Okay, I have an area that is 6'8" long, I am looking at probably 32"-36" deep [36 is max]. N scale looking at this plan, I am wondering if I could add an outer loop with 13" radius curves that would drop down by an elevation change to a lower level that would just be for staging passenger trains. They would simply appear, run around town and disappear again. The lower staging area could be quite simple, just using 4 switches to give 3 lines to these trains. Please give me your opinions on this. Thanks
I have a feeling your grades would be to steep. If you wanted to drop down 2" and back up without any flat track in a 6 foot length the grade would be around 5% if I'm figuring right. If you started the down on the front of the edge right before the 180 degree turn on each end they you would probably end up with 3-4' that is flat on the lower level but woud still have the 5% grades. I'd personally work on putting the hidden tracks at the back of the layout behind some type of divider (could be a hill, trees, buildings, other). Sumner
Atlas #4 turnouts have a 19" radius. Before adding a third track for Passenger service, you may want to consider this... To fit your run-around tracks on a 36" wide shelf, the maximum inside curve couldn't be much over 16 inch radius from the diverging leg of each turnout and you should probably employ an easement into the tightest part of the curve by gradually decreasing the curve from 19" radius at the turnout down to 13" or 14" radius at the middle point of the curve in order to give the best reliability through the turnouts. (Sudden changes in radius from 19" to 13" sometimes increase likelihood of derailments on the turnouts.) Additionally, you won't have any straight portion on this inside track, so coupling and uncoupling will be more difficult (i.e., you will be more likely to knock cars off the track as you try to couple or uncouple on a curve). Assuming the straight leg of the turnout centerline is 1 inch from the edge of the shelf, the maximum radius of the outside curve could only be 17". The 17" radius outside curve will be a little better than the inside curve, but may still be a hair-puller when coupling/uncoupling.
Thanks, yeah, minimum radii are a bugger. I will be using Kato Unitrack, so this would be an even greater problem. Getting feed back like this is too valuable to ignore. [whimpers, I wanna big basement!]
A 13 inch radius 180 degree curve is 40. 8395 inches long. If you start your 2 inch drop at the beginning of the curve at the front of the shelf and end it at the back of the shelf, you will need (rise[or drop] divided by run) a 5% grade. This is very steep and pulling long passenger cars around a 13 inch radius will not be pretty--the long straight cars may tend to cover the inside end of the ties and expose the outside rail of the curve, and very long cars with short coupler shanks may even cause the cars to derail on such a tight curve. If you want a vertical easement into the grade instead of suddenly changing from 0% grade to 5% grade, start the drop at least 2 feet before the curve and continue it 2 feet after the curve...which will give you (2 inches of rise [drop] divided by 88 inches of run) a 2.27% grade.(Oops, Edited in Red: 40+48, not 40+24) What material are you using for the 3' x 6' shelf itself? 1/4" plywood will give you about 1 and 5/8 inches of clearance between the top of the rails on ties without roadbed and the underside of the upper level. If the shelf is thicker, or if you have 1/8" roadbed under the track, your clearance will be less...meaning your grade will need to be longer or steeper to get adequate clearance. I like Sumner's idea of hiding the Passenger train inside buildings or behind building flats, tree flats, or hills, at the back of the shelf. If the flats are just high enough to hide the trains, then it will be easier to clean the staging track or shuffle cars.
Very good points. This is why I am limiting my passenger cars to the shorter [Bachmann] length cars. I have decided against the lower staging level because of the experience and advice here. Gonna figure out a hidden track for the passenger trains, much simpler too! Thank you all again!
You may already be doing many of these, but just in case... If you plan to use Kato track and turnouts for this track plan, you may want to get the exact dimensions (lengths, widths, radii, angles) of various curves, straight track sections, and turnouts and then draw your plan on a sheet(s) of graph paper. When drawing your plan, be sure to allow for the width of track (distance between track centerlines must be greater on curves to accommodate longer cars extending farther over the ties on the inside of a curve), and centerlines of parallel straight tracks should be at least 1 and 1/8 inch apart to accommodate fingers rerailing cars, and both reaching and seeing between cars when coupling or uncoupling. It also helps to know the size and ideal location of trackside buildings, loading/unloading docks, etc. on your layout, so you can position your buildings to easily see when turnouts are properly aligned and that buildings are always positioned so they don't prevent you from seeing while coupling/uncoupling or from properly spotting cars directly in front of doors or past a clearing point. When initially planning track configurations on my layout, I have used building stand-ins and mock-ups, such as scrap wood blocks, foam insulation pieces, cut up cereal boxes, or even just a building footprint with no walls. As planning progresses, I'll test out track possibilities and specific building heights and shapes by roughly taping together a building from cardboard or cardstock with no details, or, if I have a kit that I want to use, I'll temporarily tape the walls together to see how it fits. I frequently use actual turnouts and sectional tracks when I'm trying to figure out the best track configuration. If you don't have any Kato turnouts or sectional track on hand, you can use the known dimensions (above) to make some full-size templates from paper or cardboard and then experiment with various combinations without having to spend a lot of money. How did you settle on a shelf depth of 32 to 36 inches and length of 6'8"? If depth is limited by your arm length and lack of access to the back of the layout because it is against a wall, and length is limited by walls and/or furniture, then hiding a track inside or behind buildings, building flats, tree flats, or a backdrop may be problematic unless the buildings, flats, or backdrop are light enough to be easily and repeatedly removed, strong enough to stand alone on a nearby (relatively) flat surface, and designed so they may be perfectly returned to their proper position, even if the buildings on either side are not present (e.g., they are both on a workbench being built or repaired).
Dave H thank you for the insights. I arrived at the size as that is what I will physically have to use [see pic at bottom] in the end of my enclosed porch. So when doing the initial build, I have on hand a bunch of switches, curves and straights, so I can actually lay it out on the board to try. Great suggestion for keeping LOS open to the switching spots. And for using the actual buildings or mockups to check LOS. The mainboard will be built of 1x3s screwed and glued together, then insulation sheets glued and screwed to that. Once I am satisfied with that I will attach the track and wire it before I attach any buildings, scenery, etc so I can actually stand the board upright and work on everything vertically. I am going to "hire" my great-niece to paint a backdrop for it, she is a really good artist and this will hide the brick. And we have decided to put windows with screens in the porch, so heating and cooling will be much easier!
Welp, I had been planning on using an Atlas turntable on the layout due to the budget, but last night won a fleabay low-bid auction on one of those Walthers ones. It's a little bigger and has to be cut out of the surface, but that's okay. But.... I have already sold 2 really nice steam engines that wouldn't have fit on the Atlas turntable! AAAARRRRGGGGH!
You said, "...already sold 2 really nice steam engines that wouldn't have fit on the Atlas turntable! AAAARRRRGGGGH!" Ouch! Similar thing happened to a local modeler: Finally sold a HO brass locomotive that wouldn't fit on his turntable after 2 years of unsuccessfully searching, and just weeks later, found a longer turntable and beautiful roundhouse...so he only bought the roundhouse. After screwing and also gluing insulation foam to plywood or one-bys on layout projects years ago, I always had a giant mess and lots of uneven edges that led to problems matching new and old foam edges whenever I tried to modify scenery or terrain at a later time. When I just screwed the foam to the plywood or one-bys and used only 2 or 3 small dots of white glue (NOT spray or liquid adhesives that would melt the foam) to attach the foam insulation to the wood, I could make changes MUCH more easily. FYI, Since the 1990s, I've primarily used 1/2 inch Homasote on 1/2 inch OSB panels for my shelves and helixes, and only green expanded foam (not blue or pink insulation foam) for all of my hills/terrain. It's a little more expensive, but I find it much easier to work with than the insulation foam. Photo Oct 14 2022, 6 08 08 PM by ppuinn posted Oct 14, 2022 at 6:16 PM Photo Oct 14 2022, 6 09 42 PM by ppuinn posted Oct 14, 2022 at 6:16 PM
I wanted to thank you all for all the help. I decided to try a version of Jon Allen's first G&D and it seems to be working. here's a link to the thread: https://www.trainboard.com/highball/index.php?threads/gun-creek-branch-of-the-gorre-daphetid.146632/
