Being from the Pacific NW I never have seen many coal trains until just recently when I moved to Spokane. Did BN ever mix it's SD70MACs up much with other power such as SD60/M's, SD40-2's or C30-7's?. The reason I ask is I have several of the latter power but only one SD70MAC that I ussaly run with my SD60M's. Kevin D Mumaw [ March 11, 2006, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: Kevin D Mumaw ]
Kevin, I'm sure there is someone else he more knowledgeable than me on this matter but I was always under the impression that the sd70mac kind of replaced a lot of the sd40-2's that were pulling coal. I'm not saying they totally disappeared from pulling coal but I get the feeling you would more than likely see more sd60/m's with a sd70mac than the sd70mac and an sd40-2 in a consist. if I'm worng someone please correct me. I am basing my knowledge on what little coal passes through Washington. I do remember Long, long, long coal trains in south dakota when I visited back in 93 or so. All I saw then was Black and Green BN Coal Porters with daqrk green SD40-2's. Now I only wish I could of seen BN RLM 7890 and 7149 during testing pulling coal.
Kevin, BN didn't mix up the MACs with other older power much. Prolly the AC-verus-DC loco thing was frowned on. I have heard of mixed freight AC/DC consists with ACeez in the lead--the ACeez were happily plugging along at 8-11MPH, and the DC units, generally SD40-2's, had their ammeters in the red, pulling as hard as they could, to keep up with the AC's. In heavy-duty, heavy-haul service, this could cause burned traction motors on the DC units. I have seen SD40's with 60's, but generally coal trains get all AC or DC power. Now, the paint schemes, that's quite another story! Even pooled power like KCS units in coal runthru service--were generally always AC's. Sometimes GE Dash-9's were seen in coal service. I have a dvd on Crawford Hill, where Dash9's are in coal service. On Crawford, manned helpers were sets of SD60M's. So, there is one possibility for mixed coal power AC and DC style.
Hemi has it right. While it wasn't impossible to see a mix, I don't think I can say that I've seen it more than a handful of times out of probably a thousand BNSF coal trains I've seen over the years. Examples: 1. Dash 9's. Usually they were DPU, not directly in the set of AC units, but it did happen once or twice. (not to be confused with the AC4400's, which were/are mixed in with the SD70MAC's and new GE AC's) 2. SD40-2's. The only time I saw Dash 2's with an AC was as a manned helper. I did see some SD40-2's on UP trains while in the PRB and I think UP also used Dash 9's and Dash 8's commonly early on. 3. SD60's. Again, these were manned helpers connected to AC's, not MU'ed in the consist. 4. SD75's. These are the only units I've seen besides other AC's and Dash 9's that have been in a consist with the AC units. I'm sure there are tons of exceptions to my info, but like I said...I've seen a LOT of coal trains over the years. Since 1995, about 95% or more BNSF trains have been solid SD70MAC's with the GE AC's joining the fun later on. (3 in 1999, and a hundreds since 2003)
My experience at the power plant I worked at was the same. The majority of the time they are AC units. Unlike Doug, I haven't seen many Dash 9s in the consist. But I did one night (in the middle of the night) find a Santa Fe Dash 8 as the second unit behind a SD70MAC. The other end of the train had a 70MAC on it.
A few months ago I saw an empty coal train that was returning over Stevens Pass. It actually stopped here in town at the Safeway store for a bite to eat, so I hopped down to the store to check out the power. It was a mix of 70MAC and SD75s. There were 5 units total.
OK Dan, I have looked on a map and have no idea where Indian Grave Springs is in our great state, I have been all over this state with my dad and am clueless. So where is Indian Grave Springs? Kevin
One other thing to remember ( and this holds true today as well) when BN got short on power, anything goes (or so it seemed). And the BN was short on power when the SD70MAC's came out. Adam
Thanks for the imformation guys, I guess I will stick my SD60M's with my C30-7s and run SD70MAC's by them selfs. Kevin D Mumaw
Horsepower, fuel consumption and locomotive protection systems had to do with how locomotive consists were built. 3 SD 70 MACs had the same amount of hp that 4 SD 40-2s. Running three 710 prime movers saved quite a bit of fuel compared to four 645 prime movers. When the locomotive make-up was changed, it was easier to decide which locomotive(s) to remove if they were all the same. (AC versus older DC). When an SD 40-2 shuts down for system problems, most of the time, the whole locomotive is lost. Not so with the MAC and newer DC models. Now, AC and DC are mixed quite frequently. Because the have many of the same engine protection systems and they are using the same prime movers.The same holds true for a GE. AC still has the advantage in traction over DC, but because of the near equal amount of hp generated from either unit, and fuel usage, AC and DC are quite commonly configured today.
Just to clearify, ost of you (besides doofus) seem to be referring to BNSF practice. Since BN did not own any Dash-9s (I don't think) The question is, what did they do prior to 96. It probably also depends on the year you model. If you're modelling the time just as the MACs were being intorduced, you would probably see all AC together which the 60MACs sprinkled in, but you'd probably also see all DC consists as BN didn't have enough MACs to satisfy their power needs.
BN never owned Dash-9's. BN SD70MACs tended to be run in dedicated, un-mixed sets. In manned helper ops, like in PRB on a couple of their steeper hills, and on Crawford Hill, SD60M's and Deuces provided a shove. BN only had 4 SD60MACs, 100% of the total ever built. I don't think they would have been split up from their sister units--Doofus? BN had 311 MACs come M-day, I think they had enough to keep ops from suffering--maybe not as many as they wanted, to send older units off the roster. Pre-96, I think you'd see lots of SD70MAC-powered coalies, and some SD40-2/C30-7 combos.
The 95 Roster book shows a SD60Mac MU with a pair of ATSF SD40-2s in Palmer Lake helper svc. Also a shot of SF SD40-2 & SD70Mac on a bare table train leaving Hobart Yard.
The SD 60 MACs were prototypes for the SD 70 MACs. They got used and abused!!!! Most of their systems were improved upon and installed into the newer SD 70 MACs by the time they were introduced. The SD 60 MACs did get split up quite frequently after all of the experimentation, but they suffered many component failures because of the abuse they received during the initial test phase of AC traction. Fuel consumption and short time ratings were the reasons for keeping locomotive consists "pure". Older DC locomotives have what are called "short time ratings". If the current being drawn by the traction motors from the main generator became excessive, the engineer can only operate the locomotive consist for a certain amount of time before having to stop and let the traction motors and main generator cool down. The engineer has to monitor these "short time ratings" and make adjustments accordingly. MACs don't have short time ratings. They will automatically reduce tractive effort if things begin heating up. However this automatic load reduction occurs at a much higher stress level. In a mixed AC/DC consist, the engineer running from a MAC would have no idea if there were problems with trailing DC units until it was too late. This was because the MAC had a different way of gauging the load and tractive effort. So to avoid these problems, the BN tried very hard not to mix AC and DC units. It did occur rarely, but if it did, extra DC power was added to the consist so the short time ratings of the DC units would not become a limiting factor. Other times, the mixed locomotive consist was on a train where tonnage and grade were not a factor in locomotive consist makeup, or the DC units were taken "offline" (not in operation, just being towed). [ April 07, 2006, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: doofus ]
Well I saw two BNSF coal trains today that were mixed AC and DC poer, one of them had 2 SD70MAC's, 1 Oakway SD60, and a MRL F45, the other one was a SD70MAC, SD75M, Oakway SD60, and a B40??. Anyways both were loaded and heading west bound through Spokane. Kevin D Mumaw
An F45 in coal service?? Sick! Youget a pic? That would have been a neat sight to see. Did you catch the number?
No pic, sorry, I was sitting in the cab of GP39 2741 waiting to get on the main, as for the number I really want to say 391, but that is alomst a guess, that could be another MRL I have seen drifting around. It was in very clean and fresh looking paint though. Kevin
From the "There's A Prototype For Everything" Department: Believe it or not, this IS a coal train- BN GP38-2 2314 (an ex-Frisco engine) is rolling east over US66 between Baxter Springs and Riverton, KS enroute to the Empire District Electric Co-Op power plant at Riverton. This trackage is part of an old Frisco branch from Baxter Jct. to Joplin- it's out of service at the time of this pic from Riverton east to Joplin. I shot this in the late 1980s. This emulates the mini-unit trains Frisco ran between a mine at Garland, KS and an EDEC power plat at Aurora, MO,using two GP38-2s and 31 100-ton hoppers. Today, the plant is out of service, and the branch is history.
Not exactly BN but here are some coal train consists for today. BN 9217 BNSF 9459 BNSF 8229 EMD 9016 BNSF 9591 That one is SD60M-SD70MAC-SD75-SD60-SD70MAC BNSF 5694 BNSF 8300 BNSF 9779 C44AC-SD75-SD70MAC BNSF 9831 BN 9661 BNSF 8906 All MACs BNSF 9263 BNSF 9207 BNSF 8269 SD60M-SD60M-SD75 BNSF 4837 BNSF 9294 BNSF 8274 C44DC-SD60M-SD75 EMD 9071 EMD 9005 EMD 9000 All SD60 BNSF 5884 BNSF 9466 BNSF 5465 EMD 9075 EMD 9035 EMD 9091 Within the first year (1994) BN was running mixed MAC SD60 SD40-2 coal consists. Also I've seen many freights with SD70MACs and just about anything else. Can't say I've ever seen a SD70MAC with a GE -7 though?? But I am sure it must have occurred as an oddity. MACs on locals is fairly common and I've seen them used as a lone switch engine in small yards.
