I am relatively new into Z scale, and I live in a country where most people think that Märklin is the only modelrailroad manufacturer. This company has many admirers, and many people consider Märklin as the best manufacturer there is. But reading the topics on this forum, I learn about the mistakes Märklin makes in designing their Z scale equipment. As Europeans, we are used to enormous couplers, but when I saw the MTL knuckle couplers I felt ashamed. Then I realised that the trucks where out of place. And I read that the PRR coaches where not prototypical, as are the Santa Fe coaches. And the boxcars do not have the proper height, the hoppers are completely wrong, etc etc etc. This makes me wonder: why does the 'best manufacturer' of modeltrains make all those mistakes?
I don't think they were mistakes It looks to me like it was marketing strategy that never considered possibility that Z will appeal to "serious" modellers It seems to me that it was always treated as a collector's toy or table top christmas present, where robustness was more important than fidelity? I never considered getting into Z until I found MTL, AZL, Pennzee and others who got into Z, to model railroads as accurately as possible rather than to produce toys (I realise that even they are full of compromises - you can't scale nature, but at least they resemble the real thing from 1ft away , not from 10ft away) :shade: Chris
I think it's just a case where they just try to reach a "Close Enough" level of accuracy, then crank them out. After all, when you have no choice, you live with what you get. I suspect all their European prototype products are faithfull reproductions. I think they are getting better though, because the GG1 looks correct. They failed on the Bumble Bee mogul though, as the Bumble Bee is a Consolidation not a Mogul, so it needs 2 more drivers. Couplers and trucks? No explaination other than they were designed a long time ago, and function well enough with all their accessories, so updating them is probably cost prohibitive.
Thieu, You bring up an interesting question. First, let's separate their European line from their North American line. The Euro items are much more to scale and accurate. I am a big fan of European trains and my home layout is European based. I have been very pleased with the details, accuracy and look of most of the line. But I have also seen Marklin cut corners. The Nohab diesel was a disappointment. It was not too scale, though the new diesel rail car trains are very nice. As for the US line, historically, Marklin of Germany did not spend the time to accurately research and release North American items. The F7s are too long, the box cars just aren't correct. The gondolas, tank cars and cabooses are nice, but the trucks are set too far back. The steam locos are nice, but generic. No specific detailing. I think the passenger cars are good and they have been offered correct color versions. I also think times have changed. The GG1 for instance is awesome. It is perfectly too scale. It has the correct pantograph. It runs great, but is too light to pull long trains (easily fixed). Marklin Inc, the US subsidiary does provide Germany with accurate information, but too often, the factory progresses under their own perceptions. I do hope this will change. Marklin Inc understands the US market. If Marklin would keep going like they did with the GG1, the line will be much better off. As for the couplers, this is a legacy item from 1972. I do hope they can upgrade and change them to be more realistic. These big couplers are one reason the trucks on the US cars are pushed back and not in the correct spot. Rob
+10 to Chris re: AZL, PENNZEE, etc. I have spoken with many about this very subject and there is a simple explanation... Märklin never designed their North American offerings for the North American market. They designed their NA products for their large European customer base (primarily) and the smaller base here in NA. Thus, prototypical detail wasn't important. The trucks/couplers were a non-issue - these are "Märklin" so they should have Märklin trucks/couplers. If Lionel (hummm...) had come out with a Euro offering, especially in the past fifty years, I'm pretty sure the trucks/couplers would be the same as their "US" trains - for the same reason. Having said that, I believe Märklin is in an incredible position to kick some serious arse in the NA market if they would come out with an entirely new NA offering - complete with prototypical locos/rolling stock (and NA trucks/couplers). If MTL hadn't done away with their OEM program I'm sure Märklin could have been a huge customer! (D'oh!) Personally, I would love to see Märklin make the move. If they don't I hope one of our NA train co's jumps in. Someone should.
I agrree, if Marklin was to come out with some prototypical steamers for around the same price as the ones they already produce, they'd have a new demand!
For me personally I'm relatively happy with the lack off Z-scale items on the marked at this time. And that it's not always 100% accurate. That is one off the thinks that get me going and enjoy the Z-Scale so much. It's not the typical mainstream train stuff and there is few but very good builders that are willing to share their projects and know-how without any hesitations. I love scratch building and to maybe be one off the few first to do something new that's not been don before within this cool hobby off ours. So I'm not in any big hurry get new and accurate items on the marked just yet. But some nice new undercarriages and motors w/gears and trucks to use as bases for some locomotive shells projects would be appreciated. The undercarriage for the GP-35 has already inspired me to soon go ahead and try out some new project ideas I have had for some time now. Just one mans opinion
As for the couplers, they're like Rapidos in N. The F7 length and truck wheelbase are off because it uses the chassis from one of their German prototype engines. Maybe the freight cars have their truck spacing for the same reason? The GG1 is accurate because it's their first NA loco (as far as I know) to have a new chassis made for it.
Rapido's, yes, another irritating European product...... You can buy the most advanced and detailed N scale models, but with those strange large hooks it spoils the model. As I read the comments, I am very disappointed at Märklin. A company with such a famous status just can't produce items that are that bad. I know that they also have very disappointing European models, and I also know that every model is a comromise. But they ask high prices for their products, and I prefer a MTL boxcar of $ 15,00 to a Märklin boxcar that is a lot more expensive. Why can MTL produce a GP for $150 and Märklin a non-prototypical F unit for $200???
One thing I really like about all the Marklin products is their engineering! Look inside a Marklin steamer and you find a precision mechanism with steel gears, and contact wipers that still spring into contact with the drivers for great electrical pickup after being 20 years old! I recently purchased an old BR38 that was frozen solid with grease that turned into varnish. It took a bit of work to get it cleaned up, but afterwards it ran smooth as silk. Maybe it's 10 years old, but runs like new, and inspecting the wear of the drive mechanism showed it held up very well over the years. So I agree their models look toy-like, but boy do they hold up to the finest engineering I have seen in model railroading.
That makes it even stranger to understand, don't you think? They make a great inside, and a bad outside.
Marklin as I see it Marklin's major market is the European Market. The North American market is only a small portion of the Marklin world wide sales. For years Marklin has been manufacturing North American style Z scale models for the European market. The market has not been large enough for Marklin to retool their equipment for prototypical North American products. They just took their existing mechanisms and applied a North American styled body to them. The European collectors were satisfied and purchased enough to justify the cost of production. I don't know why but many North American Z scale model railroaders are not sophisticated enough to recognize the gross difference between the Euro style running gear under the Marklin North American superstructure and their continued purchase of these pseudo North American models are more then enough to persuade Marklin not to change. Now, the recent cash flow problems came up and the extremely small North American market does not justify any investment into any Z scale North American style models. We will have to see how the new Marklin management will handle the NA market. Marklin did come out with the GG1. I don't know why. It is not a model of a North American locomotive that will fit in any layout other than a Pennsylvania RR east coast layout with cantenary. The sales may have justified the production by Marklin but this goes back to the North American Z scale model railroaders not being sophisticated about North American Railroads. I guess that the romantic appeal of this model is enough to persuade many North American Modelers to spend money on it even if it does not fit logically on their railroad. The Marklin "Bumble Bee" doesn't seem to be Z scale but that also doesn't prevent its sales. The out of scale MT 0-6-0 steam also has its admirers. There must be a lot of "good enough" model railroaders. They complain about car numbers but do not complain about compliance to scale. This non sophistication by North American model railroaders in general has allowed many HO scale SP Freedom Train style steam locomotive to be sold painted with the Chessie Cat logo. I guess that this non sophistication is not limited to Z scale. Just a lot of bloviating by an old man. Bill H. El Toro, CA
You are right Bill, we take what we can get. AZL is the only ones producing any steam locos to prototype, but only SP steam. I like the models but since I model NP, I can't go for SP steam. I just make due with incorrect models to catch the flavor of NP models.
Maybe a lot of the buyers are collectors. The GG1 is the most famous electric of all time (in North America - Marklin actually bills the GG1 as "the American Crocodile" in their advertising copy for the Z scale model, showing that that Swiss engine must be the best-known electric in Europe). The PRR is disproportionately popular, even considering that, in its day, it had the largest roster of any railroad in the USA. (The Santa Fe had the most track.) IIRC, Lionel's model of PRR's 6-8-6 Turbine - a one-of-a-kind engine in reality - was one of their most popular for many years.
Huh? Don't confuse desperation with lack of sphistication. NA Zheads have put up with the Buck Rogers eurotrucks because that is what Märklin stuck under their NA products. It is like Lionel. You can complain, but what's the point? Don't think Märklin thinks they have the Yanks fooled. Like I said earlier - they never designed them for "us" in the first place. I disagree for one simple reason - this is supply and demand 101. The supply stinks (despite obvious demand - see all the forums for Pete's sake) so demand appears small. However, if someone took a few seconds to seriously watch the Z NA market they would see people screaming for steam, screaming for transition, screaming for modern rolling stock, screaming for anything and everyhing QUALITY Z. This should be a wake up call for MTL (and I think they have realized this - I hope) that the NA market is wide open for AZL, Märklin, Atlas, MTH and Lionel to get into and kick some butt. I think 98% of the regulars here would agree. I do agree with you about having to wait and see if the new Märklin management wants to make money or make more toys. (Hint, Hint Märklin) How's that for bloviating? (Just kidding about the Lionel and MTH thing - just checking to see if you were actually reading this. Actually, MTH would probably do a good job.)
Bloviating Ah-haaaaaaaa Just wanted to point out that Marklin wasn't ivincible and they cut corners to produce for the North American market and also that we don't want MTL to do the same. MTL was convinced by the internet that they would increase profits by selling an 'Undec" GP35 and it fell on it face. They are taking the new track manufactring business a step at a time so that they won't face the same problems that Marklin faced or for that matter that Ford faced with its "Edsel". Nothing worse than having a warehouse full of unsold "good ideas". Now I'll slink back where I belong, into silence. Bill H. El Toro, CA
As far as I know, the truck spacing on Marklin freight cars are only due to the coupler design. Even some of their euro rolling stock have their trucks displaced inwards when looking at the prototype (for example their coal/iron squared hoppers). As a beginning, we should imagine Marklin rolling stock and locos offered with a choice of couplers (Marklin and MTL/Kadee compatible), like they do in their US HO line, and like MTL do in their Z scale releases. Dominique
You mean as MTL DID in their releases. Starting with OCT 2006 the Marklin style couplers are no longer available on ready to run cars from MTL. Randy
Bill - I wasn't bustin' your chops. Side note - don't mistake MTLs pace as thoughtful strategy. They are simply slow. If they don't get tuned in and tuned up in time one of the other players will make them pay for it. Personally, I hope they get their act together and seriously ramp up. I have heard nothing but outstanding things about Joe D and I personally own $$$ worth of MTL N scale rolling stock - so I am fan. Just a frustrated fan.
