I was wondering what had happened to the PC book project. I hope that whoever completes it, also involves Dave Sprau. He has some excellent knowledge. Boxcab E50
Boxcab, Dave was very helpful and supportive during my research on the Milwaukee's Willapa Harbor branch line. I just got my inter-library loan copy of the book on Union Station. The end papers do indeed feature the front and back elevation drawings fo the station. While the image is sharp on a book page I doubt it will stay that way when blown up to 1/4"=1'. I will contact the authors and try to find out where they obtained the drawings, and hope it was not from Sound Transit (the book's sponsor). Bi-Polar Bruce
Well, time to eat a little crow. Today in the mail arrived a packet from Sound Transit containing 11x17 copies of several Union Station drawings. They are reduced from the originals, which are 1/8"= 1 foot, and 22"x34" (and therefore about Z scale in their current form), but the accompanying letter says they will make me copies of the originals for 15 cents/page. These are the remodel plans dated 1999, but a little photo research should allow me to identify any changes. Of course the next question is if the plans are available in digital form, but this hard copy is a big step forward. By the way, the book on Union Station prepared by HistoryLink, and published by Sound Transit which I obtained through inter-library loan is very nice. Of course the emphasis is on the 1999 renovation project, and the development of ST's relatively recent system. The early chapters do give a colorful history of early Seattle RR history. Oddly the Milwaukee's electrification is barely mentioned, although the Milwaukee's ski bowl gets plenty of attention. Nice photo of a streamlined Hiawatha loco from the midwest. Bi-Polar Bruce
Glad to know you're making progress. Hope you can get a set of pre-remodel plans. Books about the Pacific NW transcon RRs are often quite lacking in Milw history. The propagandists have done a great job of trivializing the CMSt.P&P. Where they mention this railroad, it's almost always the same repeated misinformation. Which tells me a lot about the author= Lazy. Quiz- Name the last major northern trancontinental to arrive in Seattle.... Boxcab E50
Kevin- The NP began operations reaching Seattle in 1884. The GN unofficially in 1891. (Officially 1893.) Milwaukee Road (CM&PS)= 1909. Union Pacific (OR&N)= 1910. Boxcab E50
Yes, they are I have to agree with you. I have to admit that I was a bit shocked just recently to learn that the Milwaukee Road made it all the way to the Pacific. You almost NEVER hear about them here in Portland. I am just young enough that I mostly only remember UP, SP, and BN operations here. Do either of you guys have any recommendations for good books or websites on the Milwaukee Road? I am particularly interested in the Pacific Northwest.
There are many web sites, having information about the Milwaukee Road. Unfortunately, most perpetuate some portion of the mythology, or outright lies, about Lines West, and the bankruptcies. Here is one of the best: http://www.trainweb.org/milwaukee/ Look for the article about Lines West. Sadly, the same is true for most Milw books. Which show a laziness at best, by authors. Whom it can often be seen, just did not take time to research. But found it expedient to simply repeat past quotes. Perhaps try reading: "The Nation Pays Again." By Thomas Ploss. Not sure who'd have a copy available. (First published mid-1980's.) Tom printed it himself. There were at least four runs, plus a "Supplemental Memoirs." Sadly, he passed away last year. About electrics, the Noel Holley books are excellent. The pamphlets by Bill Wilkerson as well. Then there is Electric Way Across The Mountains. (Excellent for a personal feel. Some historic errors.) There are many, many Milw books and videos available! Which is quite nice. You can spend a whole bunch of money, very quickly. Boxcab E50
I don't know enough of the history to know what the lies are. What's the real version? As far as the books, my wife owns a bookstore so I shouldn't have much trouble tracking most titles down. Thanks for the information! Adam
Well, such as the reason they built west. Survival. They were a midwest granger, surrounded and drowning in other similar companies. It was a time when merger was not the first thought. A time when people spent money, to make money. (Invested in their own future.) They sought out new business. The Milw had been looking west since the 1880's! The cost of building Lines West, is often vastly overstated. The cost of electrification. Was NOT detrimental. Was quickly repaid. And that lower number of annual operation dollars actually helped subsidize Lines East. For decades, as they put almost nothing into it. That they had no business along the way. Well, they did. Until management decided to get rid of it... That those many long miles weren't profitable. Remember, in most cases, a longer haul load, on your own rails, is a good thing. That their Olympian Hiawatha was the reason they lost money on passenger service. I have company data going back to 1930. There were only two years they didn't lose money on all paseenger trains. 1943, 1944. Very few of their trains were in the black. Mostly some commuter stuff. True for many other railroads. So shouldn't be singled out here. You'll find that they really weren't putting any money into Lines West. So, how could it be draining the system? The facts are that after March, 1980, the original core was to be 6500 miles. But ended up about 3200 miles, as they discovered their "error." All the money losers were branches, and more, back east. The financial figures exist. An amazing amount of documentation escaped destruction. Lines West subsidized Lines East for decades. The only thing saving the RR at the end, was sales of real estate, timber lands, out west. The list goes on... Oops! Sorry, Bruce! Didn't mean to hijack your thread. :embarassed: Boxcab E50
That is OK Ken. I guess a whole new generation of Milwaukee fans need an introduction to the controversies related to this railroad's history. Some of us have witnessed (or god knows participated) in some of the heated online discussions of this topic over the years. It often seems like there is no middle ground. Personally I think the erosion of RR business all across the country after WWI, and the resulting loss of milage suggests that areas like the PNW were overbuilt for the amount of business (hindsight). Railroads have always been a prime indicator of the country's economy (and politics). The Milwaukee always seemed to be out of step with national economic trends, and not in a healthy way. Delreth's book, although not strong on economics according to some people, is also probably a good place to start a study of the Milwaukee's history. MHRA has reprinted it now, so it should be available at a reasonable price. The Milwaukee Road's close association with the Union Pacific for much of its history explains why the two roads could share Seattle's Union Station (the NP and GN had the adjacent King Street Station). Much of the Milwaukee's line south from Seattle is now a UP operation. Lately I have been collecting UP history as an extension of my interest in the Milwaukee. I am finding that we are the forgotten corner of the UP world, with relatively little about their PNW operations aside from Asay's outstanding book. The merger issue you mention is actually a major subject in Milwaukee history, if only to consider what might have been. This leads into all sorts of interesting subjects which are not the focus of this thread, but worthy of discussion. Bi-Polar Bruce
Thanks for the background Bruce and Boxcab, Thanks for the background information. Histories for just about anything have inaccuracies or opinions passed off as fact. Don't we all know it. You just hate to see your favorite rail line get the short shrift of the story. I remember a few years back (late 90s/early 00s) there was a medium-sized flap in the news about Union Pacific's safety rule violations. My grandpa, an old rail then in his mid-80s, said that UP safety violations were not news. Then he told me a story about getting fired from the UP once. (And he doesn't launch into stories often.) He was a freight conductor and had gotten the call to come to the Albina Yard and head out to Hinkle on a train. He got there and they had made up the train with several diesel-powered reefer cars just before the caboose. He said that they needed to move the reefer cars further up the train before they could go. They told him to head out on the train as it was as there was no time. He said that time was not the issue, but that this was a serious occupational hazard (caboose filling up with diesel exhaust) and that it was also against the safety rules. They said head out on the train. He started citing chapter and verse from the rules. They said head out on the train or you are fired. He said that they needed to make up the train differently. They fired him. He went to the union hall and filed a grievance. It took a long time to fight it out, and he eventually went and got another job. Sixteen months later he was reinstated with back-pay, and he reluctantly went back. I would bet that if UP had an official version of this story that they would gloss over the safety violation and call it something like a labor issue. I guess this is only tangentially related to our original thread. Anyway, I don't know why railroads always get singled out for losing money. Just about every mode of transportation is a money-loser. We pay for our roads in part through gas taxes and they still need to be repaired all the time. The highway system is a big money-loser, but we accept that as the cost of doing business and being able to travel. Railroads, on the other hand, are held to a much tighter standard. That's why Congress has no problem approving billions for highways and then leans on Amtrak to "make money." The airlines get a multi-billion dollar bail-out and Amtrak has to look for a deal on baling wire and duct tape just to make basic repairs. I am all over the place with this. In short, I see what you are saying, and I want to thank you for getting me more of the back-story on Milwaukee Road. Adam
Looking at the UP line north of the Columbia River, although it is a good producer, it's not really considered to be part of the main line. More of a branch line. Their primary focus is east-west. Always has been true. Were it not for today's intermodal from Puget Sound, I wonder if they'd still run north of Portland? Boxcab E50
Here is a interesting rumor that I heard the other day. A few years ago BNSF put a chunk of NW branch's on the for sale block. One of them was the Sumas branch, from what I hear UP showed interest in the line as a way to get another Canada conection. Of coarse BNSF would not want that to happen and they still operate it today. I don't know how the UP was planing on getting from Seattle to Burlington. Anyways just a side thought on the UP North of Portland. Keep the MILW histort coming, us young'ins find it interesting. By the way while I sat at the west end of Easton siding yesterday for 4 hours I did a little walking on the MILW line, it is a pretty cool area, and would have been neat to see the NP/BN and MILW running side by side through that area. Kevin
The UP rumor was probably just that. Simply a foamer rumor. For just those reasons you noted. Amazing enough, there aren't a lot of published photos from the Easton area. Some. But not many. A couple of Ron Nixon views. Perhaps a Kinsey or Curtis picture. A few shots from near the end of time. Did you see where Cabin Creek Junction was located? Boxcab E50
Was that the little spur that came off for the loging operation? If so yes, there is now a telecom station were the switch was. Kevin
As part of this Union Station project I reread the last several chapters of Kurt Armbruster's Orphan Road book. He has quite a bit on the UP's move into Washington State around the turn of Century (1900). Less on the Milwaukee than the UP, but at least what he says about my favorite road is accurate. I am reminded that the first couple decades of the 20th Century were the high point of the corporate trusts. Many American business leaders could see that excessive competition in many industries was cutting into profits. The UP, for instance, made several moves toward building their own line north from the Columbia River, but ended up settling for trackage rights as far as Tacoma, a shared line with the Milwaukee as far as Black River, and a relatively short piece of their own track from there to Seattle. Early on they developed a very competitive passenger train, the Shasta Limited, along with the SP for coastal service from Seattle's Union Station to California. For many years the conventional histories glorified Teddy Roosevelt and the trust-busters. In more recent years the so called Robber Barons have been reevaluated. Reforms intended to curb their activities probably did about as much harm as good when it comes to looking after the public's interests, most notably in the case of railroads. Everyone likes to pay less for the things and services they want, but excess capacity coupled with rampant speculation can lead to radical deflation. This is pretty much what happened in the Great Depression of the 1930s. I think Kurt's book is an outstanding history of the rather complex circumstances of Seattle's early railroad development (up to about 1912). His style is both readable, and refreshingly free of the enterprise bashing I have found in the two HistoryLink publications I also read recently. After the Sound Transit sponsored history of Union Station I read another recent transportation history titled Moving Washington, sponsored by the Washington DOT, and prepared by HistoryLink. It's a useful chronology of transportation developments in the state, but is rather uncritical of public projects, and dismissal when it treats the earlier period of private enterprise. The only time I have stoped in Easton was during the MilWest Ellensburg convention several years ago. Not much to see there now, but I gather Easton was where the NP put on helpers for Stampede Pass during steam days. The contrast of smokey double-headed steamers blasting out of town, and the powerful, but relatively quiet Milwaukee electrics humming by on their way to Snoqualmie would have been interesting to witness before the diesels changed railroading forever. Bruce
Bruce- Yes. Easton was where NP helpers were added. Also, remember their Stampede tunnel size restricted what steamers would safely fit. Interesting to see the major contrast at that location. Milw essentially passed through quietly. NP had a major facility. A favorite photo is the Ron Nixon view of Milw Easton depot in WWII. With a boxcab freight being overtaken by a steam powered troop train. Boxcab E50
Bruce- The photo has been published at least once that I recall. Seems as though perhaps more. It's in the Steinheimer book "The Electric Way Across The Mountains." Many years ago, Ron gave me a copy of it. (His file number 8956.) BTW- The caption in the Electric Way book is misleading. The train pictured is pre-WWII. February 9, 1941. This should be available through the Museum Of The Rockies. Which has his collection. Also, another interesting facet of that picture- Note the unique cantilevered train order signal. These were found in a few places, electrified parts of Lines West. I know of examples at North Puyallup, Auburn, Easton, Haugan, and Superior. Would like to confirm any others. And why. All we can guess, is something to do with long tangents, and possible confusion with other nearby block signals. Boxcab E50
