We seemed to have successfully hijacked another thread which started out asking about track laying and turned into a DCC vs DC topic. Risking further hijacking of that thread, I wanted to create a new thread just for that topic of DCC vs DC on a small layout. I'm going to donate the track plan for my current layout which I think will be fun to break down into both DCC and DC in the following areas: How it would be wired. Final cost of supplies (wire, DC cabs/DCC systems, switches, ect.) Time it would take. And finally, how to run it. The goal is to run two trains in opposite directions at the same time. The result is to have specific data to show the advantages and disadvantages of both DC and DCC, to help those on the tip of the scale to make a better informed decision, using a real example. Since I can say up front that this layout is already wired for DCC, I think it safe to say we can avoid any "flame wars" from arising from this one. But just because, I want to ask everyone who contributes to this thread to take special care in writing your reply. If you write any inapropriate negetive comments you will be asked to re-write your reply or simply asked to leave this discussion. Ok, below is the attached track plan. Ready, GO.
Feel free to take the plan into MS Paint or Photoshop and draw in blocks and wires. I'll do my best to update the plan from the text instructions as well.
Hi, Mark, I'd like to add the following constructive comments, all of which you probably know, but it's fun just to share : ==> How it would be wired? JS: Laying a heavy bus line to power the layout in DCC, even though the layout is small, is a great idea, as good short circuit protection in DCC is really important, and the cost difference would be nil on small layout. In either DCC or DC, it's still same good idea to wire small feeders to every piece of track. On layout this size, the cost of the wiring itself is going to be similar. JS: If you go with DC, in order to run two trains in opposite directions, I think you would want to project the small but noticeable costs and time required to configure the blocks appropriately, and then build and wire in a control panel. Because of the control panel, you might actually spend a little more in DC on the wiring and control panel part, than you would if you were in DCC (no control panel / wiring needed). While not hard nor difficult, this is time and energy and cost that you can consider. JS: My personal opinion is that running two trains in opposite directions, that DCC is the great way to go (based on my converting to DCC on my small 4' x 4' layout 1 year ago). Remember that meets between two opposing trains aren't always the only way you'll operate. Some days you may decide you want to have two sections of the train follow each other in the same direction. Or you may decide to put a small MOW train out there that moves along slowly. Or one day you have a 3d yard switcher somewhere. With all of these, very realistic, flexible meets, as well as the multiple crews helping each other with switching, all become easily possible with DCC, without any thought. JS: If you have DC locos that you don't want to convert, it's also an option to put in a DPDT switch between the layout and the power packs/DCC; this would allow you to switch over the entire layout to run on DC or DCC (and just change the locos on the track as appropriate). In that case, the layout in DC mode might be "one big block". That's what I did on my layout, which originally was DC with power-routing turnouts, and now is either DC or DCC depending in which way I connect the layout and the electrical power. ==>Final cost of supplies (wire, DC cabs/DCC systems, switches, ect.) JS: A layout this size is quite happy with a starter DCC system like the NCE PowerCab, Digitrax Zephyr, or equivalent. Street prices for these two on the Internet are in range of $150, plus the cost for an extra cab (another $60-$70 average), for a total of $220 or so, then add cost of decoders. JS: Certainly buying two DC powerpacks (or one with two throttles) would be a less expensive from pure cost standpoint (depending on your DC throttle's quality level, figure somewhere between $30-$60 per DC throttle x 2, for a general average cost of around $60 to $120 total. I think it'd be your personal judgement of the tradeoff between more function (DCC) and less function but lower cost (DC). My opinion is that if you ever decide you want sound locomotives, in general I think sound locos work a lot better, with a lot more function, on DCC. If you plan to be the hobby for a long time, and are of the type like most of us that you buy a fair amount of locos anyway.... then the additional cost for DCC isn't IMHO really a major factor, it's equal to the cost of a few locos. With today's inexpensive DCC starter systems and not-too-expensive drop-in decoders, great time to go with DCC. JS: Either way, DC or DCC will work. ==>Time it would take. JS: Assuming your learning curve on DCC is already done (NCE is really really good) in this area) vs. you already knowing how to do DC wiring and building, I would think the time to setup on layout this size would be range from: a) very similar if you have learning curves, b) to less time for DCC if you're already familiar with DCC. This is because in DC you'd be doing block wiring and control panel, that you'd not need to do in DCC. ==> And finally, how to run it. ==>The goal is to run two trains in opposite directions at the same time. JS: Here is where DCC has the advantage. If your layout was DCC, you'd have all your locos, not just the two train's locos, on the layout, powered up and idling or running, anywhere you want them. One DCC cab runs one train, the other DCC cab runs the other. If you want to meet, you meet anywhere you wish - moving in any direction that you wish; if the two trains want to help each other switch, you just do it; if you want to exchange locos or add helpers or add anything else like a 3d switcher, MOW, additional section..... you just do it. JS: If you have DC, the difference would be that you have to do everything on block boundaries. Basically, you'll be doing a reasonable amount of 'throw the DPDT switch on the control panel' operation. Meets can happen only at places designed to allow that. Helping each other in switching probably takes some thought to design and do at best... not feasible at worst. Once the block boundaries are in, you can't easily change them. Depending on your level of operational flexibility and needs, all of these may not be a problem. On the other hand, if flexibility is a higher priority, then all these may be valid considerations. JS: I hope this helps! Just trying to be helpful. (Thx for the UP 844 pics/videos, btw!)
I just want to add here -- if you were using DC, and switch to DCC with the Digitrax Zephyr, you don't need to add in a cost for the extra cab. It has those spiffy jump ports, so you already have an extra cab by using your existing DC throttle. That is, IF you're going to ditch DC entirely. It supports up to two extra throttles.
Well, with DCC you can get a fully prototypical cornfield meet. With DC that will be very hard to recreate
Well, really, we don't need a second cab in DCC anyways as we can control multiple trains from one throttle. Lets also talk wiring diagrams. I'd like to get a visual in place here. I'm going to take some time later tonight and take my plan and hack it up in Photoshop as best I can to what I think would be the best DC blocking and Control Panel layout. If anyone else would like to take on that challenge, feel free.
We seem to have a tendency here for making things look more complicated than they need to be, rather than a 10 page treatise you can break things down into three simple steps. 1. Buy a Digitrax Zephyr and a UT4 throttle, for your second train, if you just want to set one running and let it run round while you switch the other you could get by without the UT4. I would consider a second throttle at some time though because occasions will arise when you need control of the first train in a hurry. (My preference would be a DT300 but Digitrax in their wisdom don't make them anymore.) 2. Connect two wires from the Zephyr to the mainline. 3. Your layouts running. Time taken: probably less than its taken me to type this. You can add things like short circuit protection and all the other stuff later on as you go, but the above is all you need to do to get running, with DC you need all the extra wiring and a control panel right from the start. DCC gives you the option of getting a small, but reasonably complicated, layout up and running quickly.
Hi-jacked? No such thing. That is when we are discussing model railroading. A discussion/thread goes where it goes. Believe it or not, the basis of Analog DC and DCC are all about wiring and operations. Certain track plans will lend themselves better one to the other. It does make a difference how you lay your track and whether or not you cut in blocks. DCC presents the simplest wiring and track laying technique's...to complete the task. I might add that there is a considerable cost saving when you consider the amount of wire required for Analog DC versus DCC. The other thread Mark mentioned...was getting there but me thinks someone decided to bail? No problem Mark, and it sounds like this one is getting off the ground quite nicely. Besides, we got stuck on the size of the layout and the cost factor for a beginner. I have a video tape, Model Railroader, produced. They took an HO scale layout and put in a single track main (basically a roundy round) with some industrial spurs. They used Bachmann's DCC and demonstrated how two operators could operate trains and switch at the same time. I thought it was perfect for the beginner and a whale of a lot more fun then my first layout. Dream Layout, Make Your Dream Layout, something name like that. I don't believe the size of the layout has anything to do with the choice of DCC or Analog DC. It's your choice and only you have the right to decide how to power it up. On the flip side. If it's only one operator and all you really need is a couple of on and off switches to shut off some spur tracks... then Analog DC would be the least expensive choice. I only wish I made the switch to DCC back when I had a smaller collection and had the financial where withal.
Just thought I'd be polite, and also that a thread with an appropriate title might attract more wisdom. ;-)
If you're currently unemployed or your income is stressed thin like everybody is these days, then the cost of purchasing a UT4 and a Zephyr runs about one to two weeks worth of income, and that money is already well spent elsewhere!! Thus it takes one week to earn the money alone to instantly add DCC to a layout. That is a LOT of time! I did the analysis. I find that this entire layout could be done with nine DPDT switches in all, perhaps even less if we maximize the use of Power-Routing switches. Here's the part I don't think the DCC crowd is apt to remembering; I have labeled track segments A-A' and B-B' to illustrate a commonly glossed over fact; If you have a train running in either of these segments, Train B headed in the opposite direction MUST stop and wait at Passing siding 1, 2, 3, or 4! DCC DOES NOT allow trains to pass THROUGH each other. Now onto the second expense: Power source. The assumption seems to be that the only way you can power a layout is with a transformer device with a price tag of about 35-50 bucks. And yet, if we go through every single DC trainset that has ever been sold, just about, we find inside a powersource that runs between 5 and 10 bucks at shows. Some people can't even give them away, and they have PILES of them. These devices aren't flashy and they only do one thing: them make the train go back and forth!! With a little manual dexterity, you CAN operate rather well on one of these devices. My experience with Model railroaders is that they want to jerk the knob 180 degrees and see the train go from 10 SMPH to 15 SMPH...I'll tell you this much, if I want to go five miles an hour faster in my fairlane and I'm doing 40, I only need to depress the pedal about 1/32 of an inch!! The same finesse principle applies here!!! So here's the tally. 5 bucks for a powerpack. 27 bucks for the DPDT switches [UNLESS power routing switches are used, then you only need 7 and perhaps 6] and who knows how much for 500 feet of 18 gauge wire. It's usually between 5 and 6 dollars. Add it all up and you're at about 1/3rd less then with DCC, and you don't have to do a SINGLE DARN THING INSIDE A SINGLE LOCOMOTIVE!!! Chances are, the wire and the powerpack are already on hand. And while this last option isn't very glamourous, it certainly gets a train running on the layout: hook the DC powerpack right up to the layout, and run one engine. Use power routing switches to hide a couple more switchers on spurs, and park the mainline power when you're switching. Total cost? About 12 bucks. That's less than the cost of a decoder. This is not trivial. And a single unemployed operator could get at least a weeks of operating fun out of that simple setup. A better use of 150 dollars would be a Fasttracks switch template and a soldering iron. A man coud even start selling switches if he became proficient enough with it. I don't think you'll be selling DCC time on your system any time soon...or selling throttles, though you might if you're handy.
Benny, Thanks for the enlightenment. Too often I assume that when we're exploring blocking control, we're going to want the higher quality DC cabs to go with it. I still have a little blue Life-Like controller I brought out when I moved to SF before I picked up my DCC system. Though I hate it to death, and regardless if you turn it 90 degrees or 1, it's either stop or full power, it still runs trains around the track. I'm going to say this lightly.. but for this hypothetical situation, let's assume we're going with the 35-50 dollar DC controllers, which will give us equivalent speed step control to DCC.
Ah, but you see, I could get very precise control out of the little Bachmann bricks. The Lifelike bluebrick has a little mechanical stop at zero that is hard to overcome, and once you do, it automatically advances too far. I generally run my trains around the 50-60 speed on the Bachmann throttle for full mainline speed, and switch around 15-30. It all depends what you are trying to do. Now I did have a Tech 2 or something or another, I believe it was a 1300. I got it in a large lot of stuff, so the cost was negligible - perhaps about ten bucks because of how much I eventually sold off out of that lot. And with so many people going to DCC, there has NEVER been a better time to pick up a cheap DC throttle/cab/etc. It didn't do anything differently, lets put it that way. DC has never been cheaper then it is right now. High glut of motive power on the market, plus the glut of aftermarket throttles, plus the fact that layout wiring can be simplified to two wires regardless of system. The only difference after the two wires is how you run the rest of the layout, and with DC this is a minimal "Add two more wires and a switch" problem. There is a break even point when DCC is a clear advantage. But even in the case of your layout, you could get jsut as much operation out of it with DC as you could with DCC; it might require a litlte more planning for your operators, but I really don't see the difference as you must plan your routes regardless of whether you're on DC or DCC. Otherwise you get really good at shorting and splitting switches!!!
You're no fun at all... For every reason there is against DC, you CAN solve the problem without resorting to DCC if you move back and remember that occupancy rule [no two objects can occupy the same space at the same time]. For example, you have a mainline freight outside town limits while the switcher is at task. So establish your blocks just short of town limits, with enough lead space for the switcher to finish his jobs. There’s plenty of mainline running space on this particular layout to do this. The block edge doesn’t have to be at the switch. And regardless, if the switcher has the right of way, the mainline freight will have to stop anyway. I’ve run on both quality DC powerpacks and crap DC Powerpacks. And I've run on DCC, which is nice especailly in the setting i was in [HUGE layout]. I haven’t noticed the difference yet though. I turn the knob, the trains run. I was 3/4th the way around the club layout before I even realized my DCC Spectrum 4-4-0 has lights. Yes, I have one, and I paid $75 for it. Cha-Ching, yes, I am cheap!! Now It was nice to turn the light on, but otherwise I didn't even notice the light after it was on anyway. I hope that gives you a little perspective on my personal ratio between that which is reality and that which is imaginary. Everybody has a different ratio. There's a good 17.5% of us out here who have to watch our dollars even more then before...that number will be growing again next month. Now here's where I feel a fasttracks switch kit is worth more then a DCC starter kit... The Most expensive part of any large layout is not the rolling stock nor the scenery and not even the Locomotives. The most expensive part is THE SWITCHES! A good quality switch runs around 25-35 dollars right now, which is quite crippling to any hobby budget. Even Atlas switches run 15-20, which is still nothing to blink at! And this part of the layout requires the most amount of upkeep. So if someone wanted to go larger then a small three to four switch layout, they’re stuck using the commercial products that become cost prohibitive after the 4th or 5th switch. Now if you buy a $150 DCC system, your next job is to BUY decoders to install in your locomotives. After you are done with these locomotives, you have realized the maximum utility of your investment. You may now run your equipment, but you're not going to get much more out of them unles syou sprang for expensive multifunction decoders. Now if you had bought a Switch kit, your next job is to BUILD switches. And you can build as many as you need, or even more. The simple act of building switches will improve your soldering skills, something that may very well translate to soldering in resistors, plugs and decoders later on. And the return on such a kit only stops when you decide to stop building switches, so the utility of this investment could go a long ways - if you were good at it, you could swap ponies with your good friends who need switches on their layouts but otherwise are uncomfortable plunking down for such a craft. Trade them switches for locomotives, sell the locomotives, buy a DCC system. Once you buy the DCC starter kit you're looking at a product that starts depreciating the second you open the box. Should this stop you from going DCC? NO! But if you are price concious and on a budget, you should be aware of these inevitabilities. Now compare that to the value of having this particular craft, switchbuilding, which may lead to handlaying and very complex switchwork not possible with commercial switches. In mathematics we call this sort of thing "Order of Operation' and it is really hard to enjoy life when you do things out of order. End result, you aren't taking any money out of the Household Income in pursuit of what is a very self-centered purchase, model trains! I say this only because I know very well that my GF or her Kids will not enjoy any trains I buy regardless of where the money comes from. Indeed, now if I can take my money and spend the afternoon with the kids getting cheeseburgers, that money will go a long ways towards things that actually matter, like spending time with the kids. This relationship thingy has been really Good for re-establishing the value of certain priorities over others, and now in this period of unemployment I have really come to better terms in understanding the value of money! I still enjoy this hobby, even though I don’t have DCC at home. Heck, I no longer have a layout at home either, but that’ another issue altogether! (Now imagine if I HAD bought that DCC system, it’d be out in the storage unit growing dust!! I didn’t get the switch kit either, but I am keeping busy with other projects!)
Perhaps as a DCC user it seems that way to you. I have enjoyed all the points made so far and am learning something.
Fascinating posts and excellent points, Benny. Thanks for taking the time. It seems like a matter of proportion to me: blocking out and wiring a few sidings for DC on a small layout with one or two operators is a small thing, hardly justifying extra expense. Blocking out and wiring many sidings/yards/segments on a basement or club layout with six operators is a bigger thing and justifies the expense. Interesting to hear you say that you've operated both DC and DCC and haven't noticed a difference, since DCC advocates consistently rave about the huge difference they experience. Seems to be an entirely subjective thing--which is as I suspected.
I think cost factors favor DC, even for a controller in the , say, $50 range. If it is possible to go into DC cheaper, then the cost advantage would be even greater. I don't see how DCC can be implemented for anything less than about $200, and it is easily possible to hit $400, when additional decoders are taken into account. In addition to cost, some other factors seem to favor DC, expecially for someone starting out, with a fair amount of learning to do, and especially if decoder installation is part of the picture. Irrespective of anything else, it is important to me to be able to run both legacy locos and new purchases on DC. I don't want to convert all my legacy locos, and I want to be able to run new ones before I install a decoder. So, it seems to me that, especially for newbies, and especially if costs are really important, the place to start is with DC. The real question is whether to add DCC. (I am not willing to run analog locos extensively on DCC, if only because I don't like the way they sound.) So, are the benefits of adding DCC worth the costs? For me, the answer was yes, for several reasons. Consisting works better, because of speed matching. It may not be a biggie, but I really like being able to turn off the headlights of trailing locomotives in a consist. As others have pointed out, switching operations tend to become much simpler with DCC. In my case, it was also really important to be able to operate in a DCC club environment. The club environment also made the DCC learning curve easier for me. Would I have gone to DCC without the issue of club participation? Hard to say.
When I bought my Prodigy Express DCC system about 2 years ago retail was 100 bucks and I got it for 75 at discount. At the time I also picked up 2 DZ123 decoders for 25 bucks (total). So I spent 100 bucks and got the two trains decoder equipped and running on the layout. Now, I realized today the MSRP for those products has jumped, but I expect them to come down again. Now if we look at DC. Realistically, I would want to buy the MRC Tech 4 280 with dual train control which is the cheaper route than two single cabs. Retail after discount is 70 bucks. DPDT switches are in the 3-5 dollar range. In order to get equivilant to DCC operation, we're going to need at least 18 blocks on the layout. One for every siding, stub end, and a few in between the two passing sidings on each side. We'll peg 5 dollars to save for tax so thats 90 additional bucks. We're now looking at 160 for a DC layout that is DCC equivilant. At that price, we can factor in today's cost of the MRC Prodigy Express at 150, plus our two decoders at 25 bucks, we spent 15 dollars more, and we have a layout up and running in 1/9th the time. And that is not even factoring in material for the control panel so we have somewhere for the switches to live. So it looks like DCC is breaking even with cost, and saving hours on time.
Well, Mystere's analysis shows that a system with one DCC controller and two decoders is $15 more expensive than a DC system with two controllers and 18 blocks. The DCC costs would go up with another controller and more decoders, a setup that I think would be closer to a two controller multi block DC system. I don't want to make too big a deal out of this. My main point is that IF you want a really low cost system, DC seems like a better way to go. (BTW the material for my control panel was less than a square foot of masonite, and four screws, all of which was lying around.)
