14 MAY 2009 Dave. Until I get back up and operating with either my current processor - or go and purchase a new one, my e-mail problems will probably continue. Those SAL E-7's need to be operated and coupled onto some long Silver Meteor or Silver Star passenger cars. Perhaps someone in the Charleston area has a layout where you could obtain a PASS and check them out. Buddy. Did you get the fax? The project that the researcher/author is working on should be a very interesting book. Larry @ SCRS
Larry - Well, I hope it's very soon that you're back posting. The information and insight that you've given in your postings on the steam and passenger era locally are priceless to me. It was always a "downer" to me that I missed out on so much of that by just a few years, and here you come to full in those gaps. Nope, those E-7's (unless I do get a pass somewhere) are just going to be photo fodder. Intention right now is to use the layout as a diorama and add some of my few TTX and auto-rack cars a la TT-23. In fact, I do already have the power for the "Silvers," the last issue of "Lines South" (the quarterly publication of the ACL/SAL HS) confirmed what I suspected - preferred power for the "Silver Meteor" and "Star" were the E-4/6's. It seems that ther E-4's, 6's, and possibly the early 7's - were geared for 117 mph. The later models for 98 mph. And, thanks to another photo in the same publication, I know that at least once an E-8 was on TT-23. Unfortunately, when the E-8's were available in the mint green, I didn't get any. So, again - hurry back. And, hope you don't think I'm hi-jacking your thread, but if any of you out there reading this thread can add to this in reference to SC railroading - Buddy Hill; how about that railroading in the "vegetable patch?"
Larry - I did receive the fax. Thank you very much! It confirmed my previous suspicions regarding the SAL-Sou-ACL operations. David - Speaking of the ACL vegetable territory a.ka. "The Cabbage Patch" - the group's previous exchanges about the operations in and around Charleston prodded me to finally wrap up the research phase and start writing the ACL Yonges Island Branch article for LinesSouth. Hoping to have it finished by the first of the year. The article will discuss the development of the truck farming industry in southern Charleston County, the building of the ACL Yonges Island branch and spur network, the physical plant (tracks, structures, etc.), rail operations during the produce rush (locomotive classes and assignments, pusher ops, etc.), a traffic summary with car loadings for given locations and years, and finally a discussion of the abandonment of the branch line. If the editors will give me the space I hope to combine railroad valuation maps showing track arrangements with the precious few photographs known to exist. The article will also include a brief discussion on the ACL Croghan Branch (not much in the way of photos) as well as revisiting the SAL EC-Line (car loadings for selected produce sheds). I was hoping to include a sidebar with the article discussing photographs of a train wreck at Ravenel SC. Unfortunately, I can only narrow the time of the wreck to sometime between 1905 and 1917. Thats approximately 4,383 newspapers to review.....unless I get lucky early into the search, I will be spending a lot of evenings and weekends in the library. Wish me luck. Buddy
Buddy - I do wish you luck, your search goes back almost a hundred years - I can't even find info on an SAL wreck at Hollywood back in the 60's, less than 50 years. Ditto, SAL's detour of at least part of it's "Silver" fleet through Charleston in 1964. I, myself sat at the 10th Ave. crossing west of the station and watched 3 E-units pull 18 cars southbound towards Savannah. Same with an SAL Q-3 painted in their pullman/olive green color with lots of gold lining. The only time I ever saw it was at about age 7 or 8 behind Whaley's Gulf station when it was located on the north side of a two-lane Hwy. 17 - it's like it never existed, but my own eyes told me otherwise. Someone, somewhere is probably sitting on a couple of long tons of photos from the Yonges Island/Croghans branch lines, structures, and equipment. Trouble is trying to find them. There are a lot of gaps in the railroad history of this area, let's hope that this thread will help full some of them.
Piggy Back Service In/Through Charleston While I'm definitely familiar with Seaboards' through piggy back service (TT-23), and that Pigs were definitely included in other SAL manifests, that ACL handled a lot in their #109, and occasionally behind some secondary pasenger trains, does anyone have any information on Southerns' piggy back service to Charleston? To be truthful, I don't really recall any piggy back ramps or their location - except for Southern. My memory is almost clear that SOU had a ramp at their 7-Mile yard. But a close search of all the Southern photos in this area that I have available, fails to show a single rack or even TTX flat on a single Southern train during the 1960's. Does anyone have information on ACL/SAL/SOU piggy back service to Charleston?
Dave, In the late 1960s, the ACL piggyback ramp was located adjacent to the yard office at Bennett Yard. Buddy
Buddy - Thanks for the information on the ACL. Normally I didn't spend much time around yards, much less do a lot of photography at such locations. However, in my attempts to follow up I did finally find the photos that I knew I had taken of the CN&L purple & silver GP-7's at Bennett. Apparently when I was in a yard, the engines took most (all?) of my photographic attention. One of the photos taken at Cooper yard shows loaded piggy back cars being pushed around by the yard's GP-7, but I never did pentrate too far into Cooper.
27 MAY 2009 Dave and Buddy. Pull up MapQuest (or some other good map program) and get a map of Charleston, then move to the old SY Tower area. Enlarge the streets, then select arial view. Both the CSX and NS Pig tracks are near. I have some pictures of the Pig track location at the NS yard. I took them a number of years back when 4501 was backing an excursion train on to the Pig track. My computer processor is still down. When it is finally well, I will post them. Larry @SCRS
Larry - Thanks for the info. I tried MapQuest but could not get a very good close up on the SY tower area. I do know that there is a good map program that gets down to tree level but can't remember what it is. I'll have to do some searching. Actually, rather than getting info on the locations of the ramps, I was more interested in what industries in the Charleston area made use of piggy back service. I am under the impression that most industries in this area used car load service, very few, if any - using piggy back. And, another good question, even though Larry covered it in one of his earlier posts, and that is LCL service. I do/did know where all the freight houses were, but does anyone have any stories to share on this service that's been gone for half a century now? And what about Railway Express service? This too is another service that has been gone for almost half a century.
REA-different subject When I was young, my dad would take me to old North Station just to see the ACL traffic. I have some memories of it. When I saw the mention of REA, I recall that it was just south of the station I belive. I also recall that there was a meat processing plant close to the station, perhaps across the rail. No big deal here, just trying to recall things.
Falcon468 - Yes, rail south and across the mainline if I remember correctly. I don't recall a meat packing plant, but have to admit my last time up there in daylight was probably 1964-1965. I know that with the advent of Amtrak and reduction in passenger service it became a place not to be after dark. Although at least til the mid 60's, the ACL would spot REX express cars with bagged mail on the REX siding and the main post office downtown would send a truck and two men to transfer the mail downtown. I also know (remember) that an REX (think at that time REA) truck would meet Seaboard's #25 (the north-bound "Boll Weevil") at Grove St. station. I just don't remember about #26. Would think that Southern also handled mail and express on it's "Carolina Special" but I've never run across anybody who knew about that. Guess I should have talked to some of Southern's "old heads" when I had the chance.
INFORMATION FOR BUDDY HILL Buddy - Ran across one of your archived pieces from the old ACL/SAL HS concerning the ACL crossing of the Seaboard's EC line just south of DuPont. Several times I watched the ACL units cross that main without even slowing down. Of course they were probably moving at about 10 - 15 mph. The Seaboard had their typical three-light signal on the north side of the crossing, but I do not remember a light on the south side. The ACL had a typical semaphore on the Croghan's side (right next to my parent's house) but I do not believe it ever operated. If there was another signal on the Johns Island side, I was not aware of it. For the 7 or 8 years that I and my buddies haunted that area, there was never a gate or sign of one. My thought then as now was that the SAL on installing CTC in this area (~1950), had an electrical circuit tied into the ACL line. A 1963 TT shows "Dupont M.P. 426.4 A.C.L., Normal clear for S.A.L." I'm certain that there was no control/battery box between the crossing and Arlington Dr. If you found other information on this crossing, please advise. Dave
Dave - Thanks for the additional information regarding Dupont Crossing. Those are exactly the type of often ignored details that I've been seeking. The signaling of the numerous ACL and SAL crossings are somewhat of a mystery - especially 40 plus years removed. The fact that the ACL Croghan Branch was equipped with a semaphore is very interesting. I never had the opportunity to observe Dupont Crossing or any of the ACL-SAL Meggett Branch crossings up close. I do vaguely remember a searchlight signal on the ACL Meggett Branch - it was fairly close to the highway crossing in Hollywood SC which was about a mile from the actual ACL-SAL crossing. Wondering if that was possibly an approach signal? I do not recall ever seeing its counterpart on the Meggett side of the ACL-SAL crossing. As to the type and appearance of the ACL signals (if any) at the crossing I have no clue. I can remember the SAL signals protecting the crossing. The Hollywood Spur crossed the SAL line to the west of Meggett three more times - each reportedly interlocked - the method of signaling (searchlight signals, semaphores, etc.) is unknown at this time. Regarding any additional information on Dupont Crossing, you may want to join the "alltimeinterlockingtowerlist" yahoo group. The group is trying to assemble a list of every known interlocking tower and junction in the USA. The files section contains lists of interlockigns by state and railroad. The SAL list mentions that Dupont (crossing ACL Croghan Branch), Parrishville, Heath, and Barrelville (all three crossing the ACL Hollywood Spur) were interlocked in 1945 - each was equipped with "6 levers". My grandfather's brother in law worked for US&S and actually worked on the installation of signals on the SAL EC Line through the Charleston area and points south around 1946 (1945?). Unfortunately, he passed away long before I ever got a chance to meet him. Hope all of this helps. Buddy
Buddy - Thanks for the additional info. Although I walked the SAL line twice a week between Wappoo and Playground road for 4 or 5 years, I don't remember the location of SAL's block signals between Wappoo and the Ashley River. Therefore, I would imagine that that single 3-light signal at the crossing was an approach signal for south-bound SAL trains. To the best of my (admittedly) failing memory, the nearest set of block signals to the south (west) of the crossing, was a pair about where the slight curve for the first Stono crossing led to the bridge. Since the speed restriction on First Stono was 45 m.p.h., a restricting signal (interlocked with the ACL) would seem to have provided plenty of space to stop. Southbound, with a long straight-away, I would imagine that what (I think) was the approach signal, interlocked with the nearest block signals to the east, would also have provided enough stopping length, i.e. between Wappoo Rd. and the Ashley River crossing. Also, the Croghan's branch saw a train after sunset only on rare occassions, to my memory - mostly during construction of the second Cooper River bridge. Which fact outraged a NIMBY, who went on a crusade ag'in it. Unfortunately, I only observed the trains as they crossed Wappoo Rd, not the operation of that 3-light signal. I never observed either road's trains encounter the other road's train while moving over the crossing.
While not directly involved in this part of the thread, I am happy to report that I am the recipient of many letters (yesterday), mostly from the 1950' and 1960's, between my father and Seaboard Airline historian, Sam Appelby. Sam died not too long ago and Mrs. Abbleby contacted me through David Salter such that she could send these letters. I am in the process of reading them in detail now; however, I have read a few and they confirm some of my childhood memories. Notably, I was four years old when I saw the Aerotrain in Pennsylvania. I have one faint memory of that. Additionally, for N-Scale modelers, the Pennsylvania RR ran through coaches of the Imperial Class on the ACL to Florida. This class coach was just issued by Kato and would be prototypical on a southeastern rail layout. Other information seems to suggest who the ACL personnel was at Charleston and discussions of my grandfather in his role as an ACL conductor. Also of interest is a newspaper cutout showing and discussing the last passenger service of the SAL in Charleston. The picture shows a two car SAL train, bound for Hamlet, being pulled by a high-nose GP unit. The picture was taken at the Grove Street depot. The crown jewel though is the Charleston News and Courier report of the new ACL depot (now Amtrak) grand opening of December 4, 1956. There is even the picture of the first train in, the Havana Special. The newspaper said that the station served 11 daily trains and that it included a dispatchers office on the second floor controlling the movement of trains of all trains from Savannah and Florence as well as four branch lines. The total cost was $450,000. O.P. Dowling was cited as the superintendent of the Charleston district. The opening of the SAL Hamlet yard is included in these discussions as well, with newspaper coverage of the time. I will read these in greater detail and post anything that might be of value with respect to ACL in Charleston.
Falcon468 - That is great news. Believe that any info would be greatly welcomed. I would be fascinated by any information about your grandfather's work on the Croghans branch and Buddy Hill is putting together an article for the ACL's "cabbage patch" to be published in "Lines South," so he probably would welcome it also. I do remember the article and photo on SAL's last train out of Charleston, but not the one about the opening of the ACL's new North Station. So, please, at your convenience, post what you have either here or in your own thread(s).
I will do so. I will check up on how to get it on here. I will be in Charleston on business soon and might request a meeting with you and Buddy.
Hi gang! It's been a while since I've posted I was just wondering with the talk around "Charleston" does anyone have any photos of SY tower? I only have one that is in a book on the SCL and seeing as I am modeling this section of RR I would like to build my very own SY in N scale. any takers???? If not well I'm glad to find the time to be back on here. Eddie
Eddie - Welcome back. Had just read your post on CSXDixieLine's thread. It appears as tho' Jamie may well be modelling Seaboard's Hamlet - Atlanta line. And, he's even talking about modelling the "dark" ages, SCL and before with the acquisition of some SAL RS-2s. While I spent some pleasant Sunday afternoons with the Op at SY, I never took photo one of that tower. Hope someone will come to your aid real soon. Dave
Dave, Thanks it is good to be back in action. With summer and all and the move it has been a long haul getting settled back in. You know I know 30 yrs from now when I get ready to retire I'm gonna kick myself for not taking more pictures than I have of CSX. Anyway not to get to far off of the subject of Charleston. Was there a tower at BN as well? I feel embarrased asking such questions as seeing this is the line that I dispatch but I never got to Charleston as a kid. Unfortunately none of the yardmasters have been at Bennett more than 10- 15 yrs best as I can gather talking with them. Eddie
