Someone didn't get the maths right

digimar52 Feb 8, 2021

  1. digimar52

    digimar52 TrainBoard Member

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    Just saw this video on YT showing a string-lined UP train at Tehachapi today.



    I thought, this kind of error wouldn't happen anymore.
     
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  2. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Someone should be in a little trouble.....
     
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  3. Pastor John

    Pastor John TrainBoard Member

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    Especially bad at a busy choke point like that. How much money does it cost every hour that's blocked? An *ordinary* main line is something north of $10k an hour.
     
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  4. Doug Gosha

    Doug Gosha TrainBoard Member

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    "I TOLD you to use your abacus to calculate car positioning in that train and NOT your phone app!"

    Doug
     
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  5. Hardcoaler

    Hardcoaler TrainBoard Member

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    A few years ago, NS had several similar "string-lining" wrecks like this on Horseshoe Curve, all caused by empty centerbeam lumber cars on the head end of enormous Precision Scheduled Railroading trains. It amazed observers that it took a while for NS to catch on as to the cause. Amusingly, I later saw a video of a westbound manifest at Altoona heading toward the Curve with a crewman happily shouting from the cab window, "No lumber cars!" :LOL:
     
  6. Kurt Moose

    Kurt Moose TrainBoard Member

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    Ouch!

    If those autoracks were full, that's gonna' be real expensive!
     
  7. gjslsffan

    gjslsffan Staff Member

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    I am amazed this hasnt happened a lot more with the size of these PTC trains. They want to start running insanely long trains over the Moffat (PTC).
     
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  8. Hardcoaler

    Hardcoaler TrainBoard Member

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    Tom, are PTC troubles routine in your work? In listening to my scanner, PTC problems often delay departures from the yard in my area. Sometimes when the system refuses to reset, they even "run the wye" to put a troublesome unit in trailing position. Not surprisingly, air problems are an issue with colossal PSR trains.
     
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  9. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    This is something about which I have been wondering. And if true, what is the potential for losing control of a train which is under way?
     
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  10. Hardcoaler

    Hardcoaler TrainBoard Member

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    That's a good question on a mountain railroad. I was trackside a month ago in mildly rolling hills and as a long PSR train rolled past, I jumped when I heard a loud bang and a whooosh of air. The train ground to a halt. And all of this after a long departure delay from PTC!

    As I listen on my scanner, I find that our train crews are so incredibly patient with setbacks. They seem to take everything in stride with kindness to their brothers, Yardmasters and Dispatchers, and often throw some humor into the mix. I don't know how they do it.
     
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  11. HemiAdda2d

    HemiAdda2d Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    PSR trains are bad enough, but the air problems in extreme cold weather makes normal train movements a problem. I watched an autorack train leave Minot's old GN yard and go into emergency after going half a mile. They recovered the air, "fixed" the problem car, and tried again, this time making it 1500 feet, and both times blocking the CP main and lead to the old yard. They blocked that Soo Tower interlocking for a total of 5 hours before they recovered the air and backed the train into the old yard again to allow traffic to resume. As it turns out, if the crews would have followed division special instructions for extreme cold to cut train length and add a loco, they would have been out of town long by lunch time. As it turned out, the crew was relieved after the first emergency, and the the relief crew, after cutting 21 cars off and adding a unit, left after 1830. Funny how following the rules makes things work.
     
  12. HemiAdda2d

    HemiAdda2d Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    As I listen to the setbacks over the scanner, I don't know how they do it either.

    I remember one PTC nightmare (among other issues, the trainmaster assisting put the wrong unit number in the system, so it didn't communicate) double grain load blocking the Soo Tower interlocking for 4 hours, and the CP freight waiting for the circus the clear was waiting on a relief crew. They heard "BN said it would be about 10 more mins and things should be clear." The crew asked "is that ten railroad minutes, or real minutes?" The response was "probably railroad minutes; we'll see you in an hour.":ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

     
  13. Hytec

    Hytec TrainBoard Member

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    This engineer (computer systems, not front end.;)) wonders what the heck happened to WABCO's electronic brake control proposal that I think SP, maybe UP, tested years ago. Then we never heard of it afterwards.

    I suspect the Class-I's said "Too Radical", "Computers aren't reliable!", "Triple Valves Work Fine!", or something equally old fogey-ish. So now the Class-I's run PSR trains and wonder why 19th Century WABCO technology can't handle multi-mile long trains in freezing temperatures. Gimme a Break. :rolleyes:
     
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  14. hoyden

    hoyden TrainBoard Supporter

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    Coming right up! Compliments of the PSR (Precision Stringline Raliroading) and PTC (Precision Collision Technology).
     
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  15. gjslsffan

    gjslsffan Staff Member

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    I always liked the PTC (positive traction control) on the DRGW tunnel motors. The other PTC when it works, just slows things down, when it fails it can Very time consuming to get straightened out. Buts it is what it is.
    PSR concerns me more at this point. These DV west trains are very complicated to build under normal circumstances, They have to be built so that after any scheduled set-outs, the train stays in compliance, with placement and or tonnage requirements. Adding swing help and that increases the complexity, as it is sometimes you have to double 2 tracks together to make a train, and there is very limited head room to do that from the west/south end of the yard. To make 10000+ ft trains, your talking 3 or possibly more tracks put together. Basically all the work will need to be done by a switch crew from the east/north end of the yard and that always goes good. Then you gotta link up the power and all that, air test and all that as well. And if there are BO cars, well now we got trouble in river city. All this time you can have both ends of the yard tied up for who knows how long, and this is just for one train. By this time you prolly have short timers inbound, might as well start calling vans and relief crews. Oh yea now the crew on your outbound has too much time against them to make it now. Bearing in mind, this was all designed to save crew starts. And old head told me when I started. "Won't do you any good to get in a hurry around here, it's just a 12hr picnic and a bus ride"
    And they wonder why a guy has a drink or two.
     
  16. HemiAdda2d

    HemiAdda2d Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Tom,
    I'm not a rail, but know a few and see plenty of action that typifies exactly what you're saying. It's mind-boggling the RR sends almost 3-mile-long trains out of Minot, and it's relatively flat and straight. I cannot imagine that kind of train on the Moffat, with the compensated 2% grade, the nearly continuous curves, dozens of tunnels and everything working against you. If I understand right, when signal is lost from the remotes, they go into idle, essentially suddenly becoming dead weight or acting like a brake.:eek::eek: Electronic signals from the head end to the rear remotes failing in a place like South Draw, with 6 tunnels in less than 3 miles, a horseshoe curve and lots of vertical terrain to interrupt signals would leave a whale of a mess in the bottom of the draw. :( Sure, just because one CAN run a train that long with strategically-placed DPUs, doesn't mean they should or that it will be efficient, effective or anything else.:confused:
     
  17. minesweeper

    minesweeper TrainBoard Member

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    In Italy when we got our version of PTC it took years to tune the system (the ground and the loco sides) so it did not cause trouble. After more than 10 years, there are still some issues.
    The newer European standard ERTMS instead had a much smaller share of teething issues, and actually it is light years ahead in functionalities (also allows you to get rid of main track signals altogether).
     
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  18. 57A26

    57A26 TrainBoard Member

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    Distributed power consists don't immediately go to idle when they lose communication with the head end lead consist. They'll maintain the last command they received in power mode for 90 minutes or until comm is restored. They'll remain in the last command received in dynamic brake mode indefinitely until comm is restored.

    For both, it's possible to signal the remotes to go to idle by using the automatic air brake and making specific brake applications.
     
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  19. Hytec

    Hytec TrainBoard Member

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    A photo was posted a while back showing what happened when a DP stayed in Run 8 after the train was stopped. The photo showed the rail melted through the web to the foot under all 12 wheels. Don't know what caused this. There was no other information with the photo.
     
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  20. mmi16

    mmi16 TrainBoard Member

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    Those decisions are made far above the crew on the train. Those kinds of decisions are made by Division level management. It is not unusual for Division to specify something in Special Instructions and then have Division Management that is ON DUTY make decisions that are other than those specified in the Special Instructions that apply to the situation.
     

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