It seems like just a few years ago everybody used Kato as the gage. It was either as good as a Kato, or it wasn’t. Now Kato has had a hiccup with the GS4. Intermountain has put out an incomplete announcement on the Cab Forward AND has not clarified or corrected it. Precision Craft have totally ruined what small amount or credibility they had by not keeping any type of schedule AND not communicating with their customers. Life Like has put out some steam that has had problems AND have not communicated well with their customers. Model Power has had QC issues. Bachmann has put out some well detailed but very inconsistent running locos. Con Cor has put out a steam engine that runs well but is to long on measurement and short on detail. The customer reaction is mistrust and skepticism. I for one don’t want to pre-order any new designs until they have been reviewed by actual customers. I don't trust the manufacturers enough to give them my money before seeing the finished product. This is not a healthy relationship between the manufacturers and customers. Customers are a picky lot. They demand a quality product. They also like to be given honest information. Kato did a pretty good job of damage control on the GS4/DCC issue. A good part of solving the problem was honest communication given in a timely manner. Is their fix the perfect solution that made everybody happy? No, but it is a fix that works, given in a reasonable amount of time. QC + Communication = Happy Customers I don’t understand the bunker mentality of the manufacturers. Just my 2¢ worth.
I don't know so much if they are becoming our 'enemy', but I am hesitant to pre-order any more. Then, if it is a quality model, you risk not getting one. I think in this day and age, manufacturers should know what is out there that is quality and what is junk, and if they can bring us quality, great. People will buy quality. And, I have no pity for poor QC. There is no excuse but poor managing if junk is released and expected to fly with the modelers of today. I give thumbs up to companies like Athearn that have done some great things in N Scale. And where they have failed, they fixed it.
Umm, they're in it for the money. They're not your friends. I am kind of perplexed as to why so many modellers expect some cosy emotional commitment from someone who only deals with you contingent on transfer of a sum of money. And then harps on about betrayal when they do something that doesn't come up to the mark. We have a word for people who will only be your friends for a limited period based on passing a sum of money to them, but probably no need to go there on a 'family' board ? Ben
Just remember, after a while the market (that's us) will turn its back on the product or manufacturer, and they must either improve their product or go out of business. We're not entirely powerless here. If the stuff is crap, we shouldn't buy it ( unless we're masochists or love to tinker). And even though there may be some who don't know better, we should get the word out if it IS crap (or if it's a good product). I recently made a pre-order on some Atlas GP38-2s in Frisco, based on the operating qualities of their GP38s. I expect a decent product (runs well, good paint job). I know I may have to add some details like Gyralite nose lights and rotary beacons on the cab, but I've done that on my HO stuff before, so that's no biggie.
I guess I'm not as excitable to label manufacturers as "enemies". I'm glad that there are so many good choices in N scale now compared to the 70's when I got started. There's been a huge improvement in the quality of the products in my opinion. I have been very disappointed with the performance of my Walthers 0-8-0 which is a beautiful looking loco. I won't be buying any more Walthers locomotives until I hear from this Board what people's actual experience is. Live and learn. Any time I've had to send a new engine back for repairs, Kato, Altas, IM and Bachmann have been exemplary in their customer service. I really believe other manufacturers and service industries could learn a lot from the model railroad companies. I enjoy the hobby, and someday I'll eventually get that beautiful 0-8-0 to work right!
The quality i want a mfg to express is when something does go wrong, what do they do about it and how quickly. Kato gets an A- in their GS4 problem. I also expect the mfgs. to put out a quality product. If they don't i will send it back, just like the Walthers 0-8-0. If we as customers don't hold the mfgs. to the fire then, we get what we deserve. Although i did pre-order the IM cab forward it better be on the level as Athearns challenger and big boy. If not it will go the route as the 0-8-0. I don't expect to have to tinker with it to run as it should in the first place. Don't accept poor quality, i know i don't. Dave
Yes, it is disheartening to get a new locomotive only to have it fall short of expectations in performance, or to be a mechanical disaster. Company's usually have flaws in the first runs of a new product, some work close to perfect, others have issues. The company's can't solve problems without cooperation from the consumer. They need feedback...what works, and what doesn't. If every comsumer out there bought an item and it didn't work right, and either cast it into the junk bin, or threw it to the trash without letting the company either try to correct the issues and at least know the problems, then the company can't fix it. When a company can't fix the problem their reputation goes south...and if it goes to far south the company may go belly up! But to be fair to the comsumer, companys need to listen to the need, and problems of the consumers to create the best products. And when a company listens, and works with the consumer then the relationship between both partys will be a fruitful one! Again, yes it sucks to get a new product only to find it is with flaw, but try to work patiently with the manufacture to get it fixed/or replaced...and by doing so be part of a solution to better products.
One only has to talk to half a dozen fellow N-Scalers to find two or three that have either abandoned the idea of purchasing any new N-Steam or have never planed to make any purchase to begin with. Those same half dozen will inevitably tell you they own operate and enjoy at least one Kato Mike. Mine are 15 years old and going strong. Their decision isn’t due to their disinterest in steam locomotives, it’s due to the overall poor quality and performance of the many recent steam offerings. I’ve sure gone through a bunch of them all now either shelf queens or have been passed on to others who have a lot more patience with this stuff than I do. Patience is not a virtue; Patience is the fifth Halliwell sister. Personally I think the height of performance and reliability of N-Scale diesel locomotives peeked back in the mid/late ‘90s. The problem is the companies we deal with today, Atlas, Inter-Mountain, Life-Like etc. aren’t manufactures. They may do the R&D but the factories and workers are anything but under their management or control.
I think I can explain this phenomena..I met the enemy and he is us.We have a tenancy to judge all brands by one manufacturer..The problem is which one? Kato? To many yes..Atlas? To many yes...See the folly in judging all brands by one as the absolute leader? We can't even agree there and many will become argumentative trying to prove their brand choice is superior to all comers...All of my locomotives is Atlas..Just try to sell me a Kato.As of now I have no plans on buying a Kato product period end of subject. Kinda like the old Ford/Chevy routine. We expect perfection for a box each and every time..More folly unless some one can remove the human error in manufacturing and rough handling during shipping.. ----------------------------- Scott said:Again, yes it sucks to get a new product only to find it is with flaw, but try to work patiently with the manufacture to get it fixed/or replaced...and by doing so be part of a solution to better products. ---------------------------- Great words of wisdom we can learn from unless one would care to explain how a manufacturer can fix a problem without feed back that includes returns for R/R..Forum rants? I think not..Contact with the manufacturer remains the best approach because they may not read certain forums. Yes I have met the enemy and all to sadly he is us.
Someone once said: "We never hear praises because our network was up for weeks and months straight, but as soon as we've had one hiccup everyone is sure to complain." I kinda think that we hear an abundance of QC issues is two fold, the speed and access to information. However for every single person that had a problem there are most likely scores that didnt have problems and never praised the manufacturer. Personally I have yet to have a QC issue, on average I buy 1 or 2 locomotives or operating equipment a month (today I picked up 4 locos ). I don't consider the GS4 a QC issue, I consider it a design flaw, but just like the automotive business Kato made a recall and has a great solution. To say that they hate us, can't be farther from the truth. The direct correllation between QC issues is in some mathematical way proportional to/multiplied by the speed and production at which manufacturers are working to provide us with what we ultimately want...more trains. As we demand more products, we're going to be faced with more QC issues no matter how much planning the manufacturers do for it. I worked at a fruit stand once and for every box of tomatoes I'd go through 4 or 5 were bruised or skin broken out of a box of 30 or 40. For every box I shelled out I filled a small discount basket. The more people that bought tomatoes, the more discount baskets were shelved. Eventually someone bought the discount baskets.
I don't have a strong feeling on this one. Since I started in 1972, I lived through a dark age with only a few bright spots. For many years, the Rowa 2-8-8-2 and the Con-Cor PAs were my only good runners. I tweaked and tuned the steamers, and sometimes re-motored and regeared them. In recent years, I've been rather pleased with N scale steam offerings. Yes, the LL 2-8-8-2 doesn't pull much, and wears out rather quickly compared to diesels due to its drivetrain. I can fix that without much effort. Yes, the Bachmann 2-6-6-2 was way to narrow in gauge. I must be lucky--I got mine in gauge without fouling the running gear. When I've sent things back to manufacturers, I've always received prompt service. That includes Bachmann, Life-like, Model Power, and Atlas. So I've had no unresolved complaints. I find email works better than the phone. I had a bunch of hobby companies under me in the 1970s and, man, those were tough businesses! They were really fun to visit, especially Estes, the model rocket company. And the Nuremberg and New York toy fairs were great. But turning a profit was really hard, and not for those unwilling to work very hard. So perhaps this early career experience has softened my heart for those trying to make a go of it.
I don't think the manufacturers are our enemies. I do think they need to be more aware of what is going on in the marketplace. When a competing manufacturer releases a product, they should analyze it closely for its both its positive aspects as well as its faults. When I worked for a major agricultural manufacturing firm, they would continually analyze the competions products in order to develop a better one themselves. I don't think this is the case for in this hobby. There are lots of lessons learned sitting on the hobby shop shelves and on the internet for manufacturers to better their products. It is whether or not they choose to utilize them. I have pre-ordered a cab forward, I hope it runs well since I would like a couple more, unfortunatly I won't be pre-ordering more due to my skepticism. Right now my best running locos are brass models. Of course, they took a bit of tinkering to get that way. I find the brass much easier to "perfect" than plastic models. If the IM doesn't fit the bill, I'll be on the lookout for more key cab forwards since they can be made into great runners. But once again, I fall into the pitfalls of the manufacturer, the brass models are great, but parts are hard to come by and Key is nearly impossible to get ahold of for any spare parts, that is if they have them. Manufacturers have come a long way, If they keep improving their products and customer service, I think we won't have much to complain about in the future to come.
kato has actually had a few hiccups in recent years - the FP40H trucks also come to mind. MT has stayed steady, but seen others pass it. I can't recall Atlas having any problems. I pre-order with no hesitation. Concor was basically a hiccup company, but their latest releases - WOW! LL, ditto, at least in diesels. They were the first with ultra thin handrails. IM has had some troubles in the loco dept but set a high bar in covered hoppers and other rolling stock. Athearn is producing basic blue box materials, as they do in HO, and its not quite enough for our N scale quality tastes. You get the idea. Its an ever changing landscape of producers and consumers, not unlike Howard Johnsons going downhill in the hotel and ice cream biz while other brands come up. I do think that the companies are comprised of modelers not unlike you and I, and generally have a good handle on the market intuitively. If there are more QC problems, I wonder if its driven by the move from Japan to China for mfg? While Atlas has done quite well, other mfgs might be dealing with less reputable factories. As for Kato, perhaps they simply cant' keep up with third world countries wages and have to hire from the bottom of the barrel in Japan labor pool.
Hmmmm.... The manufacturers are in the business to make money, for sure, but.... I think they also have to be in the business because they like it. There's not a big enough market for anyone to get rich off of it, just enough to let a few well run, responsive businesses make reasonable money. I think the manufacturers that do this are much closer to our friends than out enemies. Several show up on various boards, and it is clear that they want to listen, and be responsive. Atlas certainly listens on it's board. Kato reacted quickly to the GS-4 problem. Intermountain did expand on the info about the Cab Forward, though only time will tell if it will really happen. Life-Like was clearly moving ahead in quality up until their buyout, I guess the jury is still out on how their products will be received in the long run. ConCor has quirks, but that's part of their charm. Who else would have even considered giving us some of their unique products? Even Bachmann has stepped up in recent years. And Model Power is on the verge, if they can get their QC under control. so, I don't think they are the enemy. I think they are in a tough business, with a small market, and most are probably running on a knifes edge. I hope they all continue, since they each seem to bring something a bit unique to the table.
Our Enemies? They're just trying to make a buck! If they really were enemies they'd not make anything and make you scratch build everything you had :>) The problem looks like it's the steam engines, not the manufacturers. Real railroads had the similar problems and solved them by going to diesel. Are Kato diesels still reliable?...dave
Pete, I am with you, I have sent back a few Steamers that did not want to run well and also got good service from the manufacturer. The quality now days is light years in advance of what was available in 1970 when I started in N-scale. I love it and have stuck with it through the good, bad and ugly and now it is mostly good, very good!
Another Useless Post By BarstowRick Pete Steinmetz and all tuned in, It's good we discuss this. Here's my two cents and yes I take change! What you have described with regard to the relationship between modeler and model manufacturer has pretty much been, "The way it is". Going back to when I first started model railroading, as a youngster. Now I know some of you have indicated you really don't like my rehashing what once was. The good news is... "Nothings Changed". With one exception: We have more variety available to us today then I've seen in my life time. The quality of the products available to us has been greatly improved. Thanks to Kato, Micro-Trains and InterMountain, just to name a few, we have a fair number of good to excellent products. It takes active modelers in the model manufacturing administration to create something close to what each of us wants. One of the problems the manufacturers face, as does the NMRA: "What I want... may not be what you want". Thus the dilemma. Add to that the overall cost to produce a model starting with engineering right on through to tooling up and the cost can be exorbitant. A flaw built in at any point can be extremely difficult to correct. Right now we baby boomers are spending an inordinate amount of money on a hobby we weren't able to pursue as kids. How long this boom will last...I don't know. And, I'm sure manufacturers are asking the same question. Honestly, I'd rather see a company pull back on the delivery date, re-check the product and work the bugs out before it hits the market. I can wait! It used to be... a product would be announced and create all kinds of pre-order fuss. Then it would be delayed a year or longer... before it hit the LHS and we actually took the product home. Perhaps that has changed and there again: "While some things change, other things don't". Now, back to "I can wait". I'd rather wait out a delay in delivery and avoid the "hiccup" and the accompanying negative press... that occurred with Kato's, GS4. Then I sit in wonder and puzzlement as my "Daylighter" runs great and gives me little to no problems. Despite this... I do limit it's run time. Why ask for trouble? Grin! Well I've hashed and rehashed enough here and perhaps this post is "Useless"? Or viewed to be by some. I don't see it as useless. Sometimes by looking back we can see where we've come from and according to some philosophers, we can see the probabilities of where we are going. I think too, it's good to reflect on the past as it will teach us to appreciate the present. Time out for a "Corn Beef Hash" sandwich...grin! Take care and have fun...while it lasts! .
They are not 'trying' to be our enemy... but... sometimes they seem to be oblivious to the desires of the consumer. The real issues which manufacturers need to come to grips with is model railroading is NOT a necessity (well not for most ). We could just as easily take-up other hobbies if the manufacturers don't produce satisfactory items for us to "N-JOY" this hobby. I would like to keep buying model railroad items... but... only if the quality and value are consistant with what I'm paying for. I expect very good quality at a reasonable price (that doesn't mean cheap). I expect an excellent model with accurate dimensions, details... and I shouldn't have to 'fiddle' with it to make it run well. I doubt the manufacturers want to punish us... they need us to stay in the business of model railroading. They just need to get their priorities arranged so they can profit and make us lifelong addicts.
I would gladly loan the manufacturers my Ouija board or my magic 8 ball so that they can divine the solution to the best amount of quality for the least amount of money to yield the optimum amount of value so that they can make a descent amount of profit in order to stay in business and be able to satisfy "us lifelong addicts." Did I cover everything?
I guess if someone is sniping at me I would consider them my enemy... Why are the loudest proponents of this issue those that either haven't the initiative, desire or capabilities to bridge the gap between expectations and actuality? And to take up Joe's point about someone taking up another hobby, could anyone seriously imagine a ruckus erupting over a R/C car not being prototypical?
