Exploring DCC vs DC on a small layout

Mark Watson Apr 24, 2009

  1. Mark Watson

    Mark Watson TrainBoard Member

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    Yeah, I've made a control panel out of cardboard before. But we still have to acknowledge its a required step for DC.

    Multiple controllers for DCC: On a small layout we don't need two or more at all. Every DCC controller I've seen allows a user to control at least 5 trains via the push of a recall button.

    Decoders and installation I think is probably the hardest point to counter on this one. But I will say the advantage of decoders gives you precise speed control, MU options, light control. I said this in a thread a while back. If you look at it relatively, there's not much, other than a few scenic supplies, that you can purchase in this hobby for under 20 bucks. And if you look at it logically, there is absolutely nothing in the hobby, I think, that has more functionality.

    I agree, if you want the cheapest layout you can get, A 20 dollar bachmann engine some EZ track and a Bachmann brick is the way to go. But if you're planning on running complex operations on a layout such as the one we're using for example here. You might as well invest the money where it will outlast you're impulses. You could spend 30 bucks on a simple DC set up for the layout, but what happens in a month when you decided you want more than a few blocks? Your out that 30 bucks and the time you spent wiring up that simple DC set up.

    Ok, ok, now I know someone out there is thinking "Well who are you to talk?". I'm an unemployed full time student, and have been the past 2 years. If I can afford DCC, anyone can. :p
     
  2. Benny

    Benny TrainBoard Member

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    The point of this is not that one system is better than the other. DCC is a no brainer when complexity approaches X where X is a function described by the number of switches, passing sidings, and locomotives that must function in space Y. Below X we can see there is a very valid solution without DCC and it will accomplish a number of things.

    Revisiting the test layout:

    [​IMG]

    In the case of Mystere's lyaout, I determined this layout could be done with 9 blocks - perhaps ten, perhaps 7. I did not block off every single siding because I presumed that having two locomotives in the spur districts at once could become hectic. Each spur is a stub spur, and if your switcher is shoving cars in or out, any locomotive at the end of the spur is going to be trapped behind a cut of cars. I didn't even block off the spur in the lower left corner because in looking at that district, a second locomotive in that area could lead to crowding very quickly - the switcher can't sit in the spur and recieve a cut of cars - it will need to use at least one track of the passing siding to recieve cars. But it could be another bock and add a little more funcitonality, though I don't think much.

    Will DC accomplish everything DCC will do? No. But I will offer the comparison between a second hand Ford and a top of the line Volvo with City Smart. You don't have to have everything in the new bundle to ENJOY the entity itself. And it will not prevent you form getting to work everyday. And as for city smart, you're just going to have to imagine you have it by pressing the brake pedal down every time you approach a cut of cars sitting at traffic lights and such. When you can't afford top of the line, you tend to get a richer imagination to fill in all the empty places filled by that technological feature.

    This hobby requires Space, Time and Money. If money is no object, Go DCC, because chances are you also bought a large building and you have the time to build a large empire OR ability to pay someone to build your empire for you if you don't have the immediate time to do it yourself. If you go through the pages of "Great Model Railroads" you will find some layouts that are "Contract" layouts.

    If you must count your pennies, however, save the expense now and put your energy towards those things that play towards the the thrifty Model Railroader. There is a very good reason there are so many articles within the pages of the Model Railroad press about building all sorts of projects from scratch. For starters, buying commercial products IS expensive. Building projects IS expensive too, in terms of Time. But there is this general trend that suggests those who have too much time often have not enough money, and those with too much money have too little time!!

    If you absolutely must have DCC, Bachmann EZDCC is very affordable. You can only run ten locomotives on it, but honestly now, how often do you run more than two or three locomotives at once? Where there's a will...there's a way.

    So either way the point here is to empower anyone to enjoy the hobby even if they can't afford the expense of this wondertoy DCC. I'm still sad I was all tapped out of cash when I saw a Large DCC digitrax IR kit on Ebay for $200, as it also had about four or five DT400s. A Very nice setup!!! But I was broke. So I didn't get it.

    And a couple months later when I DID have a little money, I bought something else. The Walther's RTR 90' Turntable!! Yes, it was going to go onto the layout and it would have given me a wonderful operating engine terminal, but then only three or four weeks later I tore the layout down! Oh the irony! But such is life!

    I was once a student; it was then I had the largest train budget in my life, but then there was a financial aid check fueling the fires!!! Life's quite a bit different once school lets out!
     
  3. JCater

    JCater TrainBoard Member

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    As I am operating both DC and DCC I have a somewhat unique perspective. I was completely against DCC two years ago, being somewhat of a Luddite. Now, the only reason I have DC at all is because the DC engines I have are VERY difficult to convert to DCC. There is no real comparison in my opinion. DCC is far superior for control (I can make my DCC locos CRAWL along if I like), lighting, and of course sound. The DC versions are jumpy, have very poor slow speeds, light only when running, and have no sound. If I ever get good enough at installing decoders you can bet the DC portion of the layout will be converted to DCC...
     
  4. COverton

    COverton TrainBoard Supporter

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    DCC frees you from all concerns except return loops and improperly lined routes (turnouts not lined for your intended route).

    That comes at a cost, especially initially, and especially if you have to convert many older engines. Then, it also costs those who start newly in the hobby, but in DCC, and must either convert "DCC ready" engines, or purchase engines with decoders installed.

    But my first statement, I feel strongly, says it all. You drive your trains, not the layout.
     
  5. Benny

    Benny TrainBoard Member

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    Regardless of which system you're using, the electricity source is still the rails as is the command source. Track cleaning is still vital for flawless operaiton. So regardless of which system you use, you're still running your trains using the track.

    Put the DCC signal in the air [I.E, directly from the controller or the main command bus to the locomotive decoder] and I will buy this arguement.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 26, 2009
  6. Mark Watson

    Mark Watson TrainBoard Member

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    Yes, but remember the block restrictions. I cant park a train on any siding I wish unless each siding is broken up into a block. That's why we would need at least 18 blocks to get the layout DCC equivalent in DC. The electricity source is still the rails, but the train speed and direction is what differs "running the trains, not the track"
     
  7. Benny

    Benny TrainBoard Member

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    Yes, but would you wish to park an engine behind a cut of cars in a siding? And would you have more then one locomotive working the industry? Chances are, no.

    So you can leave spur clusters as single blocks unless you intend to park engines on those spurs.

    Passing sidings are obvious blocks.
     
  8. COverton

    COverton TrainBoard Supporter

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    Benny, my entire yard is one big "block". I can make two DCC engines move independently in either direction no matter where they are in the "block". I don't have to reach to throw a relay or a toggle so that Engine A moves forward while Engine B reverses when their noses are both facing the same end of my yard. Then, while each engine is moving, I can make Engine B accelerate to three times yard speed which will have no effect on Engine A. I won't have had to reach for a separate throttle to boost the voltage to Engine B's gapped block.

    That is what I meant about driving the trains and not the layout (or the electrical system).
     
  9. Mike Sheridan

    Mike Sheridan TrainBoard Member

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    Your assertion that DCC is so expensive that users of it can afford/have the other stuff you mention is frankly ludicrous. A cheap DCC system with a few decoders actually costs little more than a couple of decent locos, and the total cost of even a smallish layout with a handful of trains is a heck of a lot more than that.

    The 'cost' breakpoint (if starting a layout from scratch and allowing for the costs of the extra wiring and switchgear DC needs) is probably quite a modest size. The operational advantages of DCC are without doubt greater, but this is countered by a somewhat lower reliability.

    If you already have a DC layout and no money to spare, then clearly DCC is not an option.
    But although this recession may mean 10% more of us have no spare cash, the other 60...70...80% are still employed/pensioned and many of them will be in much the same financial state as before - just a bit more nervous :) . OTOH because business is tight there are some bargains to be had, like a pair of BLI locos for the price of one.
    So the cost of DCC is not really that big a factor these days unless you start using it to run all your turnouts as well.

    The technical difficulty of installing and programming decoders is probably a bigger issue for a lot of people, and I can understand that.
     
  10. Dave Balderston

    Dave Balderston TrainBoard Member

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    With DC, there is the issue of installing blocks. With DCC, there is the issue of installing decoders. I don't feel comfortable encouraging people who dosn't know what they are doing to take a shot at installing a decoder, expecially if there is no way to check out the locomotive on DC beforehand.

    I have a bunch of locomotives that would need to be hardwired, and some would require dremeling. Plan B is to keep running them on DC, and that's what I'm going to do, at least for a while. (Plan C is to get somebody else to install the decoder.) Having DC around also gives me more flexibility in deciding when I am going to get around to installing a decoder in a new locomotive, which is a plus to me.

    To me, it makes a lot of sense to have DC around, even if you are mostly running DCC. Basic DC can be had for about the price of one decoder, which is pretty reasonable. So, if you are going to have a DC capability, why not start with it?
     
  11. JCater

    JCater TrainBoard Member

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    I agree with Dave to the extent that I will not likely attempt to put decoders in some of my engines. So what to do? Design a DC layout that can be operated independently from the DCC system. As for cost, I am by no means "wealthy" nor do I have a gigantic space in which to build. There are certain features I want for my operation that simply cannot be gained using DC. I look at it like this: would you buy a cheaper locomotive that looked right for your layout but ran terribly, or would you bite the bullet and spend that little bit extra to have a good looking/well running engine? The same thing applies for DCC. These days MANY engines are either DCC ready or have a decoder in them from the manufacturer. A DCC system can be purchased almost for the price of a decent DC controller. When I took the dive I bid on and got an older Prodigy system from EBay. This was a smart move: since I did not know if I would like it I did not go whole hog and buy a new system. The basic intro Prodigy system also turned out to be very easy to use as an intro to DCC. You of course must makle the decision that is right for you, but as I mentioned before comparing DC to DCC is like comparing apples and oranges...
     
  12. GregK

    GregK TrainBoard Member

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    NCE Powercab. $189 MSRP.

    DC, IMHO, is not worth it if you are starting out. Go DCC. You'll be VERY glad you did.

    I did, on my 2' x 4' layout. Cool thing is, my NCE Powercab controller is compatible with the NCE Powerhouse when I start building the big layout in the basement.
     
  13. Benny

    Benny TrainBoard Member

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    You once again forgot the price of the decoder in the locomotive. Add $15 to the powercab $189 and you have $204.

    You're looking at the equivalent 10 and 5 video games at Gamestop.

    But you did not tell me how small your "small' layout is - you may have a 2x4, but if it is a Spaghetti Bowl then conceptually you have a much larger layout.

    All the same, 2x2s are $1.82 a piece and plywood is $16 for a 4x8. You need 1.5 2x2s to frame a 2x4 plywood module, about $7 if I cut it right. Make it an even $8 to accomodate screws. You want 4 2-foot legs? Fine, an even $10!

    The point is, I can build the entire layout and be running it without breaking the $200 point. $200 can be a LOT of money if you choose to spread it.
     
  14. GregK

    GregK TrainBoard Member

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    $15 is cheap for a decoder! :)

    However, it shouldn't merely be about dollars. There is often a value associated with an expense.

    For me, my non-spaghetti bowl, 2x4 layout, with 5 industries:
    [​IMG]

    does not NEED DCC. But it makes it a LOT easier to operate. No toggle switches to throw when wanting to run a different engine.

    It's up to the individual.
     
  15. Mark Watson

    Mark Watson TrainBoard Member

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    Here's a thought that came to my mind today.

    You're buying a new tv. CRT or LCD? I think we can all agree that we go LCD hands down, no matter how much more expensive it is. Well.. change that choice to DC or DCC.

    I think this thread has been beneficial in that we're sort of venturing from just a topic of choice into a topic of which is a better investment. One of the things I've noticed is that when pushing for DC to save money, we're forgetting that future modeling desires SHOULD be considered. In another thread it was stated "not everyone plans to expand their layout". Well, I've come to relate that to getting a college degree, just for the sake of having it, and continuing to working at a minimum wage job. To me, that does not make sense. I think it's fair to say, most who take up this hobby dream of that "empire layout" right? Even if we must start with a small oval, why not invest in a control system that has great advantages once that empire day comes?
     
  16. Benny

    Benny TrainBoard Member

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    There is no question in terms of Screens; the LCDs are a savings over everything in a way that cannot even really be compared!

    Now as for your colelge degree line of thought, do you have any idea who many minimum wage degree holders there are out there??? Let me clue you in: Holding a college degree in our Global economy don't mean Jack Squat!!! ;)

    Future Modeling desires Should indeed be considered. DCC is one of those future desires, because there is a point where DCC IS the Answer. There is a practicality to this equaiton, though. Let us suppose you buy a $200 dollar system today, with plans to use it in ten years on a ginormaous system that wil definately be DCC. The next ten years you have a layout that never gets bigger than a 1-1.5-2 loco layout. And then you finally get that Ginormous layout opportunity to discover:

    1. The new DCC systems are light years ahead of these ones.
    2. The new DCC systems cost a fraction of what tese ones cost.
    3. The new DCC systems are completely incompatible with the old ones.
    4. The old DCC systems are so undesireable you'd have an easier time giving away a copperclad DC MRC...
    5. Inflation has made your now $200 the equivalent of tomorrow's $500.

    The big picture is indeed important if you are modeling on a tight budget in a narrow economy. I Desire a huge 2400 squarefoot layout. That doesn't mean I should go out and buy everything TODAY! For starters I'd end up BANKRUPT.
     
  17. Mark Watson

    Mark Watson TrainBoard Member

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    1. The new DCC systems are light years ahead of these ones.

    Of course, but if we wait for the better technology of tomorrow, we'll never enjoy the technology of today. As a more clear example; You dont buy a CRT because LCD technology is in production. Then you dont buy a LCD because Plasma tech. is in production. Then you dont buy a plasma because Laser tech is in production. Ect. Ect. Ect. In the end, you never have a tv and you've missed out on a world of entertainment.
    2. The new DCC systems cost a fraction of what these ones cost.

    Just like Computers/TVs/Cell phones/ all electronics ever. Just as above, in the end you never have the product and you've missed out on a world of entertainment.

    3. The new DCC systems are completely incompatible with the old ones.


    NMRA has a set of standards requiring all DCC products to be compatible. So ten years from now, all decoders and systems from today will still work, just like decoders from 10 years ago still work.

    4. The old DCC systems are so undesireable you'd have an easier time giving away a copperclad DC MRC...


    Again, you'll find systems/decoders from 10 years ago that work just like new and are compatible with current products/technology.
    5. Inflation has made your now $200 the equivalent of tomorrow's $500.

    If this is true, you've saved 10,000 dollars over the years having equiped your locos with decoders before inflation hit. :p
     
  18. Mark Watson

    Mark Watson TrainBoard Member

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    Ok.. well economic disaster aside. :p

    How about this metaphor. Buying a treadmill and never using it.
     
  19. Benny

    Benny TrainBoard Member

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    You have any Idea how many "Convienient Folding and hide under the bed" treadmills go under the bed and never come out again?? ;)

    I would compare this to haveing 38" tires on your Hummer...that you drive a round trip of two hours each day to an office in the concrete and asphalt jungle...
     
  20. Mike Sheridan

    Mike Sheridan TrainBoard Member

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    Er ... isn't that normal over there? Or is that only in Texas? I get confused ... :)
     

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