Climax restoration

Stephane Savard Sep 1, 2024

  1. Stephane Savard

    Stephane Savard TrainBoard Member

    832
    2,690
    40
    Back at the end of June I had a big surprise when someone sent me a box full of old HO stuff, many of which I may not even have been born when they were first produced! Wood kit of a logging camp, water tower, a caboose kit, some wooden tunnel portals, etc. Alone these will be super fun to build and make my own, even if they are a bit daunting as most are craftsman kits (a box of lumber and a plan)! However there was something else hidden in the box, and it floored me when I carefully unwrapped it...

    IMG_20240901_144703895.JPG

    IMG_20240901_144616256.JPG

    IMG_20240901_144828445.JPG

    IMG_20240901_144901796.JPG

    This little model is older than I am (and well it looks it too :D), but I am well motivated in trying to restore it back to working condition.

    I have not tried to run it, nor put any power to it, not in this state. However I don't think it looks as bad as the photos might indicate. I think most of this is dirt and dust, and really just needs to be disassembled and given a good cleaning. It was very well packaged, but I think the box was thrown around a bit by both USPS and Canada Post, meaning some parts are a little bent (mostly the pilots). Still, that should be fairly easy to fix.

    Normally, I think this would have scared me a lot, attempting such a restoration, but just having finished building the MDC Shay, it's interesting to see that the mechanism of the Climax is very very similar. The motor connects to a gear box, which in turns drives the wheels in the trucks via a dogbone or similar. The rods on the side seem to just be driven by the same gearbox and are not connected to the wheels in any way, making things simpler.

    Anyway, again I want to thank the person that sent me the box of HO stuff, you've made this guy real happy (while his wife a little less, having had to endure so many Climax facts as I learned more about this type of geared locomotive!) :ROFLMAO:

    Here's one interesting tidbit - two Climaxes did run here in Quebec, more specifically in the Gaspé region sometime between 1915 and 1929 as the two locomotives of the Magdalen River Valley Railroad!
     
    f2shooter, Tad, Numbers and 4 others like this.
  2. Mike VE2TRV

    Mike VE2TRV TrainBoard Member

    5,895
    17,331
    103
    I agree that Step 1 has to be a tear-down and cleaning.

    It looks like it went through a mudslide. Goodness knows where the dirt ended up.:eek:
     
    Stephane Savard and BNSF FAN like this.
  3. BNSF FAN

    BNSF FAN TrainBoard Supporter

    11,206
    39,002
    163
    Going to be interesting to see how this one turns out it's a really neat little engine.
     
    Stephane Savard and Mike VE2TRV like this.
  4. Stephane Savard

    Stephane Savard TrainBoard Member

    832
    2,690
    40
    I don't know much about how this model was stored over the years except what it's owner told me about it. He did mention he got it used in the late 60s and never even ran it. So this has not seen power in well, lets say at least 55 years (and I'm 47!) :eek:

    Possibly just stored on a shelf in a garage for decades? No idea, but well, it was a gift, and if I come across it's mouth I won't go looking into it :D I'm happy I got it at all, and in any condition!

    It will be, if I can get it to turn out at all :unsure:

    I started taking it apart, and well, it immediately became apparent how much this might not be like the MDC Shay as it turns out. Okay, some pictures...

    IMG_20240903_184701603_HDR.JPG

    IMG_20240903_184706768_HDR.JPG

    So first was to locate how to get the top off the bottom. Out in back there are two screws (one missing) holding down the bunker, located right behind the truck. Simple enough, but I was a bit mystified regarding how the boiler was held down. Couldn't see any screw heads on the bottom front, even under the truck. Those screws on the truck are for releasing the wheel sets (holds the H-shaped plate in place, which can then theoretically slide out either end of the truck). I replaced the screw on the front truck and I realized it wasn't going to remove the truck.

    No, turns out the long bolt is located inside the smokestack!

    IMG_20240903_185647031_HDR.JPG

    Theres the monster of a motor which much corrosion, I didn't try to put power to it, but turning by hand, it's not spinning great. The wires just came apart, I don't even know where the black end of that loose wire should be connecting to. I will most likely re-motor this with a can motor, same one I used in the Shay (if I get that far).

    I did take the motor out, and well, that black tubing universal is mummified. I can replace it with surgical tubing however, and may need to. The shaft on the gear box is large, made for some tubing, and I don't know if I'll be able to remove it to attach a standard NWSL dogbone and cup universal.

    Though I've hit the first piece of bad news. Turning the shaft on the gearbox.... the universals at the other end do not turn :unsure: So something is wrong inside the gearbox. Maybe it's an easy fix, I won't know until I see if I can open the gearbox (or if I can open the gearbox). I looked online at different PFM Climaxes and and it's weird, it's the first I see it enclosed like that, most appear to be different design.

    Next, inside the "shell"...

    IMG_20240903_185726528_HDR.JPG

    The bulb wires look like they were made of cloth :D Well, I'm going to replace those with LEDs in any case. I didn't spend much time here. The lump of lead at the top of the picture goes inside the boiler. Anyway, not worried about the top, that's just cosmetic stuff. Bent pilot, bent handrails, wires, missing step ladder, etc, that's the real easy stuff, and only needs a bit of time and effort to make it look good again. What I worry about is the mechanical side of things.

    Which segues into the front truck...

    IMG_20240903_191136144.JPG

    On removing the motor, I removed the wire to th truck. Hmmm. Well, it used a weird little brass screw, a fiber washer, and a plastic (?) insulator. The paper or fiber washer is dead, heh, that's got to be replaced. If I can't find the right size, I'll use the laser cutter to get me one out of card stock. But there's a weird thing on the screw. Is that a spring? Or maybe it was a spring at one time. Maybe I can find something similar as replacement.

    The good news is that even in such a state, the truck gears do work and turning the universal spins the wheels. But I didn't spend too much time turning anything, not without a deep clean first.

    Anyway, getting called to help at at dinner, so that's it for now!
     

    Attached Files:

    BNSF FAN, Numbers and Mike VE2TRV like this.
  5. Mike VE2TRV

    Mike VE2TRV TrainBoard Member

    5,895
    17,331
    103
    Yikes!:eek:

    The whole kit and kaboodle will need a thorough cleaning to get all that dirt out of there.

    That's the best choice. That motor is virtually dead. The bearings are probably shot, gummed up six ways from Sunday. And the wiring seems to be rotted too. Start a new electrical system from scratch, motor, wiring, the works.

    You might get that gearbox cover off by removing at least one screw from the top. In the bottom view I see a screw tip sticking out of the frame and it seems to hold down that angled cover plate. I suspect that the bushings/bearings coming out of that gearbox are clogged and gummed with dirt and grease that has dried out over the years.

    You seem to be eager for a challenge, so I believe you can bring this old brass beast back to life.(y)
     
    BNSF FAN likes this.
  6. Stephane Savard

    Stephane Savard TrainBoard Member

    832
    2,690
    40
    Thanks Mike for the vote of confidence, my own took a bit of a dive today after opening this up, but I'm still up for the challenge :D

    I didn't look too much at the gearbox yet. I've only just started taking it apart, taking pictures and carefully setting things aside in a parts box. I just haven't really looked yet how to open the gearbox.

    As for the motor, when I lifted it, the bottom commutator (that's the part with the graphite block right?) just fell loose. I think it was just held in place by the floor of the loco. The can motor I know works real well, so it's just easier to go that route.

    Now, the dirt. I think it'll come right off. There was an old Mantua caboose in the box and it had much the same dusty appearance. Dawn dish soap and a good scrubbing got it right clean.
     
    BNSF FAN, Mike VE2TRV and Numbers like this.
  7. Stephane Savard

    Stephane Savard TrainBoard Member

    832
    2,690
    40
    Lots of ups and downs in this project, sorta like a good, bad, bad, good, bad, good news sorta day :D

    I'm still not cleaning anything, for now I'm still slowly taking it apart and seeing what works and what doesn't.

    IMG_20240904_182207450.JPG

    So yes, I got the gearbox out of the frame. The trouble here was that I needed to take out the black cylinders that attach to the running gear. On each black piece at the bottom of the picture was a set screw, easy to remove, but the black piece is stuck fast to the shaft on the right side. I was able only able to remove the left side. Finally, I figured out that I can pop off the running gear and that got the gearbox untangled.

    The inside of the gearbox is basically encased in sludge. And I can't open it up. You can see on the gearbox where I removed a screw (just beside the L-bracket) and that normally would allow the entire plate to come off. But the universals are soldered onto the shaft and I'm not confident enough with the soldering iron to not melt the plastic insert of the universal. If I don't unsolder it, I can't remove the plate. So that's some of the bad news.

    The good news is that if I spin the drive shaft (on the other side of the gearbox), I can see the universals spin too. And the universals appear to be in good condition. I think I'm just going to degrease the inside through the available holes and clean it as well as I can. I can then reassemble the shaft for the running gear and see if I can get everything spinning freely.

    IMG_20240904_182444720.JPG

    The running gear is ok on the other side. By this I mean I can push the rod in and out and it's smooth enough (through the dirt). On this side it's banged up a bit, and the bit that attaches to the gearbox spinny black thing (I keep saying black cylinder thing, etc. What's the name of that thing? Flywheel!! Google rescued me there :ROFLMAO:). Okay, so the end of the smaller rod that the attaches to the flywheel is seized (looks kinda greenish in the picture). Gonna need a good soak.

    Here's a top view of what might be causing the running gear on the left to stick, it's bent...

    IMG_20240904_182546507.JPG

    The thing is, I have no idea how to take apart the running gear. It might be that the pins are friction fit, but I'm not 100% on that. I fear if I take it apart it might be apart for good. So I think I'll clean it up best I can with the gear in place and attempt to bend it back in place. However, if someone knows for sure that I can take it apart, or how I can do so safely, let me know. Certainly would be easier for repainting later on.

    As for the running gear and the cylinders, there are two screws holding that assembly to the frame (we can see the ends of these protruding on the underside). But I don't know that I can remove it - it looks like the bracket may have been epoxied to the frame.
     
    BNSF FAN and Mike VE2TRV like this.
  8. Stephane Savard

    Stephane Savard TrainBoard Member

    832
    2,690
    40
    Aha, yes, epoxied in place!

    IMG_20240904_191157876.JPG

    Was probably epoxied in place because of a broken solder joint. Took very little prying to get that joint to give. It should be relatively easy to clean that up and properly join them back together.

    I did not take a photo, but I ripped out the headlight wiring and removed the grain of wheat lightbulb from the front headlamp. The rear one will need a soldering iron to melt some solder before it will come out. I don't know if it was done on purpose, but the front headlight was wired to the boiler. Or rather, yea I know that's on purpose, the rear truck electrifies the whole frame, but the funny part is that one wire of the headlight was wired to the blob of solder holding the generator casting to the boiler :ROFLMAO:

    Enough for today, it's going to be tiny steps like this. Would be easier if retired!
     
    BNSF FAN and Mike VE2TRV like this.
  9. Stephane Savard

    Stephane Savard TrainBoard Member

    832
    2,690
    40
    And cleaning is begun!

    IMG_20240907_151648592.JPG

    I started with the frame - I just basically soaked it in a tub of 91% alcohol and used a Dremel with various shaped nylon brushes to scrub everything down. It does a really great job of removing the paint which is mostly dissolved by the alcohol. I also used a brass brush on the Dremel for some of the more stubborn bits of paint.

    IMG_20240907_151421100.JPG

    Same with the trucks, Nylon brushes got them right clean! There is still some tarnishing on the brass, but again, 55 years old. I'll not make this look brand new however much I scrub. I'll be giving this a new coat of paint in any case (well, the outside frames at least) so it'll be fine.

    The only issue I have with the trucks is that I cannot take the wheels out of the side frames - the axles are too deep into the side frames and can't bend them out. Will make painting the sides quite the adventure, but I think I can do it with some cardboard masks.

    But I do have another tricky bit I need to solve on the trucks....

    IMG_20240907_151552857.JPG

    Here's a closeup, again there's that tarnishing, which on the truck itself won't be a problem, but the wheels is quite another. I need to polish them to a shine, but it's quite tricky with the wheels stuck in the side frames. I think I'll attach a motor to the drive shaft, spin it fast, and use some 1000 to 3000 grit wet sandpaper to polish the wheels.

    Aside from that, now that the gears are clean, they look to be in great shape and spin fairly well.

    IMG_20240907_154105543.JPG

    The shell and boiler are still soaking in the alcohol, this time a new bath, the first bath is absolutely filthy with the black paint. Cleaning the boiler is a bit more tricky with the piping and details, but so far it's going very well. using a combination of different brushes (Nylon brushes on the dremel, tooth brushes and stiff paint brushes). If I can't get 100% of the paint on that's fine.
     
    Mike VE2TRV and BNSF FAN like this.
  10. Stephane Savard

    Stephane Savard TrainBoard Member

    832
    2,690
    40
    Okay, so cleanup is going well, but I do have a really big problem that's coming up....

    IMG_20240907_150717294.JPG

    First problem, is that the inside of the gearbox is absolutely caked in old grease, and I can't get it out. I tried using a large syringe and squirting in and out degreaser (mean green) and 91% alcohol right inside, but even after that, from the side holes I can still see large flakes of the stuff that I can fleck off with the needle-nose tweezers.

    So, I carefully removed one dogbone and tried to desolder the other end from the axle (you can see the dogbone end on the gearbox, with the fat glob on solder holding it in place. Problem is my soldering iron is great for electronics, but useless here!! I tried to remove the glob of solder holding the bracket on the frame and.... the soldering iron, even at 400 degrees doesn't even melt the solder a tiny bit. The whole frame is a heat sink.

    I have some repairs to do here and there on the frame and shell, and I don't have the tools for it. I don't even know what I need. So I'm asking you all, how do I solder on a brass model? what equipment do I need?

    (edit: right, I just figured out why the running gear plates had been epoxied in place, whoever tried to repair was probably in the same boat as I with inadequate soldering iron!)
     
    Mike VE2TRV and BNSF FAN like this.
  11. drbnc

    drbnc TrainBoard Member

    59
    77
    11
    Try some lighter fluid or auto brake cleaner to see it that gets it any cleaner. And a micro torch may be your best bet for pinpoint soldering.
     
  12. Stephane Savard

    Stephane Savard TrainBoard Member

    832
    2,690
    40
    Would a soldering gun help with working on a brass locomotive? I saw a YouTube video where they used that to work on brass models. But if so, what wattage?

    Going to look at micro torches as well, see what's available.
     
    BNSF FAN likes this.
  13. Mike VE2TRV

    Mike VE2TRV TrainBoard Member

    5,895
    17,331
    103
    I get that problem too with some of the boards we make at my workplace. Some have one or more copper planes in the internal layers (ground, power, etc.) and they suck the heat out of my iron like Dracula at a blood bank.

    The solution is more heat, in your case, in the form of a micro torch, as @drbnc suggested.

    Edit: a soldering gun, with lots of wattage, would do the trick.
     
    Stephane Savard and BNSF FAN like this.
  14. drbnc

    drbnc TrainBoard Member

    59
    77
    11
    A gun would work, but the things are unwieldy an still need more time to spread heat than a torch. Remember, brass locos are like jewelry. You spread that heat out too much with a gun and other parts may fall off.
     
    Stephane Savard and BNSF FAN like this.
  15. Stephane Savard

    Stephane Savard TrainBoard Member

    832
    2,690
    40
    BNSF FAN likes this.
  16. Mike VE2TRV

    Mike VE2TRV TrainBoard Member

    5,895
    17,331
    103
    Oooooo... The inner Inspector Gadget in me wants this!:)

    The accessories are what lights my fire. I could even solder (electrical/electronic) in a power outage, or far from an electrical outlet. Me likey...

    I searched and in Canada (and Québec), they're available locally at any Home Depot. My local one has seven in stock.

    I'm not too hot on that one (pun intended). My first micro torch was one of those and they tend to break after a while.:cautious:
     
    Stephane Savard and BNSF FAN like this.
  17. Stephane Savard

    Stephane Savard TrainBoard Member

    832
    2,690
    40
    I used to have a mini torch with all those attachments, same brand, iroda. It broke down and only makes an anemic flame now. After reading more about the second one I posted, I'll pass on it.

    There's also a Weller micro torch at Canadian Home Depot, https://www.homedepot.ca/product/weller-mini-butane-torch/1001649530. Less than half the price of the go go gadget version :D I just bought a brand new electric car last week (1:1 scale :ROFLMAO:) I didn't want to be spending more on tools right now.

    I think I'll go there this morning and make a choice after I see them.
     
    Mike VE2TRV and BNSF FAN like this.
  18. Stephane Savard

    Stephane Savard TrainBoard Member

    832
    2,690
    40
    Bought the bernzomatic at Home Depot, the go-go gadget one. It did the trick, I got the bracket off the frame, and opened the gearbox. Mangled the end of the universal, but I'm fairly confident I can get it back to shape. Oh, and accidentally desoldered the angle bracket on the gearbox for good measure (yeah, the "micro" "précision" flame is rather big, even at lowest setting). But I got that soldered back up, no harm done

    Will likely return the torch and buy another brand, annoying that I have to trigger up to 4-5 times for the flame to start, especially since I need to reset the child lick each time. For the price the starter should work mostly on the first try.
     
    Mike VE2TRV and BNSF FAN like this.
  19. Mike VE2TRV

    Mike VE2TRV TrainBoard Member

    5,895
    17,331
    103
    I bought it too, earlier today. Not bad, but it has its quirks. The soldering attachment doesn't seem to work very well, as the main body of the attachment (which also serves as a heat gun) tends to quench the flame. Maybe there's a learning curve to straighten out somewhere. Didn't have the trigger problem, though.

    I still have my micro torch always on me in my tool belt (even Batman is jealous;)), for quick jobs like small heat shrink tubing or lighting birthday cake candles.

    Keeping the the new one at home. With the flame only, on low, it melts SAC 305 solder instantly.
     
    BNSF FAN and Stephane Savard like this.
  20. Stephane Savard

    Stephane Savard TrainBoard Member

    832
    2,690
    40
    Heh, didn't even try the soldering attachment, not interested in it. The trigger never ignites on the first try, usually does on the second, but sometimes takes more. Unless it's already hot, then works first try. I mean it works, but for the price I would rather it work better.

    Your mention of sac305 reminds me of a question - I want to buy some solder paste, any recommendation? I was thinking of just getting some inexpensive 63/37 tin/lead, no clean (chipquik brand I think, off Amazon), but not an expert, not sure if there's a better choice.

    For heat shrink tubing I have a heat "stick" (not gun shaped :D) that came with a pack of various size tubing. Cheaply made but works super well without being able to melt plastic or burn the tubing.
     
    BNSF FAN and Mike VE2TRV like this.

Share This Page