Pre-Order Perplexity

Hello everyone,

It is a topic that has probably been discussed on every model railroad forum on the net to infinitum. That is, the subject of advance reservations (pre-orders) for rolling stock. So the last thing I am sure anybody wants to read is a rehash of previous opinions or to hear about retailer xyz who did a great or less than adequate job.

There are a lot of bright people on this list so I am certain that many of you know that the parameters for production of model railroad goods in China has been effected by contractual and labor related factors. The result for many manufacturers are challenges causing product shortage, longer production/delivery times and increasing costs. This all gets passed to the marketplace, your wallet and your layout

So the purpose of this post is to inquire about where you good folks are on placing advance reservations for merchandise, given the current state of the industry and our retracted economy. What are your plans moving forward? How might the pre-order or advance reservation process be improved? What are your some of your expectations from manufacturers and dealers?

Your thoughtful answers will help not only my company as we consider offering this service to our customers, but every other dealer and person in the product stream who reads this thread, from manufacturer to consumer. For those interested in providing another response to our business specifically, we have a Survey at our web site on this subject and invite your input.

Regardless of what our differences are, our passion for this hobby brings us together to this forum. In the spirit of strengthening the business side of our past time and helping the people who’s livelihoods depend on it, share with the world what you think about how you buy your trains now and how you plan to spend for them in the future. While no one can predict market trends, your opinion can influence it and will be helpful to the hobby as a result.

Respectfully,

Roger Bernhardt
President
RailroadMerchant.com LLC

Visit our store to see our new features at RailroadMerchant.com

 

One thing I have learned is that this hobby makes room for all kinds. There are the scroungers who pick up bargains and cast-offs by the boxload because that is how they fuel both their passion and their hobby. There are guys with fairly steady disposable income who largely buy, admire, use for a week, box up, place in tote, and look for another bargain...never anything like MSRP. They have been at it for a while, have tons, and don't mind parting with a couple hundred every other week for the right bargain. Pre-order would be rare for them.

The guys who model only one or two roads are more likely to pre-order, but they are just as likely to already be in the brass market if they have specific tastes. If they aren't GN, SP, PRR, UP, NYC, CSX, KS, CN, CP, and maybe five other odds 'n sods, they have to wait three and four years to get the next offering, and it almost always means ordering or auctions.

I have an eclectic taste for various roads, and not for all the locomotives they ever ran. Just one or two from the six different roads so far for me, so I don't buy more than one or two engines a year. It often means I am looking for a refurbished deal, a new in box auction item, or I seem to be willing to wait for new issues these days. I am expecting to have to fork out a horse-choking wad for both a Sunset CPR 2-10-4 and a BLI brass Hybrid UP 4-12-2 within 8 weeks if their just-updated delivery schedule is going to work for them. I placed my order for the Selkirk three years ago, and for the UP 9000 two years ago. Meaning I wanted to add to my small stable of 'really cool, gotta have' locomotives, and wanted to assure receipt. So, I accepted the pre-order mode with the usual discount offered up front off of the MSRP.

You'll find some long-in-the-tooth guys who still spend a packet each year but who won't buy until the last few are moved quickly on sale. Then, there are guys like me who have somewhat specific tastes who identify what they want, and who jump on the chance when the announcement comes, even if the item is delayed by many months...two or three times.

Good luck with your research.

 

There was a day when the merchant stocked his shelves for what he/she thought would sell. Now it seems most merchants are relying on the consumer/customer to make commitments to better insure they sell out so there would be no excess stock. This leaves the casual shopper with few good items to select from. I do not care to pre-order and will likely never do as so many stories have been told of delays and wait times. I will not leave my dismal amount of hobby money hung up as it must be optimized as best I can.
I know there is a price to doing business but I have seen shops who will not order anything new until they sell the stuff that nobody wants first. That I don't get. Discount the trash and move on to something that makes money.

 

To me, John has presented two sides of the story.

The days gone by where the consumer could buy off the shelf like you do at a supermarket vs today's need for a small business to maintain a cashflow and maximise the return on outlay in the shortest time.

If I want something bad enough that is being advertised as an expression of interest, ie the pre-order, then I will place a pre-order. Otherwise, I will operate on the I'll have it if I want it if it's available system.

 

I don't pre-order and have no plans to.

 

Roger,May I be frank?

Simply put I do not preorder..I found most on line shops wisely order enough to cover sales to guys like me..

Why is this in the world of preorders?

I'm retired and have a limited hobby budget and need to select wisely and not with "order now or lament later" mentality which is good for the manufacturer(quick capital turnover) but,bad for the consumer in many ways..

So,if you want my hobby dollars stock extra so,I can budget that new car or locomotive in my next order.

 

I do not normally preorder, but since I model one road I will do it if there is something I would like to have for my layout. Right now I have enough loco's and other rolling stock for my layout so my purchases are not as much as they were in the past. I do run everything I have on a rotating basis. When I remove a loco for maintenance I replace it with another.
I don't have one company I deal with, but I never preorder with a company that bills my credit card when I place the order ahead of the item being available.

 

I never have and never will pre-order, I have been in business myself and never had anyone pay for my inventory before I needed to decide how many to purchase, it's part of doing business. If I can't touch it or see it in person I usually don't buy it. I have seen and heard too many stories where people have pre ordered and then waited months past the delivery date to get the item they already paid for. If I buy it I want it now heck at my age I don't plan that far ahead, I don't even buy green bananas anymore!

 

To date, I have not pre-ordered anything, and I'm not likely to in the foreseeable future. It would have to be something in the "gotta have no matter what" category, and I'm not really that sort of buyer.

Some random thoughts on what kinds of things might turn me into a pre-order buyer.

Two basic "principle" problems I have with pre-ordering of any kind... (1) buying a "pig in a poke" sight unseen, and (2) tying up my personal capital for an extended time, especially when production delays stretch that time on and on and on.

On the first point, some manufacturers do better than others on this point. I don't know how to address it other than (a) sharing as much as possible in terms of pictures of 3D models and/or pre-production samples, and (b) offering some kind of guarantee/warranty for unsatisfied purchasers. The obvious downside to (b) is abuse by unreasonable rivet counters... as I said, I don't really know the best answer here.

On the second point, pre-ordering in this context is essentially giving the mfg a short-term loan to cover development and production costs... or in another sense, turning the company into something of a cooperative (seeing the pre-order as a small investment, rather than a loan). Loans and investments usually come with some promise of a return.

Again, not sure how to address this, and not having looked deeply, not sure what's already been done, but a few thoughts... delays seem to be the killer. I'll gladly pre-order something I want if I know for sure when I'll get it. So most of the ideas revolve around tightening up the inducement for the mfg to maintain schedule, or reward the faithful for not backing out. Transparency - things like maybe an "orders thermometer or gas-gauge" like folks doing fundraisers do... show how close you are to getting the minimum order quantity - shows when things are being delayed because you don't have enough "takers" yet... Maybe if you miss the delivery date, the pre-order folks (or maybe just the earliest sign-ons) get a 1% discount for each month or quarter of slip... Progress notifications... I work with a customer who does metal parts finishing. They have a system where their customers can see exactly where their order is in the process (incoming dock, cleaning, painting, grinding, packaging, shipping, whatever). It very much helps the end customer understand - and thus accept - delays and problems. Some similar sort of status update, even when things are going well.

I understand the desire of the manufacturers to (a) guarantee at least some sales in advance, and (b) drum up the capital to cover the development and manufacturing costs, especially given the very low volumes in this industry.

Just some thoughts. Don't know what value they are.

 

To correct your conclusion, while increasing costs get passed on to the marketplace, they do not necessarily get passed on to my wallet or layout. To many (or at least me) this is not something like gas or food. It's is a hobby, and it's usually the first thing to get cut when budgets tighten. I point this out because I think it's a very important factor in the pre-order issue.

My plans for pre-orders and advanced reservations are heavily motivated by my comment above. While I enjoy this hobby, my participation in it is not a necessity. If I can't afford it, then I don't spend. If pre-orders drive the cost of something up (as they have a tendency to do), then I simply will do without it.

 

I am not an apologist for the current trend of pre-ordering, particularly since I have only done it three times now and have only one item to show for it. It is not for the person who likes immediate tactile feedback once a transation has been completed.

However, about tying up funds. It may be the case with some providers that you will have to part with an up-front reserve; I believe this to be the case for many brass dealers, although they probably know a number of customers each who purchase many engines from them and whom they will spare on the basis of their record of purchasing from them. I know one such person. For those of us who are willing to purchase non-brass/brass hybrid locomotives, one enterprise will require the princely sum of one cent as a deposit on an engine commanding a price of about $600. Not too shabby, and hardly onerous.

 

Crandell makes a good point, but in order to assure one is ready to buy the item one needs to have said cash in hand at the mysterious time of actual distribution. So in the end the money has to sit idle and ready, tied up. Now if I had a good amount of disposable income I may do a pre-order depending on the item.

 

Don't really see what the problem is with pre-order. I am also on a fixed income which the monkeys in Washington seem hell-bent to seriously hurt if not destroy.

However, my pre-orders go to what in fact has become my LHS. I try to keep up with new offerings and if it fits they have a pre-order system that allows me to place my order and on arrival at their store, they advise me of same. I've used it approximately 10 to 12 imes over the past 2 or 3 years and am very happy with the results.

Of course my modelling efforts are confined to one decade and 3 railroads so perhaps if one has eclectic tastes this might not work for them.

 

Pardon my french........but I think "pre-order" is a pain in the a$$. I am disabled, as are a couple of the other responders, and I can't tie my dollars up for an unknown period of time. I recently had the experience of pre-ordering two "cabeese" that I wanted about a month ahead of their "expected" release. Well, that went on for four! months. Since it was not a significant amount, it didn't really matter much, but had it been the cost of two locomotives, it would have strained the budget. As the economy, and my health, both grow worse, it appears I may actually be run out of the hobby.

 

I successfully pre-ordered one item many years ago. It was a rare item unique to my system and intents, thus I had no qualms with pre-ordering. Normally my philosophy is that I have a general artistic concept of where I am going with my layout. Then if I should come across an item that strikes my fancy at a trade show, in a magazine, or as the result of discussions on various forums, I buy it. Otherwise I buy something close and modify, or fabricate from scratch, or do without.

To me, this is a hobby that develops based on my whims. It is not a mistress that demands to be satisfied with specific medium and high cost items that are available only through pre-order.

Now what I consider totally unethical are the manufacturers who will advertise publically that a specific product is available, implying that it is on the shelf ready for shipment. Then I, or my LHS order the item only to find that the manufacturer has placed the ads to determine interest and potential volume before committing to production, or in one case even to detail design. I agree this is not the pre-order process, but it is market research at the expense of a consumer's trust and confidence, which is worse.

 

I look at it this way, while there are many , many things that I would LIKE to have, there are few things that I HAVE to have right away. If company A only makes a few thousand of something and I really want it, It will show up somewhere eventually . I just put aside something in my hobby fund.
BUT if its something I really really want, yes I have been known to preorder (once or twice) .....Mike

 

I have not done pre-order, but not for any of the excellent reasons already given. I am a "touchy-feely" buyer. By that I mean I like to see what the product looks like in both quality and detail. When ordering a product not yet manufactured you assume it will look like the artist rendering, or prototype, or even actual picture but this may not be the case. Brand reputation may go a long way to assure some amount of success, but it is hard to argue one way or the other when the product is in your hands for evaluation before handing over your cash.

 

As a senior citizen, I don't do pre-orders. By the time they eventually become available, I might not be around.

 

The responses in this thread have been solid, quality insight and I thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. I know of at least one manufacturer who is taking great interest in what you are saying and although the value of your comments may be difficult to measure, I can assure you they matter.

I also wish to thank all of you who have responded to the Survey at our site. We have had close to 100 responses so far and the results are fascinating. When the poll is concluded, I will share with you what seems to be a common bone of contention in the pre-order process.

In the mean time, back to the real market experts...all of you.

Roger