Problems upgrading Marklin 8864 (similar to 8800) to 5-pole motor

ignacj Oct 19, 2010

  1. ignacj

    ignacj TrainBoard Member

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    I have two 8864 (small diesel switchers internally identical to 8800) that I attempted to upgrade to 5-pole motor. I followed instructions on zscale.org and used recommended parts - 209454 armature and 89871 brushes. Upgraded loco gives no signs of life when on tracks or when connected to a 9V battery directly. The armature spins freely and worm-gear engages wheels without binding. The current (actually voltage) is present on brushes. This very same loco runs OK with 3-pole motor. I tried second 5-pole armature and set of brushes with exactly the same result - should I say lack of!
    I purchased quite a few locos of ebay that were gummed up and needed some major cleaning before they would run, and eventually they would all come to life, but I'm totally dumbfounded with 8864 and 5-pole armature. Any ideas or suggestions are most welcome.

    Best,
    ig
     
  2. DSZ&N

    DSZ&N TrainBoard Member

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    Hi IG,
    I had the same problem when trying to upgrade an MTL mogul. It is just an 8803 with black wheels. The only thing I could come up with is the commutator is at an angle where the part on zscale.org is stright with the shaft not sure if that was the problem and got very little help on the subject. Just courious does the armature end with a -E mine did and no one could say if it was diferent. I never got mine to work. And finally just bought an 88050 I think that was the number and used that chassie.
     
  3. SJ Z-man

    SJ Z-man TrainBoard Member

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    I don't think you can just change the armature/brushes. Isn't the external metal core also different?
    .
     
  4. ignacj

    ignacj TrainBoard Member

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    DSZ&N,

    Yes, my armature has an -E at the end and commutator is slanted as well! This was purchased through AJCKIDS and was described among other as a 8864 upgrade.
    If you look at ebay item 230538278530, it's a same loco (blue 8804 model) with upgraded 5-pole armature that is slanted!
    My only other thought is that maybe -E armature needs different brushes or "magnet enclosure" that covers armature needs to be upgraded?
     
  5. ignacj

    ignacj TrainBoard Member

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    Jeff,

    I might be using wrong term here. By armature I mean the rotating part of the motor - image and instructions are here:
    Do it Yourself in Z-scale: Replacing 3-Pole Motors with 5-Pole Motors
    The only other thing is plastic magnet enclosure that covers the armature. Perhaps the new slanted armature/commutator design requires a new magnet enclosure as well?

    Best,
    ig
     
  6. DSZ&N

    DSZ&N TrainBoard Member

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    Ya I see what you mean. It also looks like a 3 pole mag housing I wonder what brushes he used? I wonder if he would share his secrete.:tb-err:
     
  7. ignacj

    ignacj TrainBoard Member

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    DSZ,

    I just got reply from the ebay seller.... he is using same parts as we do! I asked him if there is a trick to it...
     
  8. ZFRANK

    ZFRANK TrainBoard Member

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    Don't have any experience with converting to 5 polers, but I am pretty sure that the complete motor has to be replaced. Rotor , stator (magnet) and brushes. If one uses the 3 pole brushes on a 5 pole collector, it will short the two tracks.

    Check out next site as it could be an alternative to the Märklin 5 poler.
    http://www.nigellawton009.com/MarklinZ.html

    I am just waiting to get an old BR89 I bought, to use the chassis for a SW1. So I might have to go through one of these two conversions too.
     
  9. ignacj

    ignacj TrainBoard Member

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    Frank,
    We are replacing both rotor and brushes with 5-pole rotor and brushes specifically made for 5-pole motor. There is no magnet-enclosure upgrade for this model. 5-pole motor should run with two-magnet enclosure same as the 3-pole version.
    ig
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2010
  10. DSZ&N

    DSZ&N TrainBoard Member

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    IG,
    I was just informed there might be a film on the pick up of the armature. It is recommended to install brushes and spin by hand for a couple of min. I have some scotchbrite I'm going to try. I'll let you know how it goes. the -E has to do with exporting the part.
     
  11. david f.

    david f. TrainBoard Supporter

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    the Nn3 Yahoo Group has done MANY of these, but most of them used a new and different motor than the marklin. very quiet and smoot running. you can access the site at yahoo groups, but i'm not sure you can access the resource page that has all the "how to" info. i'm sure if you ask you'll get a response from those who have succeeded in remotoring these chasses.
    dave f.
     
  12. ignacj

    ignacj TrainBoard Member

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    DSZ,

    You are right. I got same answer from multiple sources and after spinning the armature by hand for few minutes, the loco came to life. You do still have to crank the throttle all the way up and spin commutator with toothpick to get it going. I'm still in process of breaking it in but slow speed already looks much better then 3-pole counterpart!!

    ig
     
  13. Z_thek

    Z_thek TrainBoard Member

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    There are other problems if it doesn't run smoothly at the first time. I've checked the installation procedure on David Karp's site and one very important note is missing, and actually his method of the worm re-installation is almost the prescription for a major error. The worm has one flat, shiny surface at one end around the hole, and a smaller, more random, and not perfectly flat surface on the other. The larger flat surface should go against the bronze bushing inserted into the chassis. Because of the way the worm re-installation is suggested, very likely the worm is placed on a flat surface on the more stable larger flat end, so the uneven surface is installed against the bushing. This causes excessive binding and many times actually loosen the bushing itself. There is an important note on the web-site about the installation of worm. The vertical play of the motor shaft should be the bare minimum, less than Marklin's standard play is better. Another important area to check is the wheel alignment. The diesels, unlike their steam counterparts have the drive rods attached to the front and the rear drivers, one tooth offset on the gears makes huge difference. Also, check the tension of brushes. Smaller tension (to the point) is always better.
     
  14. DSZ&N

    DSZ&N TrainBoard Member

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    IG,
    Thats great news I'm really happy to hear about your success.:thumbs_up:

    Z_thek,
    Thank you for telling us about that took a close look at the worm and there is a big difference on the ends. That would have been a horrible mistake:tb-shocked:
    david f.,
    Can't wait to take a look at what they have done hope it will fit in a Z engine:tb-biggrin:
     
  15. DSZ&N

    DSZ&N TrainBoard Member

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    Quick Tip

    I ended up using a can of dust off. With the shell off I pointed the "straw" on one side of the motor winding and hit it with the air for 3-4 sec ( got spinning pretty fast) and the motor fired right up.:tb-cute::thumbs_up:
     
  16. ignacj

    ignacj TrainBoard Member

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    Zthek,

    Good tips. I will recheck the worm gear and reinstall if needed. Along the same line, do you know if the worm gear on 8800 chassis is same as one on 8864 diesel loco?

    Thanks
     
  17. Z_thek

    Z_thek TrainBoard Member

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    Just to clarify, the little screw like thing is the "worm", the gear moved by the worm is called "worm gear". I'm sure they're identical in both types of locomotives. Keep in mind, in the diesel locomotive you have a pair of wheel with worm gear, and another worm gear on small shaft. They are "seated" differently, and should be installed where they were originally placed to avoid some serious friction.
     
  18. ignacj

    ignacj TrainBoard Member

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    What do you mean by worm gears stead differently? I don't think there is but one way to install these. Am I missing something?

    One of my 8864s had bushing fall out after I pulled the worm off. I suspect this was loose before the upgrade as the engine had hard time moving backward - it was more of a stuttering then a movement. This was one of the reasons why I decided to upgrade to 5-pole thinking stuttering might be related to worm and/or armature. The upgrade did not correct the stuttering problem (bushing was red-loctited in place) so I'm sending the loco for a service since I see no other at-home repair options.

    ig

     
  19. Z_thek

    Z_thek TrainBoard Member

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    "Seated" means a similar condition to the results of lapping. Two surfaces are better matched after certain time of use. The engagement of worm is different from the gear to gear engagement. The engaging part of worm is an angled spinning surface, while the tooth surface of gears are parallel with the axle. Now, in the case of your diesel locomotive, the front and rear axles have identical looking gears, but during the use, one of them was driven by the worm, the other by a spur gear. The front and rear wheel sets are inter-changeable, but the gears are not matched when they're installed reversed, therefore you'll deal with higher friction within the mechanism.
     
  20. Cleantex

    Cleantex TrainBoard Member

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    This bushing is easy to destroy, if you dont take enough care or have not the right
    tools to take of the worm, it's a very delicat operation. Therefore Märklin advice
    to let it do by their service. I also learned by killing.
    Best is to let hang the rotor freely, heat the worm slightly up and drive out with
    a 0.9mm (0.04 inch) pin. Anyway all pressure other than vertical on the bushing
    will get it out of shape.
    As support for the chassis I use a nylon screw with slots for the magnetic case pins.
     

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    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 22, 2010

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