I've seen many rural crossings on mainlines that have only a road sign, cross buck and maybe R X R painted on the road, but no warning lights or gates. I remember the first time I came up on a track in the dark and just thought it was some old siding and not a major main. Of course I slowed down and was careful anyway. It really shook me up when I realized that coming up to it in the dark at a high rate of speed could have meant I might have plowed into the side of the train without ever knowing it was there until it was too late. Don't forget locals tend to drive faster than someone like myself who was unfamiliar with the road to begin with. And I'm talking about a two lane road that is an important route, not a little back road. Anyone could have been distracted for a second and missed the R X R road sign. Then BOOM. I know this situation has improved over the years as far as getting in some gates and lights, but when accidents did happen at these crossings, who was the one to most likely win the lawsuit? Of course investigators from both sides would examine the evidence, but who won more than the other, vehicle or railroad lawyers? Any thoughts on these kinds of accidents? Oh, and not only now but what about long before crossing lights were invented?
I find it hard to believe that someone would just not know that there was railroad crossing there. You can not miss that crossbuck for. at least around here in the Galesburg area they are reflective not to mention your headlights would catch them. White on a black background has a tendency to show up especially at night a white croossbuck and the blackness of the night. If you don't see that they have that round yellow sign that symbols for a railroad crossing. Everyone should almost stop and look before they proceed. especially if you don't now the area. in the case of your locals they probably know what the traffic is like around there but still could blind sided by am unexpected frieght. I still don't see how people could miss a train though they have bright lights and I think something like that would catch your attention. [ 08 June 2002, 22:03: Message edited by: Jack Doran ]
It is my belief that due to the increasing stupidity of drivers today, the railroads have to foot the costs of people neglecting their responsibilities when at the wheel. There really ARE people who believe that a 10,000 ton freight train can stop on a dime. And as for people weaving around gates at crossings, I see it every day...
First of all, this was the first time I had ever encounterd a rural crossing with no lights on an unfamiliar road. Also not the last. It was surrounded by cornfields and came up rather suddenly at 5am in the morning. As I said, if I had reached down to get something or turned away for a moment I may have missed the yellow RR sign. Going at 50 MPH and suddenly seeing a crossbuck just ahead may not give anyone time to stop. Headlights don't shine a mile down the road. Freight trains are rather dark when the engine is already 50 cars past the crossing. Not everyone is bright eyed at 5am. Anyway, my question was who would be at fault in an accident like this?
My guess would be the driver of the car. at least here in illinois there is this little traffic citation called failure to keep your car under control. that is the loop hole for the insurance companies so that it pins the blame on the driver and the state gets rich to. johnnytrains the railroads are trying to brighten up the side of there boxcars with reflective tape for just those type of accidents your talking about. bvut there are still a lot of freight cars out there that does not have this. IMO i think the railroads are trying really hard to think of the drivers on the street it is just some people don't care and ignore all this safety equipment. [ 09 June 2002, 17:11: Message edited by: Jack Doran ]
If the crossing were completely unmarked, I'd say the railroad was at fault. If the visibility were limited due to excessive vegetation on the right-of-way, an accident victim (or the survivors) may have a case. If there's a RR crossing caution sign, followed by crossbucks, and visibility is good, the driver doesn't have much of an excuse. At night, best thing to do is slow down when approaching such a crossing out in the middle of nowhere.
Here are three examples that happened to me. We hit an auto at a crossing that was protected by a crossbuck and a round R.R. sign about 600 ft. before the crossing. The locoal newspaper was covering the accident.The reporter made the statement to me that it was an unprotected crossing. My answer was,if this was a stop sign in the country would this mean the intersection was unprotected? When the accident as reported in the paper, it did say it was protected by a crossbuck and a round sign. Another time the auto almost got stopped,but we took the bumper off. The railroad payed,because two elderly women said the headlight was not on and the whistle was not sounded. I was already blowing the horn when I could see this auto coming about 3/8ths of a mile from the crossing behind houses.We had a covered wagon in the lead and I had both horns blowing and the head light was on. On this divison someone hit an auto almost every day.So you looked in in both directions to see if any autos were close to use as a witness on the report.These women were at least 3/4 mile away from the crossing in their auto.The company paided tokeep away from the court cost. About a year before CSX-NS took over ConRail, a crossing accident in Ohio ConRail was proven correct in every aspect at this crossing but the jury wanted them to pay I think 2 million just on general principles. LEW
Johhny if you down at the side sill of boxcars thier should be some white reflective striping down a long that sill about eye level. I Know cause in some of the pictures I have taken that reflective striping has shown up on it in the camera flash. I know on the newer boxcars it has them. I seen a string of new BNSF boxcars with small reflective BNSF Emblems down on the sill. [ 10 June 2002, 16:23: Message edited by: Jack Doran ]
I would like to add that federal law only mandates crossbucks for a public road grade crossing to be properly protected. Anything beyond this is usually paid for by the community, NOT the railroad. However, the railroad installs and maintains all crossing, at every level of protection.
J.T. - The supreme court has ruled that a train always has the right of way over street traffic, pedestrians and even emergency vehicles. Crossbucks are legally a yield sign and pulling out in front of a train is a ticket for failure to yield if you happen to live through the crash. Going around gates and flashers is equivalent to running a red light or stop sign. When the gates are down, the road is closed even if there's no train in sight so fault should be fairly easy to determine. Since the train can't jump off the tracks to come after the people who get hit, I would thinks it would be kind of a no-brainer for the courts to figure out who's at fault. Unfortunately, it's never that easy because issues like headlights, horns, field of view, etc. come into play once the lawsuits start. Seems like it always has to be anyone's fault except the driver who made the mistake of pulling out in front of the train. As far as what kind of protection is placed on specific crossings, the state or locality determines what gets built based on traffic, speeds, visibility, cost etc. The state usually pays for the equipment then the RR maintains and repairs it. [ 13 June 2002, 20:57: Message edited by: Rule 281 ]
Rule, When I first started visiting Western Ohio about 15 years ago, everytime I was there someone had been killed by a train nearby (tv news not even covering other parts of Ohio unless it was really extreme) and everyone was calling for gates and lights on the "back roads" crossings. I think all but private crossings have them now. I don't disagree with that one bit , but as you say a crossbuck is a yield sign too! I was a city boy in the country and knew enough to slow down when you see a track coming up. What is wrong with people??????? I was doing about 50 one very early morning before sunrise and was heading to Marion for a day of railfanning when I came up on the RxR sign, slowed down and was surprised to see a dark frieght train doing about 50 MPH just in front of me. If I were doing 60 or 70 like some do, I'd have a hard time keeping my bumper away from those rolling trucks. Railroads should advertise safety more on television. It would reach more people. (That's a sad comment also). And what about when you see all the trailers and ads in the movies before the movie begins. How about a nasty photo of an accident on the big screen to shake people up. (Might cut down on the popcorn sales though. YEECH!)
One of the signal guys told me that they don't even install new crossing protection anymore unless it has gates. The days of just flashing lights and a crossbuck are over. I guess it's kind of all or nothing, you get the whole smash or just a sign. Sort of makes sense but it means putting up warnings is very expensive and you know that'll be a factor when they decide what crossings get the systems. I know what you mean about coming up on a crossing and finding it full of dark freight cars. Scotchlite on the sides would help and some of the cars and engines do have it. Trouble is, it's usually so dirty that it's almost invisible anyway. I've often wondered how many close calls have happened behind me when I was dragging a coal train through a slow order over those country road crossings. It's interesting that you mention being more aware of the crossings since you were from out of town and unfamiliar with the area. It's usually someone who lives nearby and uses the road every day that gets compacent because 'there's never a train there'. People get used to not seeing the trains, especially on secondary lines. I clipped the tail off a (fortunately unoccupied) pick up truck parked on the ballast one day at about 25 mph. When I went back to check out the damage, the owner was stunned that there would actually be a train on the railroad tracks. Who would've believed they'd let trains run on tracks right where he wanted to park???? He said he'd never seen one there before so must be that means there couldn't ever be one.
Rule, I'll never forget seeing that train moving in front of me in the pitch black. I saw the sign and was slowing anyway to (hopefully!) see if a train coming. My headlights would never have caught the train if I were doing 60 or better. And if you don't see it, you don't think it's there! It's funny that when I was once down at the Cross Harbor in Brooklyn, the engineer moving a lone boxcar into a siding between two buildings had to (blow my ear drums to pieces) blow his horn madly to get someone out of a warehouse to move his car off the tracks. The guy ran like heck to move his car! If you saw the condition of the cobblestone streets and the bent trackage right there, no one could have ever believed a train would be on that track! But it was! I was at a tractor pull in Gilmore City, Iowa once. There was a track nearby that I had seen a train on once before but thought it to be a fluke! Over the roar of the tractors you could hear the announcer callling, "Get off the tracks! The train is coming!" Well, people were camped out on the track because it was up high enough to see into the tractor pull without paying! Lawn chairs and coolers and people were scattering! the train came through a minute later and it was going a good 25-30 MPH. It's a good thing Iowa is pretty flat and someone saw the train coming! I was somewhere very rural and I was at a railroad museum when a conductor told me a funny story. Can't remember where though. He said they were running their Doodlebug down their rickity old track in the middle of the weeds in the middle of a forest when they saw a man with a camera taking pictures of the old tracks. He was an older man and the conductor said the man's jaw hit the ground when he heard something coming and turned to see the old railcar coming down the tracks! Not only had he ridden them as a kid, but was shocked to see anything on the rails! They gave him a ride too for free! But..........who knew something was going to come down those rails? Ya never know!!!!!!!!! Better safe than sorry!
A funny thing happened on the way to......... Years ago when the little VW Beetles were the car of choice, the Abilene Southern train came into the yard one night after picking up cars from several branch sidings. As the line of cars passed by someone noticed a pair of tail lights poking out from between two box cars. It seems that someone had parked the beetle square across the track somewhere, and walked away. No keys, and one was in the car. The guys figured that as the engine had backed up to kick a cut of cars off on one of the sidingings, one must have stuck a coupler right through the driver's window, and coasted on down to couple onto some cars beyond. When the engine came back to gather up the whole string, they had failed to make a walking check, which no one was going to admit of course. The guys figured maybe it was stolen and abandoned, or maybe a couple of kids were courting that should not have been together, or the owner was too embarrassed to admit he bent his car, who knows? How to get rid of the car and get out of trouble for not finding it before moving the train? It was decided to ignore it for a bit.....(someone was going to catch HE** for it!) But be that as it may, there was a crushed beetle coupled through both windows between two box cars! It had been dragged no telling how far, and it still had the tires and bumpers on it. They had a devil of a time getting the couplers open, but a chain was used to pull the beetle lose, then it was pulled off the right of way by a pickup, and shoved into the weeds out of sight. The beetle was still there the next summer. I don't think anyone ever claimed it. Besides, who would want a beetle that was only 3 feet wide?
JohnnyT. - Funny you should mention tractor pulls...one of the local fire depts. in my neck of the woods sponsors a big pull every summer with exactly the same scenario as you describe. The track is on a high bank that makes perfect natural bleachers for the crowd. Lots of super modifed tractors that you'd never hear a train over. I happened to get called for a coal train the day of their last pull and knew from the billboards that they would be out there so I was ready for them. I slowed way down and layed on the horn coming around a curve and under a road bridge just before the park where they were going at it. Man did those people MOVE down off the track. Suprise suprise. I spoke to the fire chief later and suggested that they keep people off the tracks and notify the RR when they do this again. If I hadn't known about it just by chance, I would have sailed around the curve in #8 and with the pullers running, they'd never have heard the horn in time. I wonder who's fault that would have been?
Slightly morbid humor was likely to have been heard in the cab after the fact, but it isn't funny the way people just take railroads for granted. I'm sure it would be most unpleasent for all to have multiple fatalities at the local VFD tractor pull......... "Oh dar ain't bin a train on that track since Gran' Pappy 'twer a youngin'"! "Hot dang, corn on the cob! Looka that der train!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Hey Watash, those guys squished that Beetle like a Bug huh?
And today a guy in Montana drove around the lowered gates, through the red lights and bells and got T-boned. He is no longer with us. Another jumped from a platform in LA into the path of a train. Then there was the gravel truck in the midwest. I guess to the general public railroads are fiction, they don't exist. At least not until they get the surprise of their (soon to be ended) lives and see the train.
Getting back to the original question, here's the deal in Tennessee. Under state law, motorists failing to stop at a crossing where lights or a combination of lights and gates can be cited for failure to stop at a stop signal, just as if they had run a stop sign or red light. If the motorist is involved in a collision at any grade crossing, they can be cited for failure to yield right of way. Our railroad has always insisted that in any grade crossing incident involving our trains that the motorist be cited for failure to yield right of way since that helps to head off insurance claims and lawsuits generally, or aids in getting a lawsuit thrown out of court. There was only one incident where a railroad employee was arrested for his part in a grade crossing incident. That was a train vs, school bus collision in Spring City, TN over thirty years ago. In that case, both the bus driver and train engineer were arrested and charged with manslaughter as eleven high school students died in the incident. The reason for the engineer's arrest was that initially it was not clear whether he had been properly running the train. Also, there were railroad cars on a siding that were at first thought to have blocked the driver's view of the train. Charges against the engineer were dropped once it was learned from a surviving student that the driver had seen the train well in advance and said that he could beat the train. There have been some improvements made to some crossings that are experimental but offer some hope. Rockwood, Tennessee has one particular crossing that has had a much higher incident rate (both near misses and collisions) than others in that city and the surrounding area. The crossing was alread furnished with lights and gates, so the city added large metal posts along the centerline. These extend about 150 feet on either side of the crossing and are intended to deny the motorist the opportunity to drive around the lowered gates while allowing vehicles already in the crossing to escape. The barriers have been in place for a few months and have already made a noticable difference in the incident rates at that crossing. In fact, the state DOT liked the improvements to the degree that they repaid the city for the installation costs once the posts had been placed and the incident rate data collected. Also, many rural crossings in Tennessee and Georgia now have regulatory stop signs in addition to cross bucks. Now to the question of when lights and gates first appeared at railroad crossings. The earliest predecessors of today's grade crossing signals made their first appearance back when the horseless carriage started to become more refined and began appearing on America's roads in increasing numbers. As for the question of whether horns, bells or headlights were properly displayed and used prior to an incident, that's why locomotives now have event recorders. [ 18 June 2002, 17:44: Message edited by: Alan Walker ]
Another question is why aren't the gates longer? It's a complicated situation but longer gates would stop people from going around them. Anyone know why the gates are not as long as the road is wide? I'd rather sit in traffic or make a U turn then have to go around gates and yes I have done it before. It makes me nervous while others just don't care about their lives. There must be a solution to getting emergency vehicles through if need be also.
