I know going DC or DCC has probably been beat to death, but I want to give you some facts about what I plan to do so you can give me some advice. -My layout is probably going to be a little more simple than typical. I'm on the fence about what I'm going to do, even as far as N or HO. Leaning towards N. For the purpose of this discussion we'll assume I'm going N scale. -Planning on most likely a door layout. It's my first layout and will likely be my only layout for atleast 3 years or so as it's all space will allow. -In my mind I'm looking at a double oval type of deal that may or may not initially be attached to each other. Would like to have the outter loop to have a steamer pull around passenger cars for constant roundy round action. On the inner loop, I'd like to have a diesel do 2 things. 1.) serve as a second roundy round deal when I just want to sit back and watch the trains go round, or run in the background when I'm in the room doing other things. and 2.) when I feel like it, I'd like to run the outter loop with the steamer and passenger cars, while working some frieght on some spurs coming off the inner loop with the diesel. - Now this could all be as simple as a dc powerpack powering just the unattached outter loop for the steamer. Then a separate powerpack that is hooked to the inner loop with the inner sidings/spurs. Kinda operate them as 2 separate tracks I guess you'd say. Call this idea #1 - Or I suppose I could operate all the track and both trains with one or two dc powerpacks. Call this idea #2 - Or I could go DCC and operate it all as one. Call this idea #3 - Again, I'd like to keep things as simple and affordable as possible. I don't plan on operating the layout with anyone other than myself. I don't plan on operating or having more than 2 trains on the layout at once. This is going to be a pretty simple layout as I'm a beginner and also have some disabilities that will likely keep from ever expanding much beyond a simple layout like this. Which of those ideas should I go with, or what is the pros and cons of all 3? I don't plan on owning more than 3 or 6 locos for the next 3 years or so for my purposes. If I go DCC I could always convert those later. I'm also going to be using Kato unitrack if that factors into your recommendations. In fact, if i go with "idea #1" listed above, I'd likely get a kato powerpack that the switches snap to (I realize that's not necessary) and then get any cheapo powerpack to run the train that will do nothing but constantly run the outter loop. If I go with "idea #2, I'd likely go with a MRC powerpack. If i go with #3 I'd probably picj up one of the cheap bachmann or MRC dcc systems or something in their price range. Definatly not able to afford anything nicer than that. I plan to stay in the hobby long term. However I could see arguments going either way for this initual 2-3 year plan. Sorry for the long post, but I can't expect good answers if I don't explain the whole long story, LOL I welcome all opinions/recommendations.
Here's my take: 1. If you are dead set that your requirements won't change, I probably wouldn't spring for a DCC unit. I am a firm believer that DCC is the way to go, even (especially) for beginners, but it sounds like you are running two trains on separate loops and that's kinda it. 2. Do you have ANY DC packs right now? If not, and you are planning to purchase the units you've mentioned, and you have any tinge of an idea that you will be doing something more than the two loop scenario, then I would consider looking at a basic DCC setup. Unless you are going to rely on basic el cheapo DC packs, you're gonna spend $50-60 or more on the two packs, and at that point you are well on your way to something like a Zephyr. 3. If you decide to spring for DCC, the only "entry level" systems I would personally recommend are the Digitrax Zephyr and the Lenz Set 90. These two are relatively inexpensive but have components that equal the more robust models. Just my opinion, of course.
Thanks Doug, To answer your question on the DC packs. No, I don't have anything yet. For the first time, I'm trying to research BEFORE I buy and see how that works, LOL! How much is the zephyr? Where could you recommend me buying it? Is it hard to setup and use for a Beginner? Incase I decide to go that route I mean.... I was wondering... has anyone had actual experience with the inexpensive Bachmann DCC? Or is it one of those deals where bachmann=junk no matter which Bachmann product it is? I only ask because I have seen those go brand new on eBay for like $50. I didn't know if it would be better than the DC route for that price. I read into them last year and it said it was limited as far as 10 locos and not as many cv functions as higher priced systems, but supposedly did what it was supposed to do. Just wondering if that wouldn't suit my needs. Personally, I'm not sure what it really saves you on a layout such as I'm descibing. i always hear this "only hook 2 wires to the entire layout"! which is ususally followed by, "you should still wire for blocks anyway for troubleshooting shorts" and people on here telling you they still feed to every single piece of track for reliability. So what does that really save you? I'm not telling you, I'm asking you.... I have no idea other than what I read...
DC Not really sure what the difference is between #1 and #2, but get a couple of cheap DC controllers off ebay - with so many people going DCC there should be plenty of choice.
The Zephyr is about $160 from Litchfield Station, Home Page I'd add the NCE PowerCab to the list of potential starter set candidates. As far as the "two wires to the layout" thing, but wire in blocks anyway.... Wiring multiple blocks for troubleshooting is a good idea, but it can be fewer blocks than you would use for a block control system, and the sxtra switching for each block is not required. In the case of a layout you size, you probably would only have two blocks, the inner loop and the outer loop. As far as feeding every piece of track, that is a good idea. But remember, that isn't referring to sectional track. And it isn't even really referring to every piece. When people say that they really mean that every piece of track should either have a feeder, or be soldered to a track that has a feeder. Generally, as a rule of thumb, there might be two, or possibly three, flextrack sections soldered together with one set of feeders. So feeders would end up being soldered every six to nine feet. If you are using sectional track, I'd solder the joints of six or eight pieces, with one set of feeders to that section. Leave the next set of joiners unsoldered to allow for movement. Jeff EDIT: If you really are not going to connect the loops, DCC won't get you much. But as has been said, two decent power packs is getting you a long ways towards a DCC system, so it really depends on what you plan on the future.
I'll have to think about it some more I guess... Thanks for the information. I'll also have to see what my money situation is. They are close in price I agree, but if the zephyr is $160, I can definatly come up with 2 new powerpacks for half that price, and used ones for a fraction of the $160. I guess you can never go wrong with DCC though... As far as the 2 loops, I guess my goal would be to eventually connect them via kato double crossover. One of the many things that would have to wait though.
I would add the NCE PowerCab now as well to my list of recommended systems. Just got an e-mail that said the USB adapter in the works for so long should ship by the end of the month, and the latest version of JMRI has added support for the PowerCab. That is basically my criteria for suggesting a DCC system, outside of ergonomics or conversely some "show stopper" feature.
Me and DC I'm running DC right now with a Railpower 1300 made by MRC. It's simple to use:turn knob for power, Side screws for wire hook up, Two sets of screws one for accesories the other track hookup, on/off switch, directional switch, and overload light. I don't remember the price but the box had a picture of a K-4 or something. One site i've seen has it for 29.95. It'd probably be better than anything you'll get from Bachmann DC or DCC. The only thing that's gone wrong with mine is the number and letter paint came off.
And then there are decoders to go in the locos ... Yes you can. Please don't be 'sold' DCC by DCC enthusiasts - you don't need a USB port or JMRI. For what you have described at this stage DCC would be overkill. If in a year or few you feel DCC is what you want and need, then it won't be a big deal to change over at that time - maybe when you are moving to a larger or more complex layout. I'm not anti-DCC by the way, I've had it myself for about 5 years.
Thanks. I wouldn't think it was necessary for what I'm doing either. I plan to be in this hobby for the long haul and I guess my main concern was buying a bunch of analog locos that would need decoders later. Not that I'll have money to buy a ton of them, but would probably accumulate quite a few over a 2-3 year period. Let me ask you guys this... what's the deal with the voltage with DC versus DCC. It's sounding like to me that DCC is a higher voltage situation. Wouldn't that be harder on analog locos with a decoder added, then locos that were dcc from the factory, or no? I'm speaking in terms of the motors and what they were designed to operate on? Also, if I understand correctly, some of the high end dcc systems let you control how much voltage goes to the track, where simple systems like the Bachmann are fixed at 16 volts or whatever I read it was??
Planning ahead is good. I pretty much figure that costwise I am getting four DCC equipped locomotives for what five analog locos would cost, more or less. For me, it is worth it. As far as the voltage goes, you might be overthinking a bit. The DCC voltage on the tracks is a little higher than what a DC powerpack provides, but the output from the decoder to the motor is pretty much what the motor is meant to see. The motor in either locomotive from the factory is the same. There are systems that allow the track voltage to be adjusted, which, in the end, also adjusts the motor voltage. This capability is probably not a big deal in HO and N scale, but is useful in Z scale, and in larger scales. Jeff
Hi Speedy, I had a Bachmann EZ-DCC controller and would consider it a good option for you at this stage. It is simple to use and is cheap, it doesn't have all the bells and whisles of the more expensive controlers but is really good value for money. It does support sound decoders but not all of the functions. Also you can't change any of the more advanced functions in a standard decoder. But I had a lot of fun with it before I upgraded to a NCE power cab. The thing with DCC is you are able to have multiple locos sitting on your layout and just run the ones you select. It is just less frustrating than having multiple power packs to run DC and the extra wiring for block control. Have FUN!
Hi Cleggie! I have seriously considered getting the Bachman E-Z command DCC. To me it makes more sense then buying 2 powerpacks, especially when I can get a new EZ system on ebay for around $60. I have mentioned this idea to several people and they've all shot it down. I think some people have in their head that since it's Bachmann, run the other way. i know I'm stiull giving it thought. I know it's limitations, but I think it would do the job for me. However, the other part of me thinks I should just bite the bullet and get the NCE Powercab or the Zephyr. Then again another part of me thinks I should just stick with DC. I think the Bachmann is a great choice because in a sense it will do the job of me buying 2 powerpacks for a few dollars less and then if I ever needed to upgrade down the road it would be a smooth transition as I'd already have all DCC locos. Opinions vary on this as I've already found out. I'm just trying to research all I can so I can make an educated decision. I'm really surprised the bachmann doesn't come more highly recommended for newbies such as myself thinking of small layouts.
Here is what I think, worth just what you pay for it.... I think it makes little sense to buy two good powerpacks that you know you will only use for a short (in geological time) time. Even though you'll most likely replace the Bachmann, you can use it as you upgrade, until it no longer meets your needs. The powerpacks would become a pain the instant you wanted to run the trains on the same track. So, I think I'd get the Bachmann now. By the time you are ready to upgrade, the cost of the more 'advanced' systems may well have come down, plus, there may be more, better, options. You'll be able to use the Bachmann until you decide you need more. Jeff
Can't disagree with any of the above speedy. You seem to be taking a very measured look at the situation which is good. Just one thing ... I'm in HO not N, so I could be wrong, but I don't think you'll find a whole lot of locos ready fitted with decoders at present. Even in HO a lot are still only "DCC ready" (they have a socket and maybe some space ). So 'now' you would quite likely be buying analogue engines anyway and fitting decoders in them. And decoder sizes will no doubt continue to shrink over time, so fitting them in a few years time might actually be easier than now.
Most new Atlas locos are available with decoders, and have drop ins available. Some of the Classic line are not, it depends on their heritage. Most Katos have drop in decoders available from Digitrax or NCE or both. LifeLike is lagging in this area, though Walthers may be getting around to changing that. Up to now, most LifeLikes required a wired in decoder and frame surgery. (Note that drop in decoders can be a bit of work, just because disassembly and assembly of these beasties can be tricky, sometimes). Jeff
First, I think you have some excellent advice here and it seems like you have a pretty good idea of your situation. I think a big part of the reason that you are getting questionable responses regarding the Bachmann unit has less to do with actual experience and more to do with the unknown...i.e. people haven't used it. There is some merit to that, though, because if you don't have a large base of fellow modelers that own that Bachmann system, then you have less help if there are problems (outside of Bachmann). Personally I think it's probably a decent system (it is made by Lenz, who also makes the Atlas system, and of course their own higher-end units) and I don't think I'd worry about giving it a shot. If you haven't already, check out http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bachmann_DCC for more info including several posts with the same basic question you are asking. I think given the simplicity of what you are describing that the Bachmann MIGHT be perfect for you...I just can't say for sure because I've not used one. You can look at it a couple of ways...buy the Bachmann for $60 (does that include a power supply? just asking) and you aren't out any more than a couple of DC packs and you are on your way. Or, you can look at it like...for another $70 you can get a PowerCab or Zephyr and maybe a little more product support and room for growth. (although possibly you will never need anything more than the Bachmann provides, as you said)
DCC voltage is a fixed AC-like voltage that's always on track (whilst the system is on, of course) whereas DC voltage is variable from 0 to around 12 volts DC. In a DC system the position of the throttle determines the voltage to the motor from the track and hence the speed. Different locomotives have different motor designs and speeds, and usually different gearing, making a selection of unique locomotives operate differently at the same throttle position. In a DCC system the throttle position sends a command to the decoder which applies the motor voltage dependant on an inbuilt 'speed curve' and hence the speed. The advantage here is the value of the throttle position as read by the decoder is variable (the speed curve) so all locomotives can be programmed to start moving around the same throttle position and have a similar maximum speed. As a rule of thumb, out of 256 possible speed curve values 0=0v and 255=12v to the motor. Locomotives available with factory fitted decoders are the same as those fitted with aftermarket decoders - most if not all are drop-in types. I think all have a default speed curve programmed in, though these may be slightly different than the factory version. For example, a number of Atlas DCC-equipped locomotives have a Lenz-sourced decoder (LE063XF) but an aftermarket version is also made by Digitrax (DN143A0), NCE (N12AO) and TCS (AMD1). Yes, some, if not all, high-end DCC systems have the ability of adjusting the output voltage to better suit scale. I think G Scale is generally around the 18 volt mark where Z and N is around 12-13 volts and I believe it's more to do with the decoders and the size of their components than the motors (though I'm probably wrong regarding G Scale motor voltage requirements ).
Thanks for the great info guys! I'm still not 100% clear on the voltage thing. I understand that you are adjusting the voltage to the track with DC and that it's constant with DCC. What I still don't understand is why the Bachmann puts out 16 volts constant, and for example, Tower Hobbies website tech info says that the MRC Tech4 220 DC powerpack has "Output: 23V DC, 18.5V AC" wouldn't either the Bachmann DCC or the MRC powerpack be harmful to your loco motor if that was correct? Sorry to be so thick headed.....
