Well, we tried the laytex but with our legs rubbing together when we walked, it built up static electricity :lightning:& kept blowing the DCC units.
S.... I have been looking at your plan for a few weeks, and I love the concept. But I don't understand any of the execution. There are too many dead ends and access problems. First, you must understand my philosophy on track planning: a true track planning "artist" will not merely copy a map but take the information from a map and convert it so that all things appropriate fit in the desired space restrictions. It is, in my opinion, better to make a plan that "works" than a plan that is an exact copy. So, on your plan the most glaring problem is getting a train from staging to the yard. If you connected the yard lead to the street tracks it would allow a longer "tail" for switching. Or you could simply reverse the yard ladder and what I think is a set of engine terminal tracks so that you create the desired push-pull from staging. The other siginificant question I have is about the middle track in the streets...at both ends the track has a T.O. that leads to "nothing" and has no real purpose other than aesthetics. Of a little less concern is that most of your industries have room for only 1 or 2 cars if fouling the T.O.'s is not an option. I know that your prototype had many of these, but you might want to consider lengthening one or two. I will post a separate reply with drawings... ~Donovan in Dallas
I have greatly simplified many of the structures. I also left some of my other concerns off of these drawings. But to get you to see what I meant I drew the following... I hope this helps. I think your plan has a lot of merit, I just am afraid that it won't work the way you want it to. I wish I could sit down and go over this with you. It is a lot easier to show you the trouble than to explain it over a forum. But I did my best. D in D
How many cars can those storage tracks hold, and what is the radius of the curve coming out of the yard? I'm trying to understand the scale of it all as it isn't very clear how big this layout is to me. It may be because the double rail rendering is making things look out of scale.
If you mean my drawings, I merely traced the original plan with some adjustments. Whatever was originally there is what I left as far as radius and storage capacity. My goal was not to present a finsihed plan. My goal was to illustrate where I thought the original plan had made some critical thinking eroors and how they might be re-thought. I expect that the original poster will have to re-render a finsihed plan on his own. ~D in D
Don G: You have done a nice job of selectively compressing the industries, track configurations and (to me) the signature feature of the Terminal RR’s Bremen block: A foreign RR’s double track mainline running right down the center of all those industries served by the TRR. Some points to consider as the track plan continues to evolve: 1. Page 94 of the TRR’s schematic system maps and the post-1998 TerraServerUSA topos and aerials of the prototype show the Lange-Stegman Fertilizer tracks were served by the Terminal RR instead of an industry job. (However, a mild dose of modeler’s license could produce an efficient track configuration that works for a dedicated industry loco, if you want it, just by repositioning the industry lead a little). 2. If you separate out the Phillips and/or Midland industry sidings so they are served by the TRR (as in the prototype) rather than as part of the L-S complex, you will GREATLY simplify track configuration, improve efficiency of movements, and eliminate congestion in L-S that will be a source of frustration. Serving Phillips and Midland by 2 sidings that cross each other as they go in opposite directions will give you easy access from the TRR left industrial lead instead of from the L-S complex. 3. The TRR came into the Bremen block from along the right side industrial lead, and had to cross the BN mains to serve the left side industries. All TRR moves across the BN main would be done quickly to avoid inconveniencing BN trains. The cars would only be on the BN tracks as they moved across the BN crossovers—never being left on a foreign railroad’s mainline while industry sidings were being switched. And the locos would only have gone on the BN main after obtaining permission from the BN dispatcher to make a run-around movement and when they had permission to pull all of the cars from one industrial lead across to the other. Even selectively compressing to a single BN main, these operational aspects should be preserved in your model to honor the signature feature of the Bremen block. 4. Check out how the S-curves through the crossovers were eliminated while preserving the signature features. ’T ain’t prototypic, but it’s a lot more reliable when pushing and pulling lightweight N-scale cars back and forth through crossovers. 5. Some modelers place a higher priority on including certain industries on their layout, even if it means putting them on a different side of the mainline to fit them within available space. Others place a higher priority on track configurations…if there were 2 prototype sidings coming into the industry from an industrial lead, then 2 get modeled, even if siding capacity is limited. Some prefer maximizing siding capacity, even if it means sacrificing a little on the prototype’s track configuration. Some want to model track and building positioning as close to prototype as possible; while others are comfortable adjusting modeled tracks and buildings for operator convenience of viewing and easier uncoupling access. Your layout…Your choices. Donovan in Dallas: I hear your concerns about the Lange-Stegman Fertilizer facility’s complex track configuration. The prototype was, indeed, very simple. However, there may be some minor adjustments to the facility tracks that could provide another operator job on this switching layout. It would be entirely plausible for the TRR to bring a cut of cars to the L-S facility’s inbound track, and pick up the outbound cars; and for the dedicated L-S switcher to pull cars from the industry spots, put them on the outbound track and spot all of the inbound cars around the various industry tracks. Spots might include 5 or 6 covered hoppers of grain or chemicals to load/unload, boxcars of bagged seeds or fertilizers, tanks of ammonia or other gases used in farming. I, too, usually try to maximize siding capacity as you suggested, but for this size and shape layout, the longest industrial runarounds and longest staging tracks that can be arranged will only hold about 8 to 10 cars. If Don G pushes 7 or 8 cars onto the right side industrial lead and then tries to switch industries with 2 or 3 cars on a siding, he may overfill the TRR’s industrial lead track and foul the BN’s main…not a good day.
MOPACFAN2007: Still learning the do's & don'ts of layout design. I understand that one is not trying to copy an existing map. You want just enough to create an interesting layout. I understand the freelance MRR concept, so my thought was when trying to work from a prototype you would try and stay close to the original. (I'm still learning) I see what you are saying about the staging and the access to the yard. I will be working on that. You say there is a turnout to no were on the middle tracks at each end. Sorry, I'm not seeing that? As for the length of the industry track, I'll look at squeezing a little more length. Dave H: 1. Had not thought of switching the fertilizer & yard. My mind was still thinking prototype. 2. I like the Phillips/Midland suggestion, does look more like the proto. 3. Defiantly agree 4. Understood and I'll look at that. 5. I take every comment into consideration. Still want to have some resemblace to the prototype and not afraid to adjust the layout. Would it make more sense to center the main lines and have a couple of the industries (Malinckrodt & Keisel oil) more parallel to the main line?
Don: The present arrangement (slightly more space in back of the 3 tracks than in front of them) will let you put more buildings in back and will imitate the prototype a little more closely in terms of angles of the sidings to the 3 parallel tracks. You will not have much room to put buildings in front of the 3 parallel tracks, and that is probably a good thing, because buildings may tend to obscure viewing turnouts and couplers and would need to be very low or easily removable to prevent damage from cleaning or the normal wear and tear that occurs when you frequently reach around a building to do lots of switching or hand throwing turnouts. Shifting the 3 parallel tracks to the middle will give you more space in front for Phillips, Midland, Strategic Resources, or Keisel. If you do make the shift, I'd encourage you to avoid tall structures completely. Also, consider having a little bump out beyond 24 inches so you can curve the tracks 6 to 8 inches into the aisle instead of parallel to the fascia. The track can be put on one side toward the outside end of the bump (mini-peninsula) and a structure on the other side without obscuring the track or hindering access to the siding on the bump OR to turnouts on the main part of the shelf. (These bumps could be extremely short versions of the peninsula I posted in my first variation on your theme.) With the narrower space behind the parallel tracks, you will need to run more of your sidings parallel to the 3 parallel tracks. IMO, adding parallel sidings to the parallel mains will be less appealing...I prefer seeing 2 sides of buildings at angles instead of 1 side square to the front of the layout; and I'd rather have buildings, roads, and tracks running at angles to the fascia and backdrop instead of parallel to them. I know some people don't agree, but, for me, having the buildings and tracks at angles to the fascia seems to break up the layout more and gives me the impression that the trains are going past more landmarks--covering more distance--than if the buildings were parallel to the fascia. Hmm...I wanted to present a balanced view of the strong and weak points of the different arrangements for everyone to consider, but my bias shows in my first plan...You'll notice I left my 3 parallel tracks a little toward the front of the shelf instead of in the middle. FWIW: I curved the upper (south) end of the tracks toward the back corner of the layout instead of parallel to the front so I could break up the long lines parallel with the fascia, as well as give more room for an industry toward the front of the shelf while still including the Ryerson siding. Tell me a little more about what you want for the Lange-Stegman tracks. I'd been thinking of it only as a fertilizer plant, potentially with some added sidings for more than just covered hoppers, and served by its own loco. You and Donovan have made references to a "yard" that seems separate from the L-S facility's 2 inbound and outbound tracks and its 2 loading/unloading tracks. Since the maps and aerials of the area are just a starting point for your dream plan, what would like to see happen in that area of the layout?
I do like the concept you have of the reversal of the yard & the fertilizer plant. I don't recall any other yard, I think one is more than enough for this size of layout. The design realy doesn't have to be complicated. Since this will be my first layout, I just want functional and a great design that doesn't deviate to much from the original. Everyones suggestions help has been fantastic, Dave H. the questions make me think more which is great. mopacfan2007, I've been working in computers for so long that my thinking is too linear. I see a map and that's how I try & place it on paper. So it's all a learning process on my way to a hopefully great layout, keep the comments & suggestions coming.
Updated 9-4-07 Okay, been awhile since I have posted anything. I am at plan 8e. Let me have some comments.
Don: :thumbs_up:You've done a wonderful job of arranging the industries along the vertical portion of the layout. WOW! 7 pairs of sidings plus the Lange Stegman tracks. This will yield LOTS of Terminal RR action/operation on both sides of the BN main. You have also managed to position buildings around all of the sidings in a way that leaves you room to reach to the sidings from the aisle so you can do coupling/uncoupling without much interference from buildings...Good Planning! Any particular reason you added the lumber company on the left side and Ryerson Steel on the right side of the street-running tracks?...not a complaint or criticism!!!...just an inquiry. I thought I had found the Ryerson siding on the east side (left in your layout) on one of the system maps, no mention at all of Proetz Lumber...but I could be misremembering... Did I miss Proetz somewhere else. (Or do you have other maps from the 1970s and 80s that show industries not present on the 2006 maps?) I really like the idea of trying to represent the Walters/Bremen Ave Yard in some fashion, because it will serve the overall goal of modeling a realistic representation of the Bremen Area so nicely, but I'm confused about how you'd like to operate the yard/staging tracks as you have them presently configured. Consider that there are differences in track configurations between the smaller satellite yards serving industries or interchanges in one section of a city (like the Walters/Bremen Ave Yard) and a large classification yard that handles all the trains/cars that arrive from/depart for other cities. Set up a "schedule" or simple list of the trains you'd like to run out of staging. Imagine how you have to move certain Terminal RR trains differently than others in order to serve a different cluster of industries along one side, the other side, or both sides of the BN main. If you want to set up a yardmaster's job, think about how trains will have to arrive/depart and plan your track configuration to support getting that job done...the arrangement will be different than if you are just doing staging alone without any attempt to represent rail yard operations. I'll see if I can work up something showing the differences.
Is there operational access to the yard from the yard side? I like the new design of the mainlines and how you have integrated the spurs.
Dave H. Thanks for the comments. The Lumber company is still on the east side of the main. Added an extra track to the spur figured I could have the east most spur for unloading and the west spur for loading. Proetz is located between Destrehan & Angelrodt St. (Last page of the 2006 industry maps pdf) Ryerson Steel, I'm going to have to drop that one off and redo it as Gunther Salt. Ryerson was too far down the line and Gunther was just the next block. As for the Bremen yard config, I'm open for suggestions. The one shown is just drawn up from my interpretations from what I have read and seen on other layouts. Remember, I'm still new at this. The more I work on the this layout the more I see that the yard is as much of the layout as the sidings. Gary R. Not sure what you are asking about the access to the yard. Sometimes I can't see the trees for the forest.
Looking at the plan, I am not clear how you will employ the staging yard. If it is hidden it seems too complex for normal operations without the need for fiddly fingers rerailing cars etc. also, the switch at the very end of the top main. where it runs of the back edge of the layout. Does this switch have enough lead space for engines to run into and out of? Otherwise it's looking good.
Don: I think Gary is asking if you can reach to the staging yard from the outside of the L or only from the inside...Didn't you say at one point (possibly in a different thread) that you intended working the layout from the inside of the angle only? You wrote:Ryerson Steel, I'm going to ...redo it as Gunther Salt. I thought Gunther Salt was a trailing point siding between facing point turnouts serving Cash's Metals and the 4 spot holding track to the south, and the Malincrodt Chemical sidings to the north. Couldn't Ryerson be renamed/reworked a little to represent Cash's Metals--that way, wouldn't you be matching the prototype a little more closely, too? Geeky's right about the track beyond the turnout in the upper right hand corner being too short to use...Look at my most recently posted version of the plan for a variation that addresses his concern. Don (Sysdfg) wrote: The more I work on this layout, the more I see that the yard is as much of the layout as the sidings. ABSOLUTELY! I personally lean toward modeling the Walters/Bremen Ave Yard as a smaller/simpler satellite yard rather than trying to represent a larger yard in a 1x6 foot space. If you configure the Terminal RR's right side industrial lead as a track that ties into the BN main near Rynerson and Proest so you can make a run around move to drill cars from the industrial lead directly into the satellite yard, then the yard can be extremely simple: stub ended! Stub-ending will also permit you to make the tracks a little longer too. You will still be able to set up a Yard Job that sorts or reorganizes cars within the yard...just use the right side industrial lead as the yard lead too. (I'd guess the prototype probably used their industrial lead the same way...but someone who works 1:1 in the St Louis area might have a better informed view about working the Walters/Bremen Ave Yard.) Is there some way you could squeeze in a 6 or 7 car long interchange track about where Strategic Materials was located in an earlier version--and do so without dropping any of the industrial sidings you presently have on this most recent plan? This would let you add a interchange/transfer run in which the Term'l RR picks up and spots traffic to/from BN. [Perhaps you could run a 3 to 4 inch wide shelf with track 12 to 15 inches into the aisle by Phillips.] If you can't, then maybe you could simulate such a transfer run by pulling a cut of 6 or 7 cars from one of the staging yard tracks to a track (also in staging) that represents the BN interchange. What switching jobs or tasks do you envision assigning to the various trains running on this layout? I'm guessing: 1. Right side (Western) Industrial Job--AM/PM shifts? Trailing point/Facing point turnouts? 2. Left side (Eastern) Industrial Job--AM/PM shifts? Trailing point/Facing point turnouts? 3. Lange-Stegman Grain Job (Bremen Ave Yard to L-S inbound/outbound tracks and back) 4. Terminal RR Main Yard Transfer to/from Bremen Ave Yard 5. BN Transfer to/from Bremen Ave Yard 6. Lange-Stegman Facility Job (Dedicated loco does all "in-house" car movements from in/outbound tracks to L-S spots and back to the in/outbound tracks) (Looking at the topo maps, system maps, and satellite pics...I'd guess L-S Fertilizer did NOT have it's own loco in the 70s and 80s, but you could certainly exercise your modeler's license to enhance operations on this switching layout--$0.02) (And that modeler's license could also be used to add a few extra sidings at L-S that could be served by the Terminal RR instead of by a L-S loco. Either way--dedicated loco or not--it seems reasonable to add some extra switching possibilities to a switching layout. 7. Terminal RR Bremen Ave Satellite Yard Job (sorts and blocks all cars coming into Bremen Yard from Terminal RR main yard, BN Interchange, and from Bremen Ave industries; sets up all trains that take cars out of Bremen Yard including cars to Bremen industries, to BN Interchange, and to Terminal RR main yard. Various combinations of all of the Terminal RR jobs could be done by the same operator wearing different hats to perform all the Terminal RR jobs; or by multiple operators, each handling just one task. Each job looks like it could take 5 to 20 minutes depending on how you decide to handle empties/loads/holds within the industries. (FWIW--Based on what others have told me about how it is done here in Peoria, Illinois): some (most???) RRs use satellite yards to take pressure off of the main yards. Blocking for local service is usually set up in a satellite yard. Depending on size of the yard, much of the blocking would be done by the loco that brings the cars from the main yard to the satellite yard...and that loco would often also be used to deliver the cars to the local industries, pick up cars at the industries and take them back to Bremen Yard, perhaps do some preliminary blocking, and then return the cars from Breman Yard to be classified/blocked in the main yard. Since locos usually didn't stay at the satellite yards, they often weren't serviced there (so few or no service facilities are needed). If the satellite yard was not too far from the main yard, then there would be little, if any, need for a RIP track or Car Barn within the satellite yard, either. PROs...please jump in here to clarify or correct these comments about satellite yards, as needed.
Thanks Dave, that is the question I was asking. Don, Geeky continued with what I was originally intending to reply. If the yard is behind a low backdrop and will not be operated from that side, then it's too elaborate for it's purpose IMHO. It can be simplified somewhat which will increase the length of the trains a bit, particularly those backing into Lange-Stegman. The plan Dave suggested (above) for the yard would be better suited for staging 'out of sight' with a crossover or two to allow returning loco/s to detach from their train and run-around.
Addressed some of the issues. At the top right, I do not have name for the 2 industries yet. More than likely Ryerson and Cash's Metals. Dave, it took me a little while to understand the importance of having a building at the top right (to hide the end of the tracks) Lower left (yard) simplified, also on my table it has an inch of foam which I can cut out to drop the yard a little further out of site.
I really really like it. A suggestion: On my layout I needed staging tracks. I like seeing lots of trains out on the layout so what I did was make three long spurs that act as staging and viewing tracks. All of my staged trains sit in plain site and help make my layout look busy. I am wondering if it wouldn't just look more impressive to have the staging be entirely visible. Most visitors wouldn't know it is staging and they would just assume it's a yard even though all of your trains have engines on them. Part of my reasoning for this is that when I go train watching, I usually see lots of trains sitting on the main and on passing sidings. There is a big junction downtown so everything just stacks up, sometimes three trains deep, all going one direction and waiting for their green light.
