it doesn't bother me enough to make a change, I prefer the Accumates over the MT's

 

Quoting myself, ""Howbeit the "Slack" being a bit over stated"" or defined "Exagerated".

I knew my comment would stir up the hornets nest. You need to know I did not intend for it to be a put down to Ken. I'ma pleased that Ken took the time to share with us how he is solving a percieved problem. To say it the way we used to in Grade School, I'ma on his side if that's what he wants to do. As a mature adult I would say he's found to a way to solve a percieved problem.

MicroTrains has taken many an undeserved... hits since they first started production of their couplers. SO in defense of MicroTrains, at a early stage in production a number of prototypers suggested certain qualities they were looking for. Everything out there was so rigid there was little to no slack, we couldn't keep train cars on the tracks as quite often the rigidity of the couplers pulled them off the track. We, (Although I was not directly involved...wrote a number of letters to the editors...never published.) WE got, what we asked for and have been happy with the results ever since.

Now in my defense: I tend to be a stand alone kind of guy and I don't mind that. If you ever get a chance to talk to the Rails (Employees of the 1X1 foot scale) espeacily the old timers that served as conductors, brakeman, switchman and rode the crummies and hacks. They would tell you stories of switchman standing on the rear platform of the caboose and being literally tossed off the platform and on to the tracks as the slack pulled out. Whiplash effects with subsequent kneck and back injuries.... as they rode in behind the train. Telling of feeling the slack move forward and then jerk backwards shoving the crummy hard. Engineers feeling the slack move forward on a dowhill grade all but shoving the locomotive forward. If you think our models replicate some of this action "Slack" you'd be correct.

What I see on my layout is very much like the real deal. Like the engineer I have to slow the train before descending down a steep grade (any grade in model railroading is a steep grade) speed up the train to keep the cars stretched out howbeit, with what seems to be minor adjustments. I use Momentum a lot when operating analog DC and DCC. I do indeed dig, enjoy, look on with pride... seeing my trains replicate the 1X1 foot scale.

I do understand MicroTrains is looking at the problem but I for one would be disappointed if they opt to provide rigid couplers. Heck, you can buy those from a bunch of wanna be, look alike, (Do I dare say toy train) ........... dummy couplers. I said not grinning.

I hope that clears the air. After all these days, air quality is priority one....(Don't get me started).

Yes, I do know what I'ma a talking about.

A shout out of thanks to those who came to my defense, the kind words and thoughts shared.

 

The "bounce" (I call it a "jerking", since bounces tend to be vertical) action is part of a bigger problem. The split-coupler design and the spring are the problem. The prototype doesn't have a small gap of air sandwiched between two vertical pieces of coupler. We need something akin to the Kadees where the spring is not inside and set horizontally, but around the knuckle. That also solves the bigger problem of not having a standardized draft gear box size in N scale. Surely in 2013 something can be engineered like that?

 

Now in my defense: I tend to be a stand alone kind of guy and I don't mind that. If you ever get a chance to talk to the Rails (Employees of the 1X1 foot scale) espeacily the old timers that served as conductors, brakeman, switchman and rode the crummies and hacks. They would tell you stories of switchman standing on the rear platform of the caboose and being literally tossed off the platform and on to the tracks as the slack pulled out. Whiplash effects with subsequent kneck and back injuries.... as they rode in behind the train. Telling of feeling the slack move forward and then jerk backwards shoving the crummy hard. Engineers feeling the slack move forward on a dowhill grade all but shoving the locomotive forward. If you think our models replicate some of this action "Slack" you'd be correct.

As someone who worked a a fireman on the NKP during the mid 60s while going to college, I can tell you that I experienced all of these effects of slack. I definitely felt the engine often pushed forward as the slack rolled in even in flat northwestern Ohio. In fact the engine would be starting up hill while the slack at the middle to the end of the train would be running in. Then the slack would run out and you would feel the engine pulled back. This was on a barely noticeable hill and valley. In addition, my parents, who worked as clerks in the trainmaster's office, would often talk about "taking hearings" for an engineer or fireman who started out too quickly and broke a drawbar. Engineers also told me that they never put the train in emergency braking because they could not stop quickly enough to not hit something on the track and would only injure the conductor and brakeman. we also started getting some of the newer bay window cabooses in Lima and hey switch crew in the yards set up a joke on me when I was running the switch engine and we were picking up this caboose to put it on the end of a train. well I hit the coupler at the normal speed that we did with the old cupola caboose not knowing about the extra springy couplers on the bay window and it rocked like crazy. The conductor came out of the back door screaming and throwing towels and mops. Of course, he was in on it and they all had a good laugh at me and told my parents in the office. Great experiences working those summers on the railroad and made me a much better engineer in a manufacturing organization. I learned to ask advice of the experienced workers.

Jack S

 

Thanks Jack, Salute.

 

Your welcome Rick. Actually, I have designed some of these dips into my layout straight sections and do see some slack action.

Jack S

 

After reading this i remembered that I have lots of o-rings used that I have from when I had a Paintball supply store and we did lots of air system repairs.
So I will see if I can find some that are the correct diameter and springiness. I will report back if I come up with anything.

 

You don't have to. If you run transition period then all you need do is equip your caboose. If you run modern then you need a FireFly FRED. A truck mounted self contained EOT device [it is patented]. You need an EOT device anyway if no caboose so the FireFly FRED is your ticket. What also helps is to add weight to your cars which, most of the time, are too light anyway. The newer releases with die cast frames really do not bounce that much. FireFly Freds are truck mounted track powered and totally self contained. They can be seen on Ebay. Go here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/N-Scale-EOT-FireFly-FRED-/130612644374

 

I do run modern. That looks cool...thanks for the link.

 

All the people saying the 'slinky' effect is the same as slack action on the prototype, IT IS NOT. Slack running in or out happens ONCE and stops when the couplers reach their limits of travel, it doesn't bounce back and forth like the MTL couplers do. I'm a railroader and I've spent time riding the vans (cabooses) of freights when we still had them and I never had to wait to get on or off while it stopped bouncing back and forth.

 

I tried some different o-rings that I had. They are all to stiff to use, no matter how soft and springy they feel and no matter what size.
One felt even softer and springier then the rubber band, but I did not compress the same. Some day some thing may come along.
For now I did the last 25 cars today and am very happy with the effect.Other then the irregularities of the track, as in the real world track work there is just a little slack to take out when starting to pull and then just smooth after that.

 

I'm an engineer too , While I don't like the slinky effect on the microtrains cars I can testify to the fact that I've been spanked by a freight train coming through a sag. If the yard crew marshalled the train with loads on the rear its not easy to get away from the slack running in. Usually I remember the spots where this happens and make an effort to prevent it next trip.

Randy

 

Randy, and Westfalen, At least you know that the slinky effect it not the norm. Some can not seem to tell reality from N-scale MT coupler fantasy.
Any way I am done here and I am so very happy with the results of converting all 53 cars with MT couplers. It is a joy to run them. I am off to the next, save thew world of N-scale thingy.
So have fun and run N-scale

 

Let's build a better mouse trap, I mean coupler. Has anyone considered retaining the spring in the MT coupler and inserting a nylon wire inside the spring to limit the spring compression? I am thinking of the nylon wire found in clothing that retains tags to a garment or something like it. It would need to be flexible allowing the coupler to return to center yet limit the compression of the spring, which is the cause of the slinky action.

Let's not give up too soon on discovering a more permanent solution.

Jerry

 

Westfallen, don't be hating me. You got to know I respect your input SO no offense meant here.

When most 1X1 foot scale trains came to a stop, the air brakes are on (engineer dumped the air) and I've seen brakeman (on locals) crank the manual brake wheel down on the crummy to keep it from "bouncing" (as Jack described) or said another way, whiplashing back and forth. Our toy trains...ahh...model trains, they don't have air brakes and we depend on the locomotive grinding to a halt, to act as the brakes. "Overexaggerated Slack" is what you see. Touch that throttle without momentum on and you can shake, bounce, wiplash, slink and/or jack knife your train...into a most upleasant mess.

MicroTrains came up with a spring that fit in the bearing of the truck, on one wheel set for the caboose. It will relax some of the "Slink" you guys talk about. Just remember for every action there is a opposite and equal reaction (I hope I said that right? I mean, what do I know...COL).

I'ma not disagreeing that the action of some MR train operators, resembles a slinky and yes, slack (technically) isn't the same thing. However, any movemement in the train is technically called "Slack" by the RAILS. I think I've been trying to make that point. The action I see (throttle in my hands) is close enough to the prototype to call it "Slack". I do agree that when you use the math and measure what is going on there is more then just sloop in the coupler.... causing the problem you guys have identified. "Exaggerated Slack," Rick said. Downside, the math is hardly something you'd see with the naked eye...like arguing that a cab on a diseasel is one scale foot to long or wide or to tall. Upside, close enough for me and I absolutely enjoy operating my trains with the "Slack" in mind. Just like Jack and his layout, I built in some of those minor elevations so I could sit back and railfan my layout with a really big grin.

Let's see, did I say you can buy other toy train couplers.....to solve the problem?:uhoh:
For me and my layout I will stick with these really awkward MicroTrains Couplers.
Love'em...the best out there. No modifications.
Does that help!

BUT, who listens to old Rick....anyways. LOL