Question- SH, LH front- does it matter?

BnO_Hendo May 17, 2005

  1. BnO_Hendo

    BnO_Hendo TrainBoard Member

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    I agree with you William. It's like running the old steamers. I never could understand how they could see what was in front of them with the boiler sticking way out in front. Don't get me wrong- I love steam. But it had to be a bugger trying to see down the track with the engine in the way of your view. Same thing running LHF. Seems to me the best way to avoid a collision is having the best view possible.
    Copyright 2008 Jerry DeBene
     
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  2. Grey One

    Grey One TrainBoard Supporter

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    Long long ago I heard that on the trans Austrailian Railroad the engineers need to enter a code ever x number of minutes or the trains come to a stop. Was this true? Is it stll?
    Copyright 2008 Jerry DeBene
     
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  3. Hytec

    Hytec TrainBoard Member

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    Please delete this post. I screwed up....! [​IMG]

    [ June 23, 2005, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: Hytec ]
    Copyright 2008 Jerry DeBene
     
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  4. Hytec

    Hytec TrainBoard Member

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    It was true with the early New York Central E- and F- units in the 40's and 50's. Although the engineer had to press a Reset button instead of entering a code, and he had 30 seconds or the train would dump all air and go into full emergency. I guess management assumed that the diesels were so easy to operate compared to steamers, that the engineer might fall asleep during the run.
    Copyright 2008 Jerry DeBene
     
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  5. sk

    sk TrainBoard Member

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    All diesel locomotives are designed to run either long or short hood forward. The problem, as mentioned several times, is the engineer's visibility and confort factor. A qualified employee is a requirement in long hood operation to watch for signals, crossings and other impediments to safe operation. The guy on the other side of the cab becomes the eyes of the engineer and his ability to comunicate conditions quickly to the engineer is necessary for the safe operation of the train.

    I have never cosidered running long hood forward as "uncomfortable". Do it enough and it becomes natural (I have done it in both freight and scheduled commuter service). The only real problem is breathing the locomotive exhaust as it drifts down alongside the long hood, especially on the Alcos. That is the worst part of running long hood out.

    When we used the old CNJ GPs for steaming and sanding the rail in leaf season the engine was equipped with a steam boiler to generate the steam to clean the rails. The boiler had to be shuy down when we ran short hood forward or the fumes from the boiler could asphyxiate the crew. Bad for morale.

    Steve

    Copyright 2008 Jerry DeBene
     
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  6. Grey One

    Grey One TrainBoard Supporter

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    Did you mean short or long hood forward? [​IMG]
    Oh, wait, the steam boiler was under the short hood. got it. thanks.
    Copyright 2008 Jerry DeBene
     
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  7. Rule 281

    Rule 281 TrainBoard Member

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    Yep, I run CN power often and like having that rear speedo. Very useful when making a long shove move, which we frequently do. Some NS units have those rear wall speedos also but they stay on all the time. No handy switch to turn them off.
    Copyright 2008 Jerry DeBene
     
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  8. sk

    sk TrainBoard Member

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    Originally posted by Grey One:
    Did you mean short or long hood forward? [​IMG]
    Oh, wait, the steam boiler was under the short hood. got it. thanks.

    Steve - The Grey One,
    When running Long Hood Forward, the fumes from the steam boiler would not draft into the cab. You just had to suck up the diesel exhaust from that nice sounding EMD 567 prime mover (geez, I miss that sound). In either direction you were breathing in noxious fumes.

    Maybe that was why the Conductor and machinist "appeared"" to be sleeping during the assignment. They were actually "unconscious" victims of the killer exhaust fumes.

    And all this time I thought they were sleeping.

    How terribly insensitive I was. :(

    Steve (Also Grey)
    Copyright 2008 Jerry DeBene
     
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  9. Sten

    Sten TrainBoard Member

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    Please delete this post. I screwed up....! [​IMG] </font>[/QUOTE]that I've never actually heard of, but we do have Vigilance control over here.
    There are 2 types (and it is open to debate)
    The type I have seen in freight locomotives is an air based system which bleeds air out of a small air tank (not brake pipe air) the engineer has to keep the air pressure between 2 points if it drops to low it makes a sound and the driver hits a button to reset the count, if not the system will release brake pipe air and stop the train, same as if the driver held the button down then it would pass the other point and release brake pipe air (to stop circumvention)

    CityRail/Countrylink employ a task linked vigilance system which is design to detect "lack of movement" while there is a reset button, the vigo can be reset by performing tasks normal to driving. such as applying the brakes or moving the master controller (1 notch only - as moving from off to 4th - only 4 on suburban trains - could occur if the driver was having a heart attack) activating headlights/horn etc and on some trains a foot pedal) again the system is designed that holding down the button speeds up the process.
    The stages are
    1st stage warning - vigo buttons start flashing
    2nd stage - a bell will start ringing
    3rd stage - emergency dump of brake pipe air
    4th stage - air drop complete flashing lights will steady and vigo can be reset.
    Once the third stage starts the air must drop to zero before reset can be done.

    We also have on CityRail trains the deadman. the master controller is fitted with a microswitch which must be held in a position if not the brake pipe air will reduce until it is returned to the correct pos.
    The tangara type trains also have a deadman footpedal which the driver held in a position to supress the deadman. After the Waterfall disaster we won't see that on any train again as the dead drivers weight was enough to supress the deadman and vigo hadn't been installed on the train.
    CountryLink (and QR I believe) are currently trialling a activity monitor. it looks like a wrist watch and monitors pulses in the body and is linked to the trains systems. if the "wrist watch detects a lower pulse to suggest that the driver is asleep or no pulse - dead the system activates the train brakes and stops the train.
    Copyright 2008 Jerry DeBene
     
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  10. Flash Blackman

    Flash Blackman Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Sten:

    Any stories that these malfunction? Or get bypassed?

    BTW, we have a vigilance system on the Boeing 747 aircraft. You have to touch a switch every 15 minutes or it sends a loud signal. (to wake you up?) It is only on long range aircraft, I think. Domestic flights have much more activity than to cruise for 10-14 hours at a time.

    [ July 02, 2005, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: sapacif ]
    Copyright 2008 Jerry DeBene
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 31, 2008
  11. Flash Blackman

    Flash Blackman Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Good one! ;) Welcome to TB.

    [ July 02, 2005, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: sapacif ]
    Copyright 2008 Jerry DeBene
     
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  12. Sten

    Sten TrainBoard Member

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    For the freight operators they would get into such a habit of whacking a button everynow and then that if the other half moved in the bed she would get a whack too ;)
    the deadman can be bypassed but any evidence that it occurs the driver is sacked. Tasked linked vigo can't be circumvented as the vigilance MCB is linked to the dump valve so trip the MCB loose the air. If the vigo does fail there is a small red button to far away from the driver called the Emergency push button, which the guard or other qualified worked holds down while the driver is powering. Thankfully there is also a book called the OMET or Operations Manual Electric Trains (or OMDT - for diesel trains) with a lovely section (my favourite :D ) OMET200 minimum standards, in the event of a safety system failing the passengers are turfed out at the next stop and the train runs MT to the neares maintainence centre.

    I don't know too much about the watch thing as it is in trial period and so far will not be applied to Metropolitan Ops.

    One other thing we have that can stop a train if all the above fails is Automatic Train Stop.
    All passenger trains entering the Metro must have ATS (loco hauled services exempt because of the 2 crew up front where as the guard/SPA on CityRail/Countrylink is in the back or middle of the train. The trains are fitted with a little arm called a trip that hangs down under the front of the train which is connected to the dump valve. The signals have a box next to them with another arm. if the signal is at stop the arm is raised and if the train passes the signal the arm and the trip collide - so to speak and the train looses all brake pipe air to come to a stand.

    just on the original post about codes to move trains. There is a method of safeworking (a system to authorise train movements) used in South Australia and Western NSW called Train Order. It is a semi computer/written type of authority. how it works (I hope don't use it so not to sure) is the train controller issues a verbal authority to the driver who writes it down. The controller enter the info into the computer system which generates a code which the controller passes to the driver who notes it on the order form. once the order is taken down the contoller enters the code to apply the authority on the computer. The computer prevents orders that conflict with one onother - 2 trains on single line. When the train reaches the location specified on the train order. he notifies control and reads the code out which the controller enters to release the authority on that section. without the code word no train can enter that section. but it is a method of safeworking not a method of vigilance.
    Copyright 2008 Jerry DeBene
     
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  13. Sten

    Sten TrainBoard Member

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    it would be hard ot have a proper vigo system on an aircraft, other than
    make a loud noise what can it do - stop the plane?? :eek: [​IMG]
    Copyright 2008 Jerry DeBene
     
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  14. sk

    sk TrainBoard Member

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    Originally posted by sapacif:

    Any stories that these malfunction? Or get bypassed?

    BTW, we have a vigilance system on the Boeing 747 aircraft. You have to touch a switch every 15 minutes or it sends a loud signal. (to wake you up?) It is only on long range aircraft, I think. Domestic flights have much more activity than to cruise for 10-14 hours at a time.

    Flash,
    Where there is an annoying sound there will be attempts to negate it.

    When Transit's Comet V cab cars were delivered they had piecing alarms for wheel slip and handbrake applied indications. The problem was, beside the extremely high volume, that the engines pushing the train were wheel slip crazy and the handbrake "on" indications from the cars in the consist were false but the sensors sent the indiciations to the alarm panel. The cab became a dangerous place with the irritating distraction of the audible alarms.

    Transit did nothing for two years while the engineers suffered. Finally, an article was uploaded onto the Hoboken Division website telling the mechanical department how to silence the alarms. From the chaos that followed a program was almost instantly enacted for the quieting of the alarms and almost all cab cars have been so modified.

    Interestingly, when I called Quantum, who manufacters the alarms, I asked them why the high decible level. The design engineer said that it had to be high because it was an alarm. I tried to explain that this alarm was informational and not an indication of a engine flameout on a 767 at 39,000 feet. He didn't get it.

    Even now I find alarm grills that are stuffed with paper or gum or such but that does nothing to quiet an alarm. BTW, tampering with a safety device is a federal crime.

    Steve
    Copyright 2008 Jerry DeBene
     
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  15. Sten

    Sten TrainBoard Member

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    the vigo system on CityRail's fleet in second stage emitts a dinging sound which funnily enough sounds like the bell the guard gives for right away.. We are supposed to give long bells per regulations but imagine being on a train for 4 hours stopping all stations (over 100 stops) and hearing a long RING!!! every 2 mins, so we give short ones, well after the vigo was fitted a train on a platform went to second stage cycle and the driver took it as an ok and took off with the doors open. so they tried to tell us long bells that didn't work so now they are fitting bell extenders which lengthens the ring time, what a joke all the had to do was make the dinging sound a beeping sound or whatever and problem solved.
    Copyright 2008 Jerry DeBene
     
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  16. SecretWeapon

    SecretWeapon TrainBoard Member

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    Hey,
    I still hear those alarms in my sleep & I haven't worked in over 1 year :( [​IMG]
    God I miss them [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Copyright 2008 Jerry DeBene
     
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  17. Nick Leinonen

    Nick Leinonen TrainBoard Member

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    you can bypass the system, but it is very unsafe to do so...

    i had an older IC unit i was doing my sch B brake test on and it was equipped with a deadman pedal... you let off the pedal and the whistle in the cab went on, but it didn't drop load... i was knuckled to a dash 9 on the shop tracks that had full brakes on, and for giggles, i loaded the old ic to N3 and let the deadman pedal go.... and i sat there for over a minute with that IC trying to drag the dash 9 with the whistle blowing... it would not go into penalty application... i don't know if they got around to fixing it as my shift ended before they had it back in the shop, and next day it was gone...
    Copyright 2008 Jerry DeBene
     
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  18. sk

    sk TrainBoard Member

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    Originally posted by Sten:
    For the freight operators they would get into such a habit of whacking a button everynow and then that if the other half moved in the bed she would get a whack too ;)


    Sten,
    There was a time, or so I am told, when Amtrak AEM-7s had a touch pad on the control desk to acknowledge the alertor. Enterprising engineers would place a small flashlight on the control desk and as the engine rocked down the track the flashlight would roll back and forth accross the pad acknowledging the alertor without the engineer toughing the pad. This pad was later removed.

    Freight engines during Conrail had a "whisker" acknowledger that the engineer would swipe at to acknowledge the alertor. NJ Transit road engines now have a foot pedal or button on the control desk for that purpose. It is also possible to acknowledge the alertor by ringing the bell, blowing the horn, moving the throttle, and a couple of other movements that let the engine know you are still paying attention.

    It is no longer possible to circumvent the alertor unless someone actually removes the speaker from the panel on which it is mounted. This practice violates federal law for tampering with a safety device.

    Steve
    Copyright 2008 Jerry DeBene
     
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  19. Grey One

    Grey One TrainBoard Supporter

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    Thanks guys. My simple question such great and thorough answers!
    Copyright 2008 Jerry DeBene
     
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  20. Rule 281

    Rule 281 TrainBoard Member

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    So that's why she's so grouchy in the morning... I've probably been slapping her every 40 seconds. :D :D :D
    Copyright 2008 Jerry DeBene
     
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