Who models in other large scales and what is it?

paintjockey Apr 4, 2010

  1. paintjockey

    paintjockey E-Mail Bounces

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    The title is a tad bit confusing, but seeing large scale trains are all lumoed into "G" I'm curious as to who models in other large scale sizes?

    I for one run "F" scale trains which are 1:20.3, narrow guage to be exact so Fn3.

    If I remember correctly (and I prolly don't) the scales are:
    G15 (pretty sure I got this one wrong)
    F - 1:20.3
    G - 1:22.5
    ? - 1:24
    ? - 1:29
    #1 - 1:32

    all these run on the same 45mm track. Sad really, they didn't change track sizes and keep the trains all the same scale so you could run mainline steam and have a narrow gauge logging line that really fit for size and scale.

    At any rate just curious to see what others are doing.

    Terry
     
  2. EMD trainman

    EMD trainman TrainBoard Member

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    It seems you may be a little confused.

    Yes Fn3 is 1:20.3 scale ratio
    1:22.5 is LGB G scale ratio
    1:24 is also G scale, the USA Trains American series, Aristocraft Delton series and Hartland Locomotive works uses this scale ratio
    1:29 scale ratio is also G scale, The USA Trains Ultimate series, Aristocraft and now Accucraft's new AML series is this scale ratio.
    1:32 scale ratio < here is where you are confused. Yes MTH trains calls their 1;32 scale ratio Gauge 1, but actually it's a misuse of the word since how it's still G scale and not really Gauge 1. Gauge 1 is is used to describe track but I guess everyone has thier own meaning for each word or phrase which makes G scale confusing even today. 1:32 scale ratio is really known as "Fine" scale, some knick named this scale ratio museum scale. Accucraft makes some nicely detailed mainline trains in this scale.

    Also on the subject of track didn't change for the different size of trains between modeling for narrow gauge and mainline railroading..... You are correct if you were to state it doesn't change for the G scale people.

    You would be mistaken to make that same quote for the F scale people. There is a F scale which runs on 70.64mm track and is used to model mainline trains. There are however no commercial products available for F scale so track and trains all have to be scratch built. Fn3 scale trains which are 1:20.3 scale ratio run on Gauge 1 track which is 45mm, many commercial products are available for this scale. F scale is the only Garden scale train that does have different size tracks for mainline and narrow gauge trains. I saw this first hand at the Accucraft display last year at the East Coast Large Scale Train Show in 2009.

    Picture 1 Shows The F scale train which was scratch built in the back ground
    Picture 2 is the F scale mainline box car
    Picture 3 shows the 45mm gauge 1 track merging into the F scale 70.64mm track.
    Picture 4 gives you a better idea of how much bigger the 70.64mm track is on this dual gauge track. The inside rail is 45mm and the outside rail is 70.64mm

    All 4 pictures were taken from the Accucraft display
     

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  3. DragonFyreGT

    DragonFyreGT TrainBoard Member

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    GN15 is G-Scale trains that run on HO Scale track. I.e. Mining operations. My Layout incorporates such a setup. Ozark Miniatures Produces their own line of GN15 Mining equipment.
     
  4. krs

    krs TrainBoard Member

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    That scale/gauge discussion comes up over and over again in Large Scale.

    For one thing, scale and gauge are two totally different things - I hope everyone understands that.
    Assigning a letter of number designator to a scale is totally arbitrary. Just makes it easy to refer to what one is modeling. Rather than say I model in 1"87 scale, one says, I model in H0 scale.
    Each scale really needs to be referred to by a unique letter and that is exactly wehat was done for all model railroad scale except Large Scale when Aristocraft and USA Trains arrived on the scene.
    In the smaller scales, the main letter refers to the scale of the model and the suffix refers to the relative track gauge - no suffix = standard gauge prototype, m suffix = meter gauge, n3 suffix = 3ft Narrow gauge etc.
    If you check all the smaller gauges, you will find that different scale models sometines also use the same gauge model track but nobody dreamt of calling them the same.
    TTn42 (TT scale on 42-inch narrow gauge track) scale uses the same model track gauge as N scale, Nn3 scale the same as Z scale for example.
    1:22.5, 1:24, 1:27 (piko and LGB standard gauge), 1:29 should really all have different scale designators and NMRA made efforts for several years to get some agreement but eventually failed.
    Today, you will see that G-Scale doesn't even exist!
    At least not as far as the NMRA is concerned - they threw in the towel, picked LS as the letter designator and just defined the scale as "varied"

    One might ask - What's the difference if G-scale or LS scale covers all scale ratios from 1:22.5 to 1:29?
    Well a lot of train equipment fits together reasonably well, that's because boxcars also come in a wide variety of sizes and different heights in the prototype and people mix narrow gauge with standard gauge, but take other accessories - people, houses, automobiles etc. You may well find that a doorway is to low for the person to walk through or a car is too small for a person to fit.

    When LGB started in 1968 they decided to give their 1:22.5 scale models running on 45mm track the "G" designator. I think if NMRA had been on the ball with a bit forward thinking and picked it up in their standards at that time or even 10 years later, we wouldn't have this confusion today.
    Once you're in the hobby for a while, you know the ins and outs of this whole scale business but it's tough for newcomers who used to model in the smaller scales.
    I have had many cases where people new to the hobby order a "G" scale loco and then find out its size doesn't match the rest of the equipment they have.

    I won't go into MTH - that's another special case, but as far as #1 Scale is concerned, that is a valid scale and has been around since the late 1800's, equipment mostly made by Marklin.
    There is really no such thing as 1 gauge or H0 gauge or G gauge for that matter.
    If you don't believe me take a look at the NMRA or NEM standards, H0 scale (1:87.1 to be accurate) equipment is available to run on 16.5mm, 12.0mm, 10.5mm and 7mm gauge track - which one is H0 gauge?

    So what paintjockey posted is really correct.
    "G" scale should be reserved for 1:22.5 scale and as NMRA now has decided, the rest falls under "LS"
    Does USA Trains or Aristocraft actually refer to their equipment as "G" scale?
    The boxes I have and the ads I have seen always state 1:29 scale, sometimes adding 45mm for the track gauge.

    But to answer the original question, I run Meter gauge prototype models like RhB and Harz simply because the scale (1:22.5) and the track gauge (45mm) are a correct representation of the Meter gauge prototype.
    I also started in this hobby before Aristocraft or USA Trains even existed.
    I still prefer narrow gauge equipment but today I would seriously consider running USA Trains equipment since it's much more reasonably priced.
    Not that I'm complaining - my LGB has been appreciating in value where older models sell for three and four times what I paid for them - not that this was a consideration when I bought them initially.
     
  5. EMD trainman

    EMD trainman TrainBoard Member

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    krs, I haven't kept up on the ever on going confusion and arguements for the years past of what scale ratio should be officially G scale. I didn't know that the NMRA finally made a official decision on that subject. This would probably be why that USA Trains and Aristocraft now ink stamps the boxes 1:29 scale instead of G scale. I also didn't know about Marklin Trains having Gauge one back then. I only seen track refered to as gauge 1 before MTH came along and started using the same terminology to frefer to trains.

    At any rate 1:29 scale ratio is very popular due to the many early diesel era to modern era trains that are available currently. As the newer generations get into the hobby, I think in my opinion the 1:29 scale ratio market which focuses on this era will only grow. I can see in the futre however as time goes on, kids growing up and getting into the hobby will want monorails and bullet trains. My nephew loves monorails, but only Disney seems to make them. Maybe one day there will be more accurate models of these made like how USA Trains and Aristocraft gave us detailed and accurate diesel era freight trains
     
  6. krs

    krs TrainBoard Member

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    There is a bit of a write up about Marklin and gauge 1 on the wiki:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Märklin

    Gauge 1 goes all the way back to 1891.
    They used "gauge" as the designator then because the scale for trains that ran on 45mm track varied somewhat - somewhat the same situation we have today except that the range of scales that use 45mm track wasn't nearly as great.

    Just thinking about this a bit more - it's really interesting that NMRA decided to give 1:20.3 equipment running on 45mm a letter designation but not 1:29 equipment running on the same gauge track.
    I would think that there is more 1:29 scale equipment around than 1:20.3 scaleequipment.
    I wonder if the logic to do that relates to the scale/gauge accuracy - 1:20.3 scale equipment on 45mm track accurately represents the prototype running on 3-ft gauge track whereas 1:29 equipment on 45mm doesn't represent any prototype accurately.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 5, 2010
  7. DragonFyreGT

    DragonFyreGT TrainBoard Member

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    Yes, but LGB goes back even further then 1981. According to wiki LGB Was producing G-Scale trains in 1968, almost 20 years before Marklin. They started in what became 1:22.5

    Gauge 1 as it is put, was being used in Europe long before Marklin. Mostly scratchbuilt. 1:29 was designed to bridge the gap between 1:24 and 1:32 as producing 2 lines in those scales were becoming costly. Or so the story goes. 1:29 for the most part does match up with 1:24 and 1:32.

    But we've forgotten someone in "G" Scale. What about 7/8" Scale on G-Scale Track? Some of the best layouts I've ever seen, including Peter Jones, was 7/8". It's really beginning to gain in popularity.

    EDIT: The NMRA Began using "F" after the Garden Railroad Association started using "F". We have our own group standards for our scale because the NMRA for the most part ignores us.
     
  8. peteshoulders

    peteshoulders TrainBoard Member

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    LS

    So really to be correct I should now join the LS group now as I use 1/29 equipment,

    Or is there another obstacle on the line?
     
  9. krs

    krs TrainBoard Member

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    Sorry, I transposed the two middle digits - that should have been 1891.

    I actually had some correspondence with Lewis Polk when Aristocraft first came out with models in 1:29 scale - well close to that since their original models in that size were not exactly to scale. The scale chosen had nothing to do with modeling at all, it was strictly a business decision to make the standard gauge boxcars Aristocraft was introducing the same physical model size as the narrow gauge boxcars from LGB that people were running at the time. That way an Aristocraft boxcar could be coupled to an LGB boxcar and they would look OK together.
    Couple an MTH (1:32) boxcar to a 1:29 boxcar or use an NTH loco with Aristocraft or USA Trains equipment and you see what I mean. Polk's Hobby way back when, before Aristocraft, was a major LGB distributor in the US.

    Yes - that was unfortunate that NMRA didn't take Large Scale or Garden Railroading seriously for many years at the beginning. There are also at least two more "G-scale" or better 2m scale standards in continental Europe that people have followed for years. All of those are a bit different.
     
  10. EMD trainman

    EMD trainman TrainBoard Member

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    Just thinking about this a bit more - it's really interesting that NMRA decided to give 1:20.3 equipment running on 45mm a letter designation but not 1:29 equipment running on the same gauge track.
    I would think that there is more 1:29 scale equipment around than 1:20.3 scaleequipment.
    I wonder if the logic to do that relates to the scale/gauge accuracy - 1:20.3 scale equipment on 45mm track accurately represents the prototype running on 3-ft gauge track whereas 1:29 equipment on 45mm doesn't represent any prototype accurately.[/QUOTE]

    Yes, that is my understanding about F scale. 1:20.3 scale ratio is the most accurate scale ratio to model narrow gauge trains in. I also understand that 1:32 ratio also known as "Fine" scale was the most accurate scale for mailine railroad models. Accucraft is one of the many who use this scale for mainline railroads.
    1:29 scale ratio is not a accurate scale ratio and would never be recognized by the NMRA.
    However in my opinion 1:32 scale ratio is too small and I think thats why 1:29 scale ratio has taken off like it has because it is just the right size for the early to modern diesel era modeling. When you have Manufcaturers who make NMRA approved models such as Accucraft making a seperate model line up just for the 1:29 scale ratio market called the AML division, that should tell you how well that market has taken off. Kern Valley models also now gives you a choice in either 1:29 or 1:32 scale ratio. For me 1:32 scale ratio is too small. I'm not a rivet counter so perfection in ever aspect is not all too important as long as it doesn't look too toy like.
     
  11. EMD trainman

    EMD trainman TrainBoard Member

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    This is the first I ever heard of "LS". What is this LS designation, does the letters mean anything? How did the NMRA come up with this designation? Now you caught my curiosity.

    To me 1:22.5 to 1:32 scale ratio will always be G scale.
     
  12. krs

    krs TrainBoard Member

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    Sorry to disagree again.
    You can't just make a blanket statement like that.
    1:20.3 scale is only accurate if the prototype is a 3 ft. narrow gauge railway. And it's Fn3 when you mean narrow gauge.
    If the protoype is a meter narrow gauge railway then 1:22.5 scale is the most accurate.
    And if the prototype is a 2 ft narrow gauge railway, then, if you use 45mm track, the most accurate scale is 1:13.5.

    Why do you think Bachmann US narrow gauge ended up with such an odd scale ratio? They stuck to 45mm rack and scaled the equipment rather than pick a scale that made sense and create a new track system.

    Fn3 is a relatively new scale designation, so is F scale - came up at the NMRA standards group only about ten years ago if I had to guess.
    The standard gauge version of "G-scale" (which in a modeller environment is really 2m) is 2 scale (often called 2 gauge in continental Europe and 3 gauge in the UK) are trains that are scaled 1:22.5 and run on 64mm track.
    There is lots of commercial equipment available (as compared to F scale) some of which you find on the GartenBahn Database by searching for 64mm (sorry!) and there are also 2 gauge (or II gauge) clubs like this one:
    IG Spur II
     
  13. krs

    krs TrainBoard Member

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    I only found the "LS" designator a few days ago when I looked at the NMRA standards to see what the latest story was of the whole scale discussion that has been going on for the last 20 yars or so.
    The previous version of the proposed NMRA standard had a half dozen combinations of scale and gauge shown with various letter designations covering 1:20.3 to 1:32 but it seems in the end they decided to just create the designator "LS" and not define any scale just the gauge of the track.
    The gauge tolerances btw, at least last time I looked, were different in the NMRA spec compared to NEM, the UK Garden Railroad spec. and the two German specifications I could find.
    Oh - I assume "LS" simply stands for "Large Scale".
     
  14. EMD trainman

    EMD trainman TrainBoard Member

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    Yep, I used the wrong terminology myself, it is Fn3, I must have been tired when I wrote that. I have seen 1:22.5 scale here in the USA run on 45mm track, most of them are kitbashed however. It's funny how things are different on the other side of the world. I don;t think there is any gauge 2 here othe than the 1:22.5 ratio that runs on 45mm track, but I could be wrong, never seen any. At least nothing that advertises it as Gauge 2.
     
  15. EMD trainman

    EMD trainman TrainBoard Member

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    _________________________________________________________________________

    ok, now the LS designation now makes sense. It has been a on going battle for years like you said if and hopefully it gets straigtened out. But now the public will get even more confused because we used the simple term G scale for years to cover just about everything in the scale ratio of 1:22.5 to 1:32. It took a while to get the F and G scale seperated and some people still think Fn3 is G.

    I'm glad this subject came up and think we all learned something. Right now USA Trains and Aristocraft are just simply pad printing 1:29 scale on thier boxes. I think that printing scale ratios on the box is the better idea than printing LS, F, G Gauge 1, Gauge 2 etc. By using scale ratios instead would keep people from being instantly confused by the new NMRA ratings. I think for the most part, most of the manufacturers here are just simply printing the scale ratio on the box with a couple of exceptions, like MTH. Bachmann also now prints 1:20.3 on thier new Fn3 line up.
     
  16. DragonFyreGT

    DragonFyreGT TrainBoard Member

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    It's really Ironic. The NMRA Doesn't show any sign of care or support for G-Scale yet they insist that we should use their standards for track. Isn't this the very reason the Garden Railroad Association was formed? To form our own standards since the NMRA didn't give any thought or care to Garden Scale?
     
  17. paintjockey

    paintjockey E-Mail Bounces

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    7/8ths scale was what I meant when I typed out Gn15.

    I should have been more clear in my original post i was refering to mass produced items on 45mm track so in my mind I left F standard scale out (although there is someone producing it now) i just have a problem getting my thoughts to my finger tips sometimes. :) EMD trainman, that layout you refer to isn't the Accucraft layout it's the Warrior Run Locomotive Works modular layout.

    I was informed the reason the NMRA won't designate a letter scale to 1:29, as previously stated, was due to the fact that it is not to scale. But, to each their own if you like it, run it. I like U.S. narrowguage so i chose Fn3. I for one do not like the mismatch of scales when running. I'm not a rivet counter but 1:22 equipment doesn't look good with anything but 1:22 and 1:29 and 1:32 do not look good to my eye, but that is me.
     
  18. EMD trainman

    EMD trainman TrainBoard Member

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    I run all 1:29 scale ratio trains.

    I agree with DragonFyreGT that the NMRA has left us G scalers out in the dark for so long. I like the way the manfacturers rate thier products now which is by the scale ratio like a diecast model. I think this is the least confusing and best way in reality to rate trains from 1:22.5 to 1:32 scale ratios. The Garden Railraod Association did help us G scale people out the best and still do. I pay more attention to what they say than the NMRA.
     
  19. krs

    krs TrainBoard Member

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    Indicating the scale on the box is certainly a good idea, don't know when USA Trains started doing that.
    I still have a number of cars which have no indication on the box what scale the product is that's inside.
    But indicating a scale on the box also means that the product inside has to be that scale or very close to it - that leaves out LGB and Piko for instance where the scale varies in each of the three dimensions and by product type.
    Very little of LGB is actually 1:22.5 scale. Even the original Stainz is closer to 1:19 and RhB equipment is typically around 1:24, but it all goes well together...............well, except of course that the Stainz never ran on Meter gauge and neither did a lot of other LGB Models - Piko standard gauge models are around 1:27 scale, same as LGB standard gauge models except for the Piko cars built using the old MDC molds which are 1:32 scale.
    People who stick to USA Trains and Aristocraft can at least be reasonably certain that all those newer models are close to 1:29 scale.
     
  20. EMD trainman

    EMD trainman TrainBoard Member

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    USA Trains and Aristocraft just started printing scale ratios on thier boxes in 2009. I have a couple of newer USA Trains with the 1:29 scale ratio printed on the box and I believe the new Aristo coal hopper has 1:29 scale printed on it's box also. They just started doing this on thier own.

    As for LGB, that has been my biggest complaint, they say thier scale ratio is 1:22.5, but thier woodside box cars for instance aree closer to 1:24 scale ratio, just put one next to a USA Trains American series 1:24 scale ratio woodside box car and they are close to the same size if not exact. The modern Rail Box road name box car I have is the same size as the USA Trains 50ft box cars, so it looks right at home in that train. I think the caboose was the only freight car they had that may have been really 1:22.5 scale ratio as especially the Queen Mary series, it was big.

    As for LGB, the Modern box car in the Rail Box road name is the only LGB item I have. I have been wanting USA Trains to make one on thier 50ft box car, but they won't because they made it on the American Series simulated steel box car and it was a flop, they didn't sell well. USA Trains has to understand people want these in the 1:29 scale ratio now, not the 1:24 scale ratio. I'm still working on convincing them, but it's hard when the Rail Boxes sit around on thier shelves in the other style. So this is why I bought the LGB version. I no longer own any Aristo Frieght cars except for the Rio Grande orange caboose..
     

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