Don't know about Metrolink, but you have a better chance of a random drug test than getting prompted for tickets on the TRE here in Dallas. (which is a good thing, because their ticket machines don't work all the time, and when they do they are so confusing it takes newbies forever to fiddle around with and get the right ticket. This means if you get there 10 minutes before the train you probably won't have time to get a ticket.) The conductor probably makes the rounds and may spot check for tickets but it's definitely not their primary purpose and probably doesn't detract from their other duties. The commuter lines rely more on the "honor system" and more importantly fear of a citation if you don't have a ticket when they do happen to check. I don't know how the TRE handles freeloaders, but in Chicago they give you the option of buying an "on-board fare" that is something crazy like $60 or getting a ticket that probably costs several hundred dollars. So the "on-board fare" is really just a lesser plea and probably a pretty good idea for all involved. I think you'll find that--like a lot of the differing opinions about traveling through turnouts, or the wisdom of playing a musical instrument while several hundred people's lives are in your hands--there are many "half-truths" to be found. I'm sure Metrolink will tell you it's policy to approach every patron for their tickets every day.
Paul does make a good point though. If you know your territory, you know where to stop, how long it will take to stop, where all the signals, crossings, bridges, etc... are. Rolling into the siding, digging in your grip, getting a bottle of water, getting your lunch out, rolling your seat back... all normal, daily occurrences. Engineers that work districts that get heavy fog tend to know more about the territory, all the landmarks, etc... Even more so if grades or single track are involved. There are situations that demand every ounce of your attention focused on your job and there are situations where you can relax a little. My "cherry" trip in the fog... H BARPAS... eight units on the head end, three cut-in for dynamics, 5,500 tons, 7000 feet, 50 tons per operative brake... not a fun train to begin with... It was raining hard going through Tehachapi about 0200, dropping down into Cable, engines slipping, I made my set, train bogged down hard, kicked it off, held it as long as I could, made another set... looked up, clear signal approaching Cable... engines still slipping, set a little more air, watching my guages, train is handling poorly, look up again... nothing but white... first reacction... where am I??? Look over at the Conductor, sound asleep, no help there... Got my landmarks, ok I know where I am... train still not handling right... stopped at Cable, charged the brake pipe and started over... finally got the train to balance ok about Marcel... track speed, clear blocks... realized my posterior had not touched the seat since the top of the hill... the fog is thick, can only see about six ties in front of me... Went in the siding at Bealville, crept up to the signal at the bottom... met a couple of trains, then headed into Bakersfield... Heavy fog all the way to the depot... Just about kisssed the ground when I stepped off... Couldn't keep the Conductor awake for nothing... either he didn't care, or had a lot of faith in me... That's a situation that demands everything of you, clear weather is a lot different. Back to the subject... It is very possible that the Metrolink Engineer had become disabled. With the speeds and short distances, the alerter ("dead-man") device may not have had time to put the train in penalty. A cell phone distraction is possible, but there had to be more involved in the causes. I agree, put that stuff away, with more and more liability placed on the Engineer, you don't need that stuff. If the Engineer in question had been using his phone, ran a red block, and survived the wreck, no doubt he would have spent the rest of his life in jail. That's a risk I'm not willing to take. As for the news media... They tend to take little tid-bits of information and make a novel out of it. I would wait until the NTSB report is made public before trusting the news media. I have my own theories on what happened, based on my experience as a Railroader. Everyone makes mistakes... I made a lot of mistakes, did a lot of stupid stuff, been "fired", nearly killed, most of which happened within the first two years of service. I've got eight years in, 33 more to go... I've matured a lot since then. I've seen what stupidity and ignorance can and will do. It has made me a very safe employee. It takes years to learn how the railroad works, how and why rules are applied, what and what not to do, etc... It only takes a split second for things to foul up. If you don't catch it, your toast...
May have absolutely nothing to do with it, but I noticed there were like two grade crossings between the Chatsworth station stop and the accident site - one just short of the home signal at the switch. I didn't find any immediate hits to indicate if there was a valid whistle ban in that area - anybody know? Just seems to me it would be a lot harder to ignore a signal indication staring at you at the end of the tangent just past the crossings 'if' your head was up blowing for the crossing than if it were a quiet zone. The event recorder should show that, too, unless it was a quiet zone, indicating the engineer was actively involved with operating rather than distracted. And geez, even in a quiet zone, I've never seen an engineer that wasn't on full alert coming up on a heavy crossing like in that town, with one hand near the brake handle. I had rather mixed reaction tonight to the one news report that had the NTSB spokesperson using the accident to campaign for posititive train separation. Well, they have been pushing that for years in reports, and now this is being used again. It just seems like they are using the accident to leverage (defend?) the recommendations they've done before, and that seems a little unseemly at the moment, even if it might be right in the end. There's just got to be more to this than face value. Hope it comes out soon. And yeah, Joe, I sure salute your posts too here, you're calling it like it is, and you know your own territory.
<<<<<I don't know if its a RAT I smell, but I would say maybe you should pay a little more attention to your job during train meets? At least if it happens to you WE will know who to blame because you have admitted to the World your not paying attention. If you think you a old head and it can't happen to you....Those are famous last words my friend..>>>>>>>>> RFE...you don't get what I'm trying to say here! I can chew gum and walk at the same time. I didn't say I was dinging in my grip every meet...of thousands! I was trying to make a point. You didn't seem to get it..my point. I think other engineers here would get it. Now I can see, a railfan can't. So, get this straight...I ran trains for over 27 years on some of the most difficult divisions in the USA. I never ran a red signal or had an accident. I just don't buy the cell phone. Maybe we will find out what the "Event Recorder" shows. PM
Not to be callous, but using any device in the cab (cell phone, ipod, etc) is in direct violation with FRA rules. And if the Metro engineer was texting while the train was moving, you can see why this rule is in place. I hope the families of those that were killed in this incident are comforted in their time of loss. Any word on the UP crew? I'm suprised none of the news stations aparently gave a crap about them or their conditions.
I can't put my fingers on it but I believe I read that they jumped to safety. :tb-confused: :tb-confused: :tb-confused: :tb-confused:
Joe....nice post. I worked the same territory as you, from 1979 to 1990. Naturally, I went to West Colton from Bakersfield. I see that Mojave to Tehachapi is now CTC. It was double track back then. I do remember the fog. I use to have rocks, culverts, bridges pick out for those nights in the fog. Is the big crossing gate reflector still nailed on the telephone pole just east of the east switch Cliff? As I remember, it was about three cars from the A signal. I was a LA Engineer, but we had 20% of the turns on the Palmdale Cutoff then. In 2000, I traded with a Tucson Engineer and started working Tucson to El Paso. Retired a few years ago. BTW...RFE, I didn't play my guitar coming down the Tehachapis in the fog. So, rest easy. Joe, you have a better way with words, than I. So, I'll let you keep the "Fomers" in line on this group. I was just trying to make a point that, I didn't buy the cell phone text messaging story. Does anyone know if Chatsworth Station is west (north) of the east Chatsworth Siding switch? In other words, did the Metro Engineer go past a "yellow" then make a station stop....only to proceed and forget about the Yellow? That is, as Joe will tell you, easy to do. PM
It is. The station is on the main (I assume) with the siding across from it. The siding is long enough for a typical freight to sit stopped while a Metrolink passes by on the main. The same thought about the yellow had occurred to me, but I think read somewhere that there is a signal at the station. Could be wrong about that. There should be one, I would think.
This is almost off topic, but kinda cool... If you go to the Chatsworth Station in google maps and click on "Streetview" you can pan around and see a freight train that was traveling alongside the Google van at almost the same speed. Funny thing is I'm not sure you can tell which direction it was going...
Chatsworth..singal? I don't see why they would put another signal between siding switches. Trains are "delayed in the block" all the time (between opposing signals). You need to be ready to stop at the next signal; even if you enter the block on a green (clear aspect). PM
There is an intermediate signal just east of the depot, on the east side of Lassen St. I've seen it mentioned that the Engineer did call out the approach aspect prior to the station stop. If the Engineer was coherent after departing from the depot, rule 9.9, B should have been observed regaurdless of previous signal indicaiton as Paul has stated(delayed within a block, CTC). With the track being dead straight between the depot and CP Topanga, the signal should have been visible while stopped at the depot. Having signals/track visible on either side of the depot would eliminate the need to be prepared to stop, thus speed up departure(assuming proceed indication is visible). Not sure if there is a quiet zone in effect there. Even if there is, ringing the bell is still a requirement, and that will show on the tapes.
Ahhh my favorite people have gotten ahold of a story and are beating it to death. I just love the news media. I want to follow them around and try to ruin their lives. They make news whenever it's a slow day and they also show ignorance when they know not what they speak of. I got the joy of hearing the question "Why isn't there a button that a train dispatcher can push and stop all the trains?" from one of those idiots on FOX network. As far as the text message theory. You can recieve them and not answer them. I wonder how many people are killed daily/weekly/monthly/yearly answering text messages driving a car or semi truck?????? We have 1 collision between 2 trains and the media blows it out of proportion. I know it is a tragedy but they don't know the whole story yet. I wonder why we even have the FRA or NTSB or really any police for that matter. The news media pukes hold a trial everyday and you are guilty so they can make news. I am sick and tired of the media and their stupidity!!! Let the real investigators do their job and find out what happened. Most people have cell phones today. I know we have all used them while driving at one time or another. I know that text messaging happens while driving or operation a locomotive. I think the media is looking for a scape goat and they are finding it in a dead man's cell phone. This guy still has a family out there and I am sure they are very upset for the loss they have felt and are also wondering what happened. I KNOW the news media won't apologise for their mistakes ever! It must be nice to have a job that you need to know nothing about just have an opinion and make news from it. I HATE THE NEWS MEDIA!!!!!!!
News Media It's not just FOX....it's all of the Media, news papers, etc. You're right, there will never be any retraction of the cell phone story. By the end of this week, it well all be Obama and McCain again. Thank you 11 year old rail fans and the Media. I know the engineer on the UP local. I was told he jumped and broke and arm or broke something. PM
Paul, The CTC between Tehachapi and Mojave is the CP at Tehachapi, the CP at Cameron, the #1 track(#2 before UP) between Cameron and the top end of Mojave, and the CP at Mojave. All the rest is still DT, ABS. I think that gate reflector is still there at Cliff. I'll double check next time I'm up there. As for my posts, I put a lot of time into them, often changing wording, content, etc... I try to make sure all the "facts" are correct prior to posting them. In my "foamer" days before hiring out, I thought I knew everything. Not until I hired out and started working on my own did I realize I didn't know squat. Can't stand railfanning anymore... I see enough of the railroad as it is. I do model the Espee... 41 years ago...
<<<<<Can't stand railfanning anymore... I see enough of the railroad as it is. I do model the Espee... 41 years ago...>>>>>>>>>> We all got that way after hiring out. After about a year, of the phone ringing in the middle of the night, the fun wears off. I still have a lot of friends that are railfans. But, as I stated in an earlier post; many railfans know just enough about railroading to be dangerous. I'm starting to think the Metro Engineer just had his head up his ass. We've all been there,with our head up our ass, but just didn't suffer this catastrophic of a consequence. I wish we were privy to what the "Event Recorder" had to say. I'll be in Bakersfield for the SPH&TS Convention is a few weeks. I'm looking for a Bakersfield rail fan, Mark Dennis. Great photographer. He has a shot of me picking up our Karl's Jr. food order in Mojave, 1986. Had the SP7300 on the point. SP us to feeds us from Karl's ever trip. They had a RR menu, we would radio the order to the operator at Mojave, he would call Karl's Jr. across the street. The good old days! Ask some of the old head Santa Fe guys about the food orders, they'll remember. Also, if you can find a copy of the December 1977 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman, check out the Kit Bashing award that month. PM
I think the Cell phone thing is being doubly blown out of proportion, because CA's handfree law went into effect in July and there's a measure before the state legislature to explicitly ban texting while driving as well. So Cell phone use, in particular in California, is a hot button issue. So of course they are jumping on it. Like I said, I couldn't beleive these kids and their lack of remorse. Regardless of whether the guy was texting or not, he was their friend. I'd be devastated.
Posted on today's (9-16-08) Trains Newswire...... Please understand that I am merely copying a public posting that may not be available to TB members. I am not, nor do I intend to take a position for or against what is being discussed in this thread. However, I eagerly look forward to reading what is posted because the active and retired RR employees provide an insight that is rarely discussed on a predominately "foamer" forum. Thank you for your openness. NTSB: Engineer didn't repeat conductor's signal call Print | Email | Contact Us September 16, 2008 LOS ANGELES - California may pass a law banning train crews from using cellular phones as more details are revealed in what caused Friday's deadly train crash near Chatsworth, Calif., the Associated Press has reported. The death toll from the crash now stands at 26; it's the deadliest train crash since the wreck of Amtrak's Sunset Limited on Alabama's Bayou Canot in 1993. The General Code of Operating Rules, the rulebook in effect on most rail lines in California, prohibits train crews from using electronic devices for non-work-related matters. However, an emergency order under consideration by the state's public utilities commission would also make cell phone use a crime with stiff penalties. The National Transportation Safety Board is continuing to investigate whether the engineer of the Metrolink train that crashed head-on into a Union Pacific freight was text-messaging at the time of the crash. It's issued a subpoena for his phone records; provider Verizon Wireless has five days to respond to the subpoena. The NTSB continues to release details from its preliminary investigation. It has tested the signal involved, and has found it works properly. It also revealed the engineer was Robert Sanchez, 46, of La Crescenta, Calif., who'd worked on Metrolink trains under various auspices since 1996. Sanchez has been described as a loner, living in a simple home with four miniature greyhound dogs. He's also been described as a lifelong rail enthusiast. Audio recordings of radio communication show Sanchez and his conductor, as rules require, communicated the indications of signals along the route for most of the trip. However, at the last two signals prior to the wreck, Sanchez did not answer his conductor. Those two signals, if functioning properly, would have displayed aspects requiring Sanchez to prepare to enter the siding and stop at the far end. By not stopping, Sanchez put the commuter train in the path of the oncoming freight. As is common practice on commuter trains, the conductor was working in the commuter cars, and Sanchez would have been alone in the locomotive cab. Yesterday also marked the first lawsuit against Metrolink. Attorneys think damages could reach $1 billion. Metrolink and contract operator Veolia Transportation Systems, which employed the train crew, are the most likely targets.
Hytec.....I do realize, the post you made is from a "news" source (that's really an oxymoron) , no doubt AP or what ever. Point being, the public reads this, it's in print, so naturally the words are carved in stone. I and many others here, especially RR employees, could pick many of the statements apart. " I didn't know conductors, back in a passenger train, called the signals. This is just one little misprint. Now, we know what they meant to say, but that's not what they said. Now Joe Sixpack Public thinks the conductor must have seen the signal. Yes!@ I hate the News People also. NTSB: Engineer didn't repeat conductor's signal call PM
