Any thoughts on the 2. Which is easier to program? I can get the zephyr for $150, and the empire for $260. Both somewhat cheap, just wondering what everyone thinks thanks Ben
How big of a railroad are you thinking of running, how many operators, and what scale? I have and use a Zephyr for the home layout. If I had had more money right off I might have gotten one of the larger sets.
Sorry I should have mentioned the size. It's just a shelf switching layout 18"x10' n scale. 1 operator but may build a bigger layout in the future, distant. I like the hand held unit but am torn in terms of programming. I was thinking of buying a hand held unit with the plug in box, after I get the basics down with the zephyr????????? thanks Ben
I asked a similar question last week and what I got in response was the that the zephyr can read a decoder where as the empire builder can't, but the super chief can. Now you 'give up' a walkaround throttle with the zephyr, but you can get a UT4 for $70 and have $220 in the system (plus some wires and plug in ports or an IR adapter and be wireless).
The Super Empire Builder is a brute of a system, but ancient. It doesn't even have a programming circuit, but sends the programming signals through the same terminals as it does operational signals. So, you don't really have to have a programming track because you can programme anywhere on your layout...provided you remember to remove any other decoders when doing the addressing as recommended, and that would be Paged Mode. In Paged Mode, every decoder is obliged to effect the changes internally that you send out via the wires, even if you were addressing the new engine with address 03. (That is why most of us still have a gapped and isolated section of track on/off the layout where we do the addressing.) On the other hand, being able to read the current values in a decoder's CV's is quite handy. But you lose a lot of power when you use the Zephyr over the SEB with its 5 amps. I don't know how long a person would have a DCC system, but if you could foresee switching from N to HO in 20 years, and needing the power, I would say keep notes about your decoders' CV values for a reference, and get the power now. But would either system be working in 20 years? Maybe. Could you put the money you save by buying a Zephyr to better use today? That should cloud things up nicely. :tb-err: -Crandell
Are you really set on the Digitrax system? If so why? Maybe you have a club that you visit and could use your throttle there, and that would be one reason. Or maybe you have a friend the is using a Digitrax system. Not sure. For the MOST simple to use ( also user friendly) I would take a look a NCE's Power Cab. $150.00- not wireless- and you can't move the throtte from port to port with out the system going down. Also it will not run a non DCC equiped locomotive. This is a hand held unit. You can up grade if you need to by using what is called a Smart Booster. Just some ideas for you to look into. BTW the Power Cab will read and write to any decoder in the program mode. Both systems are good. Just some +s and -'s in each system.
I looked at the NCE Power Cab and it's very tempting. But I want 2 cabs and it would be nice if both can be walk around. But adding a booster and simple throttle to the power cab starts to cost more than the zephyr with 2 simple throttles added on. they all get pricey if you got for the top throttles.
With a second cab, a Cab04P (~$71 street), you have two walkarounds. No need for a booster and you can put a UTP elsewhere on the layout so the Cab04P can be moved from the PCP if need be. An additional benefit is portability of the PowerCab throttle - if you have a workbench separate from the layout, you can install and test at the workbench for the cost of an additional PCP and power supply and a short length of track (or rollers). As for programming, I don't believe it comes simpler than the PowerCab.
Thanks for all the replies. I never thought about anything other then the digitrax. I may look to other options. Having a programming track isn't a big deal I was going to add one to my staging yard right in front of my work bench. Lots to think about thanks Ben
It's only 2 amps of power and some folks feel the 2.5 amp zephyr is a bit weak. Here NCE PowerCab Debut | Tony's Tips at Tony's Train Exchange. it implies you need a booster to add cabs. Certainly seems easy to add a booster to add power. Not sure how the digitrax zephyr handles the ability to add more power (same way or must you replace the control station with an EB/SC?) Now the NCE manual shows adding a second cab is as simple as plugging it in to the bus.
True, but one of them has to stay tethered, so it can not be used more than 7 feet from the Power Panel.
For a 18" x 10' switching layout, it's likely that 2 amps is plenty of power to get started. You only need enough amps for locos that are moving. Modern N scale locos require very low amps/loco (on the order of .2 amp or so). On a switching layout, you'll not likely have enough locos to require more power. At least to start with. DCC is like a circular learning experience, you keep going around and learn more and more. So it's OK to start out small with power and expand later. Over the course of time the small incremental cost difference won't matter. More important is to choose. Here's some good words for choosing from one of my local DCC experts, agnostic to a brand, see below. Hope this helps! ================ My basic belief is truly that none of the big 3 (Digitrax, NCE, Lenz) has a -real- techonological or economical advantage over any of the others. Yes, there are differences and yes those differences are considered to be important ... in fact "very" important ... to -some- people. I don't happen to be in that camp and think than all 3 of them are equally good (none of them is "perfect" and each system has its own group of haters and lovers). Jim from San Jose area, Calif ********************************************** "What DCC System Should I Buy?" This topic comes up over and over again. There are many answers to this question. This is -my- answer when I'm asked. I've said this many many times - on this list and others - in my opinion there isn't enough real difference between the 'Big 3 of DCC' (Digitrax, NCE, and Lenz) to make the decision easy. They all have approximately the same capabilities, the same amount of 'gotchas' and 'gee whizzes' and guys who hate them and guys who like them - often passionately on both sides. It is certainly a slippery slope to think that you can pick one over the other based upon any kind of "technological advantage" from the big picture/overall point of view. Yes, on individual topics one might be better than the other ... but overall it's not so easy to m ake that kind of statement ... and not have the discussion/arguments get into the esoterics/prejudices of the individual. I've operated on all 3 - Digitrax and NCE more than Lenz but still all 3. I can't see a huge advantage for one over the other. Yeah, there is the "what throttle fits your hand best" thing ... to which I say "so what". I own both Digitrax and NCE throttles and take them with me to op sessions. I've worked on both NCE and Digitrax layouts - doing the DCC wiring/implementation. I'm very definitely "that other guy on the block" ... the one who doesn't have a preference! Heck, you can't even say that one of the big three is significantly different in cost from the other two. Yeah one of them costs a bit more and one a bit less ... but the variation for the same size layout isn't a good enough reason to choose one over the other based purely upon price/cost. And none of them is truly "easier to work on" or "easier to use". For some people one "fits them" better than the others ... but each has its devotees who swear by "their choice" ... and the "haters" who will bad mouth "the other ones". I'm not saying that those people are 'wrong' ... I'm saying that the reasons why they are strongly for - or against - one system over another one is a more of a "personal" reason ... than a technological/economic reason. However - that doesn't mean that -YOU- shouldn't have a preference. In fact I advise that you do pick one system over the other. And the way to pick them is easy. Get the one that most of your model railroading buddies/acquaintances have! If everybody around you has NCE and you buy Digitrax ... then "who you gonna call?". I do -not- recommend being a "loner". Or trying to do DCC by reading online forums and self-study. Don't get me wrong - I'm a firm believer in learning from groups like this one and in reading on your own - I did and DO a lot of that. But I also KNOW that if you don't have some regular (weekly?) "face time" with one or more DCC gurus that you are gonna take longer, not go as far, be more frustrated, be more likely to put it all aside like you did the Prodigy and then drop it entirely, etc., etc., etc. There is absolutely no substitute for being able to call someone - who knows your system because he's been there and done that - to ask a question about something you are attempting to do and having trouble with. And that person is also a resource that will also allow you to spend a lot less time going down roads that lead nowhere. DCC is one of those technical topics that is "circular". It is like you are on a merry-go-round and every time you come around and get to look down "main street" you notice something else. The first time all you see is the road and that there are buildings on either side of it. The next few times you start to fill in the facts about what businesses are in the buildings, which one is next door to the other one, how many people are in the street, etc. Yes, there is some structure and if you have that down you can learn/do faster ... but there is a lot of just being exposed to stuff over and over so that you start to see the nuances of the topic. We have a weekly event here in the San Jose area called "the DCC lunch". Every Friday whoever wants to shows up at a local train shop and goes to lunch together. The core group is about 8 guys and the number at lunch varies from 4 to 18 on any one day. The topics of conversation range from current events to politics to the technical details of how the NCE radio works. But because we all have model railroading in common - even if we aren't all in the same scale - and, for the most part, are all using DCC ... it's natural that there are some discussions at the table every week that are about DCC. Hence the name "The DCC Lunch". Even if you don't have such an enthusiastic and active DCC group in your area ... you'd be well advised to figure out how to "hang out" with some other guys who know more about DCC than you do. ... and if they are all using one system ... it's probably a good idea if you are using the same one ... even if it is just one guy. So ... climb aboard the ride, pick out a horse to sit on, and have a ball with the rest of the escapees from the "model railroad DCC" asylum! Jim P.S. Once you've chosen a brand - the type and size of system you should buy is a lot more dependent upon the number of operators you expect to be using it during an op session than it does upon how large it is or how much equipment you have. Those are also considerations ... but the number of operators is the key metric. One of the nice things about both Digitrax and NCE is that they have entry level systems that can be incorporated in the full layout as it grows. ----- And yes, I have a NCE PowerCab and love it for it's ease of use. I give the PowerCab throttle to my wife and she can use it without a manual. New casual visitors - same way. However I've seen and run on layouts who have great Digitrax or Lenz layouts, and they're very happy, and the operator throttles are easy enough for me. For what it's worth, some well known DCC dealers have stated that for starter systems based on most people's needs, their current sell rate is more NCE PowerCabs than they sell Digitrax Zephyrs. So it's OK to check it out. You might try calling some of these dealers, people say they are patient and give good advice, it may help supplement your other local research: Litchfield Station Tony's Trains Hope this helps!
Since you have framed the question between two Digitrax systems (and since I know Digitrax better than the other systems), I would go with the Zephyr for the size layout you have. The big thing with the Empire Builder is that programming is cumbersome because the heart of it is the DB150, which is really a booster and not exactly a command station. The Zephyr has all that, and there are several ways you can expand beyond that capacity later if you need more power, and you can still use your Zephyr then. Here's one page from the Digitrax website that talks about a possible upgrade path. On the other hand, if you are planning on joining a club and everyone in that club is already using NCE I would suggest getting NCE. The local knowledge base is way more important than any small difference in features, in my humble opinion.
Ok I think I got it. That's alot of info to consider. Now I have a couple of questions, first when comparing nce power cab and zephyr, can I run the walthers turntable from those, and second does the nce power cab have fairly easy programming thanks again for the great info Ben
For track power, the Walther 130' turntable with the indexing can be powered simply by using the track power outputs from the Zephyr (I assume the same for the NCE, as it is also a DCC system conforming to the essential principles) instead of using the outputs from a DC powerpack. The turntable has automatic reversing built-in so you don't need to worry about installing an auto-reverser, just keep in mind that there is a dead zone marked out on the thing for which you can't have any powered tracks leading up to it. For most people, this isn't an issue and is easy to work around. For controlling the actual rotation, I suppose you could run the turntable using a stationary decoder of some sort, but I have no idea how to do that. I use the stock controller on mine. Good luck! Adam
You can download the manuals for the latest version of the NCE PowerCab (V1.28) here: http://www.ncedcc.com/pdf/Power%20Cab%20Manual%20V1.28.pdf And for the Digitrax Zephyr here: http://www.digitrax.com/ftp/zephyrmanual.pdf http://www.digitrax.com/ftp/ZephyrQuickStartFinal.pdf Download them and compare... that will help you compare how easy the programming and documentation will be for you. Hope this helps.
If you do buy the Zephyr, there is a book I strongly recommend that is a much more compact piece of technical writing than the official Zephyr manual, which is not the high point of Digitrax's product line at all.
Ben, I can't answer the question regarding operation of a turntable except state that if it can be done purely with DCC then any system should be able to control it. As for the programming, if I can't have a modern decoder programmed with an initial 3-point speed table and running under a 4-digit address in around 20 secs with my PowerCab, I'm doing something wrong. The programming is straightforward and plain English - either enter or 1 are the usual choices (except where you programme the 4-digit number, of course). I can't comment on the Digitrax system as I haven't used it for programming and have had very limited exposure to operating the throttles. As John suggests, download the manuals and have a read of the items you feel are important.
